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Schwarz out.

Started by zzamora, May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM

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Lighthouse

Before we go down the line of saying Stockdale is untried and Swart a better keeper. I will point out simply that the goals last night could have been saved by an in form Swart. Now that isn't saying the moves that led to the shots shouldn't  have been stopped long before. But Swart was slow to react and flappy.

Now the real discussion is how far has Swart been protected by our very good defence up until now? Stockdale may not be the answer. Yes he gets better the less we play him but let us remember the Swart of two seasons ago compared to now. Is he as good or that much worse.

One game doesn't change anything except to reinforce our weakness. Not the worst culprit maybe but 4 out of the five goals were iffy keeping. Who knows if we could have done any better with anybody else? But that doesn't mask the fact that the keeping was poor.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope

richie17

he was poor but if you play the game ten more times he wouldn't be poor ten more times.  It was just one of those days.  To draw conclusions on it is incorrect, surely, when we have several dozen games suggesting he's very, very good?

epsomraver

,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?


GoldCoastWhite

Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:57:00 PM
,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?
I thought that was a classic bit of Lighthouse irony there Raver !

michaelread

Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:57:00 PM
,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?

I'm assuming he means that the less we play Stockdale the easier it is to hold a "grass is greener" mentality.


Look, simply, I disagree that Stockdale is the better option for keeper at this moment. I think Schwarzer has a few good years left, but Id rather see him have next year at Fulham and then move on to a backup/coaching role.

Oh, and the point about finding Bobbys head every time, Bobby got to those balls. You dont ping a ball from keeper to a standing player. Thats stupid. So stupid. You put it in a certain area and the players come to the ball, not the other way round. What you think he kicks it and the few seconds the ball is in the air everyone stands still hoping it will hit them on the feet? Really..

michaelread

Quote from: RidgeRider on May 10, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
Schwartzer is being challenged more directly and under more nervy circumstances, ala yesterday, because the defense is not as compact as it was. I agree with Rich, AFC and others.

I hate to sound like a broken record but this lovely attacking football and the high defensive line was the reason for our loss yesterday, that and Liverpool were up for the match. Against a less athletic and skillful opponent (70% of the league) it is very effective but we won't take points from top 4 sides like we did under Hodgson unless Hughes adjusts and in the wake of not adjusting he leaves us open to Schwartzer looking very ordinary. The first three goals were under very nervy circumstances, the third one was on Mark though but at that point the whole team was nervous and panicking.

Schwartzer should not be taken out because of his game performance but if MH plans to use Stockdale next year this would be a good time to test him further.

This pretty much sums it up for me. The only reason Mark should be dropped is if Sparky wants to make him number 2 next year. He hasn't played poorly, we are tenth and have a positive for and against.


Logicalman

From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.

Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office  (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.

When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.

For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only -  so I guess I pinned my colours up.

GoldCoastWhite

Quote from: Logicalman on May 10, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.

Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office  (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.

When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.

For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only -  so I guess I pinned my colours up.
Once again you live up to your posting moniker LM. Schwarzer (I am a big fan) had a shocker last night but as several others have suggested, so did several others in front of him. Hangeland had his worst game in ages and looked almost disinterested on a couple of occasions as he ambled back from a Fulham corner. Hughesie was erratic by his standards and Bairdinho was lucky to stay on after letting his frustration get the better of him. I'd still be tempted to give Stocky a run out but only to keep him keen as opposed to dropping The Schwarz for one very average performance.

Peabody

I am one of those who question Marks kicking ability but last night, if you watched carefully, Pepe Reina's goal kicks were not that accurate either. Now are we suggesting that Reina is not that good a keeper either. My point is that it would be remarkable for a keeper to find one of their own players everytime with a long goal kick.


epsomraver

Within 20 feet would help, reina's best kick was after our first goal :011:, to sum up give Stockdalr a game, Hughes has the perfect chance now to rest schwarz , we don't want to lose Stockdale and let's face it, in his shoes would you not expect to be picked for the next game, pantsil had a poor game, dropped, Gera the same, why not schwartz?

ImperialWhite

Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 04:25:36 PM
Within 20 feet would help, reina's best kick was after our first goal :011:, to sum up give Stockdalr a game, Hughes has the perfect chance now to rest schwarz , we don't want to lose Stockdale and let's face it, in his shoes would you not expect to be picked for the next game, pantsil had a poor game, dropped, Gera the same, why not schwartz?

If we dropped all the poor players from yesterday we wouldn't have a back 5!  :011:

Blingo

#51
What do you mean, in saying bring back Tony Macedo, Mr Gilroy???  :005: :005: :005: :005: :005:

Simple fact is we had a really bad night at the opera last night, and we all have them. What we need to do now is forget it and look forward to tanking Birmingham, because you can be sure that every player out there will be giving 110% to put this defeat behind them.


