Author Topic: Gold cup  (Read 15695 times)

Offline HatterDon

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2011, 02:40:44 AM »
I'll go along with everything but the Freddy bashing. He turned in two very good shifts -- which is more than Donovan did -- and nailed himself an assist in each match, as well as the through pass that led to another goal. He showed discipline and maturity out there. He is not the reason we lost. The fact is that every time Bradley went to the bench he came with a quality sub -- every time but one. The swap of Bornstein for Cherundolo is like swapping Mr. Ed for Seabiscuit.

What is happening here is not a lack of tactics or poor game management -- the exact reverse was through in every match leading up to the final. The truth is that our overall talent level is dropping, and it has been for a while.

Dempsey was the MLS player most ready for the Prem when he left. Since he left, the person who best fit that description was De Resario -- a Canadian. We haven't developed young promising professionals at the rate we were. And it's not just outfield players. We have most recently had seasons where four of the Prem's 20 sides had an American as a regular or starter. Not now. Who's the young American keeper who will push Howard the way that Friedel pushed Keller and Howard pushed Friedel?

And where are the young Americans dotting the development squads at Liverpool, Arsenal, and Man United -- as they were for several years?

Our best athletes don't turn to soccer. We are filled with athletically gifted young people who will never grow over 6' or weign over 175 and, as such, are too small for basketball, football, and most of the baseball scouts won't look at small guys. Problem is that most of them are poor or immigrants, and these kids don't get the benefits that upper-middle class suburban kids get.

We have the talent, but our system works against the development of it. We have to fix that, or we're going to drop out of the World Cup for another 30 years like we did between 1950 and 1990.


Offline CincyFulham1

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2011, 03:02:40 AM »

Bradley snr has done a job, overall not a bad one, and now its time to move on. The tactics are stale, unimaginative and predictable after the first 15 minutes by any team worth it's salt.



I think this just about sums it up for me. Why he didn't just park the bus after going up 2-0 is beyond me.

I agree with you RR.  We lose our RB who has been one of our most consistant players this tournament and he's replaced by a player whom I've always viewed as a liability when he's on the pitch.   It was obvious our defense was going to struggle, yet Bob didn't seem to appreaciate the position we where in.  We should the won that  match and all it would have taken was simple tactical change from the hopefully soon to be replaced manager.  It's all on Bob's shoulders.  
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 03:04:43 AM by CincyFulham1 »

Offline CincyFulham1

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2011, 03:07:38 AM »
I'll go along with everything but the Freddy bashing. He turned in two very good shifts -- which is more than Donovan did -- and nailed himself an assist in each match, as well as the through pass that led to another goal. He showed discipline and maturity out there. He is not the reason we lost. The fact is that every time Bradley went to the bench he came with a quality sub -- every time but one. The swap of Bornstein for Cherundolo is like swapping Mr. Ed for Seabiscuit.

What is happening here is not a lack of tactics or poor game management -- the exact reverse was through in every match leading up to the final. The truth is that our overall talent level is dropping, and it has been for a while.

Dempsey was the MLS player most ready for the Prem when he left. Since he left, the person who best fit that description was De Resario -- a Canadian. We haven't developed young promising professionals at the rate we were. And it's not just outfield players. We have most recently had seasons where four of the Prem's 20 sides had an American as a regular or starter. Not now. Who's the young American keeper who will push Howard the way that Friedel pushed Keller and Howard pushed Friedel?

And where are the young Americans dotting the development squads at Liverpool, Arsenal, and Man United -- as they were for several years?

Our best athletes don't turn to soccer. We are filled with athletically gifted young people who will never grow over 6' or weign over 175 and, as such, are too small for basketball, football, and most of the baseball scouts won't look at small guys. Problem is that most of them are poor or immigrants, and these kids don't get the benefits that upper-middle class suburban kids get.