Jack Fulham

Think people are being a little unfair for Schwarzer, wouldn't mind seeing Stockdale start last two games though.

HatterDon

Quote from: RidgeRider on May 10, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
Schwartzer is being challenged more directly and under more nervy circumstances, ala yesterday, because the defense is not as compact as it was. I agree with Rich, AFC and others.

I hate to sound like a broken record but this lovely attacking football and the high defensive line was the reason for our loss yesterday, that and Liverpool were up for the match. Against a less athletic and skillful opponent (70% of the league) it is very effective but we won't take points from top 4 sides like we did under Hodgson unless Hughes adjusts and in the wake of not adjusting he leaves us open to Schwartzer looking very ordinary. The first three goals were under very nervy circumstances, the third one was on Mark though but at that point the whole team was nervous and panicking.

Schwartzer should not be taken out because of his game performance but if MH plans to use Stockdale next year this would be a good time to test him further.

Yes, he was under pressure; yest it was an off day for everyone.

However, even in matches we are dominating, even after holding the ball unchallenged for 5 seconds, Schwarzer still manages to kick the ball to an opponent consistently. He wasn't doing this last season. Either he's purposely trying to blunt our attacks and damage our rhythm, or HIS DISTRIBUTION SKILLS HAVE ERODED.

Nationality Smashionality. I love Mark, but he's not been the keeper this season that he was the previous two, and who his back four is has little to do with his inability to deliver an unpressured kick to a player in White.
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epsomraver

Quote from: Logicalman on May 10, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.

Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office  (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.

When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.

For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only -  so I guess I pinned my colours up.
I have watched Stockdale play for the reserves something you cannot do and he has developed into a very good keeper, Schwarz wanted away and quite honestly has not been the same since.Remember against the same team Stockdale was only beaten by Pantsil so it is not just lowly opposition he excells against, give schwarz a rest he needs it.


Logicalman

Quote from: epsomraver on May 11, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
I have watched Stockdale play for the reserves something you cannot do and he has developed into a very good keeper, Schwarz wanted away and quite honestly has not been the same since.Remember against the same team Stockdale was only beaten by Pantsil so it is not just lowly opposition he excells against, give schwarz a rest he needs it.

"Remember against the same team" - Really?  er, Liverpool had 6 (six) changes in their starting line-up between the two games. Dagliesh had been in charge for 5 games and the poo were coming out of a disastrous first half of the season having 1 win in the 4 previous, compared to this week, when they were coming off 3 wins in 4 (and the 1 they didn't win was an away draw to Arsenal). Torres lead the attack the first time, Suarez this time (neither of these two played together for the poo).

If that's the 'same team' then you and I differ on what the word 'same' means.  

epsomraver

The inference was that Stockdale was only good against " lowly opposition," the games he played including away to poo showed that was not the case, the line up was irrelevent

Logicalman

Quote from: epsomraver on May 11, 2011, 12:14:39 PM
The inference was that Stockdale was only good against " lowly opposition," the games he played including away to poo showed that was not the case, the line up was irrelevent

"the line up was irrelevent"? You mentioned Liverpool by name, the game itself and how well Stockers did between the sticks against "the same team". Now the line up is irrelevant?

There was no inference that Stockers was only good against " lowly opposition " in fact I never used that term or even inferred it in the quoted reply you gave.

If you're going to give a comparison between two games as an example, at least make sure the two games are actually comparable - and patronising somebody because you can get to the reserve games is not even in the park.

Stockers is a good keeper, nobody will deny that, but the attack on Mark that this thread started due to his poor showing in this weeks game and demanding he be replaced by Stockers -  because apparently he is better  - falls somewhere short of validity imo. Stockers is not fully tested against top class opposition, whereas Mark has been. Perhaps a run in the team for Stockers will to both good, but to demand he be replaced outright seems a little too knee-jerk to a game that nobody in a white shirt would wish to admit playing in.


epsomraver

watch the europa video , you will see even in those games Schwarz was to blame for some goals, but there you go I think Stockdale should have a start and Hughes has the reason to change things,they say  play for the shirt, Stockdale plays really well yet soon as schwarz comes off the plane from the Asia cup  he is straight back in, that was where it went wrong and schwarz has not been the same since.

finnster01

For me the argument of starting Stockdale over Schwarz the last two games is more of "give Stockdale a chance so he can see there is a future for him at Fulham". He didn't do much wrong when the Big Aussie was out, and even though I still think the Aussie is the better keeper right now, but I hate to lose Stockdale for the future. He is already getting a bit grumpy.

I say we give him the last two run outs in the Prem, start talking contract extension, but perhaps start Schwarz next season and make a complete switch come Christmas time. If we make Europe, there should be plenty of starts around for both of them anyways
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