We have the talent, but our system works against the development of it. We have to fix that, or we're going to drop out of the World Cup for another 30 years like we did between 1950 and 1990.



I agree with every word HD, including the Freddy bashing.  He did amazingly well in what little playing time he got this tournament.  Maybe the penny has finally dropped for the young man, at least I hope so.


Offline ImperialWhite

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2011, 12:05:21 PM »
The Zonal Marking write-up.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/06/26/mexico-4-2-united-states-gold-cup-final/

ZM argues that Adu was the best American on the pitch, for what it's worth.

Offline HatterDon

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2011, 03:46:27 PM »
This just in: Captain Math [one of my secret identities] informs me that the difference between 1950 and 1990 is 40 years not 30.  :doh:


Okay, one of my formerly secret identities.

RidgeRider

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2011, 04:57:35 PM »
The Zonal Marking write-up.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/06/26/mexico-4-2-united-states-gold-cup-final/

ZM argues that Adu was the best American on the pitch, for what it's worth.

I would tend to agree given what I observed. He gave them some trouble but also was dispossessed a little too easily at times.


Offline timmyg

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2011, 05:36:12 PM »
This just in: Captain Math [one of my secret identities] informs me that the difference between 1950 and 1990 is 40 years not 30.  :doh:


Okay, one of my formerly secret identities.

Either way Don, there is no possible way, NONE, that the USA doesn't qualify for another World Cup unless FIFA disbands, or CONCACAF goes back to only allowing 1 team to enter, or the World Cup goes back to being 16 teams.

3.5 teams from CONCACAF currently qualify, and the number will only rise as the World Cup will presumably increase in size as well (more teams=more $$$).

Offline HatterDon

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2011, 06:22:54 PM »
that's true, timmy, but if we don't start developing some good players -- or hanging on to the good ones who either don't want to play for us [Guiseppe Rossi] or we piss off enough so they play elsewhere [Nevin Subotic], we're going to be 3 and out for the forseeable future. US SOCCER has to develop a program that ignores the rich white suburbs and go where every other sport in the United States and every soccer program gets a huge chunk of their talent: slums, barrios, ghettos, the boonies.

Offline ImperialWhite

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #128 on: June 28, 2011, 12:10:17 AM »
that's true, timmy, but if we don't start developing some good players -- or hanging on to the good ones who either don't want to play for us [Guiseppe Rossi] or we piss off enough so they play elsewhere [Nevin Subotic], we're going to be 3 and out for the forseeable future. US SOCCER has to develop a program that ignores the rich white suburbs and go where every other sport in the United States and every soccer program gets a huge chunk of their talent: slums, barrios, ghettos, the boonies.


Interesting point that.

Do you reckon the US is the only country in the World that gets most of it's sports stars (for the most popular sports) from affluent populations? If anything, being middleclass in Britain holds you back in the sporting World (being obliged to obtain a university education and thus miss out on youth training at clubs etc.).


Offline clintclintdeuce

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #129 on: June 28, 2011, 05:50:02 AM »
HD, do you remember the U-20 world cup in Canada a while back? We had so many promising youngsters and from that squad only Fred Adu, Bradley and Altidore have made an impact 4 years later. That team was very unfortunate to lose to Austria and make its way to the finals... Why has this group failed as a whole?

Logicalman

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #130 on: June 28, 2011, 10:39:53 AM »
This just in: Captain Math [one of my secret identities] informs me that the difference between 1950 and 1990 is 40 years not 30.  :doh:
Okay, one of my formerly secret identities.

I did actually note that Don (one of the instances I DO actually notice something) but you were on such a roll, and making so much sense, it seemed a little dour to mention it.

Logicalman

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #131 on: June 28, 2011, 11:00:30 AM »
that's true, timmy, but if we don't start developing some good players -- or hanging on to the good ones who either don't want to play for us [Guiseppe Rossi] or we piss off enough so they play elsewhere [Nevin Subotic], we're going to be 3 and out for the forseeable future. US SOCCER has to develop a program that ignores the rich white suburbs and go where every other sport in the United States and every soccer program gets a huge chunk of their talent: slums, barrios, ghettos, the boonies.

HD,
I agree with your assessment of the grass-roots methodology, its one that has been used in other countries to great effect.

One of the problems I see with the whole set-up is this 'franchise' system, that keeps the same teams, and thus same players, artificially in the top league. The promotion/relegation system allows those unknowns to be dragged into the limelight by their better team peers when the team itself gets promoted and thus exposure, and that's where the gems are found. One of the biggest problems I have had with the MLS itself is its based on the 'American Way' (for want of a better term), where there are play-offs (that can totally change the result of the season-long slog teams go through), where players are 'traded' amongst teams and annual drafts take place and the players are contracted to the league rather than the teams. Unfortunately it smacks more of trying to be fair, and 'nobody is a loser' syndrome, than allowing those naturally-gifted players to play amongst their natural peers (e.g. English Prem, La Liga, bundesliga, etc).

All-in-all this has avoided the European Plague of high costs and wages, but it's adverse effects are what you describe, and it has become somewhat static. In addition to this the MLS season runs (somewhat) contrary to other major footballing Countries.


RidgeRider

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #132 on: June 28, 2011, 02:18:13 PM »
Just in case you are interested, I watched the U17 World Cup match between US and New Zealand the other day on ESPN3 and there are a couple of players that looked very promising. Namely Karoma (F), Guido (M), Pelosi (M), and Dunn (M). Some of the others didn't look too bad either. Namely Mario and Esteban Rodriquez.

There were several others that had some skill as well. Dunn for example is playing in Germany in the academy system and nearly every other player was at an MLS academy.

Offline HatterDon

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #133 on: June 28, 2011, 02:57:13 PM »
that's true, timmy, but if we don't start developing some good players -- or hanging on to the good ones who either don't want to play for us [Guiseppe Rossi] or we piss off enough so they play elsewhere [Nevin Subotic], we're going to be 3 and out for the forseeable future. US SOCCER has to develop a program that ignores the rich white suburbs and go where every other sport in the United States and every soccer program gets a huge chunk of their talent: slums, barrios, ghettos, the boonies.


Interesting point that.

Do you reckon the US is the only country in the World that gets most of it's sports stars (for the most popular sports) from affluent populations? If anything, being middleclass in Britain holds you back in the sporting World (being obliged to obtain a university education and thus miss out on youth training at clubs etc.).

Sorry if I misled, IW. The only sports that are predominately populated by those who grew up in relative affluence in the USA are golf, tennis, and soccer. All sports everywhere else have always drawn heavily on the poor and the disaffected. In most societies the only way any of them can grow out of the situations of their birth is sports.

Offline HatterDon

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #134 on: June 28, 2011, 02:58:10 PM »
This just in: Captain Math [one of my secret identities] informs me that the difference between 1950 and 1990 is 40 years not 30.  :doh:
Okay, one of my formerly secret identities.

I did actually note that Don (one of the instances I DO actually notice something) but you were on such a roll, and making so much sense, it seemed a little dour to mention it.

 :011: :54:


duffbeer

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2011, 04:47:59 PM »
What is happening here is not a lack of tactics or poor game management -- the exact reverse was through in every match leading up to the final. The truth is that our overall talent level is dropping, and it has been for a while.

Dempsey was the MLS player most ready for the Prem when he left. Since he left, the person who best fit that description was De Resario -- a Canadian. We haven't developed young promising professionals at the rate we were. And it's not just outfield players. We have most recently had seasons where four of the Prem's 20 sides had an American as a regular or starter. Not now. Who's the young American keeper who will push Howard the way that Friedel pushed Keller and Howard pushed Friedel?

And where are the young Americans dotting the development squads at Liverpool, Arsenal, and Man United -- as they were for several years?

Our best athletes don't turn to soccer. We are filled with athletically gifted young people who will never grow over 6' or weign over 175 and, as such, are too small for basketball, football, and most of the baseball scouts won't look at small guys. Problem is that most of them are poor or immigrants, and these kids don't get the benefits that upper-middle class suburban kids get.

We have the talent, but our system works against the development of it. We have to fix that, or we're going to drop out of the World Cup for another 30 years like we did between 1950 and 1990.

First off, the last players to leave MLS ready for the premier were Holden and Donovan and that was pretty darn recent.  I also would classify them as "more than ready".

As for goalkeeping, I agree but not for the reason you say.  The problem is that young athletes rarely play multiple sports through high school the way Howard, Keller, and Freidel did.  All three of them had the benefit of playing sports that require jumping, catching, and hand-eye coordination in addition to soccer.  This is especially true for soccer players as the season has expanded to winter and spring, and numerous academies will not keep a spot for you if you dont play every season. 

The claim that the " . . .Problem is that most of them are poor or immigrants, and these kids don't get the benefits that upper-middle class suburban kids get" is something that I read or hear a lot but I have never seen any evidence or examples provided.  Yet, I can think of numerous examples to the contrary.  US soccer players that were poor - Dempsey lived in a trailer, Donovan was raised by a single mother who couldnt afford the fees of the local select team so they were taken care of, Eddie Johnson was pulled from the projects.  Players that were poor immigrants - Josy Altidore, Freddy Adu, Oguchi Onyewu, Juan Agudelo, Alejandro Bedoya, the russian kid signed by Zenit, and numerous others on the U17 and U20 teams.  Players that were immigrants - stuart Holden, Benny Feilhaber, Sacha Kljestan, and numerous examples in MLS.  I dont know about DeMarcus Beasley and Charlie Davies but I'd wager they werent upper middle class.

I struggle to think of a US player that was not either an immigrant, poor, or both.  As for upper middle class, the only non immigrant US player that might qualify is Brian McBride and we certainly dont want anymore players like him do we.  Oh and Michael Bradley would probably qualify as upper middle class, but I think his success has less to do with his family's income and more to do with with the fact that his dad is a coach, something that also happens to be true for many many immigrants or children of immigrants that play soccer in the United States.

My son now plays for a club that is a US Soccer Development Academy.  Most of the families that I know in this club are working class or immigrants or both.  The US Development Academy doesnt start until the U15/U16 age group, but any kid who makes that team does not need to worry if his family has enough money to pay the fees.  If they apply to US Soccer for a scholarship and provide a W2 and evidence of legal recidency to show they qualify, US soccer will pay their fees.  This past year, this club produced two generation addidas players and first round draft picks, one is an immigrant from a poor family, and one is the child of an immigrant from a working class family.  The poor family had an older child that was better than his sibling but never had a shot at a pro career.  The reason was failing grades in school, not family income. 

The biggest problem is that soccer still doesnt pervade our culture the way it does in the great footballing nations.  As an example, the kids at my son's club (some who will be future US academy players)  play basketball with their soccer balls while waiting around for practice to start.  In contrast, I know some American teenagers who grew up in Holland and when you see them on the basketball court they are playing using their feet.  This cultural difference is also the reason other nations are catching up or have caught up to our womens soccer program.

Offline Steve_orino

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Re: Gold cup
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2011, 10:33:02 PM »
Mrs. Moduff, six months to a year, i would have probably disagreed with you but that was then.

I think you're right, the game just hasn't got a grip upon the public/youth; I would suggest that last summer & this summer are a good start to changing that though.

I think a key to getting the public to embrace it, is to have the League (MLS) on TV on a consistent basis.  The public has to know when & where the games are televised (I know FSC has started promoting a game of the week but I don't have FSC and there may be many out there like myself).  The only games ESPN carries are at 9pm & that's too late for my children.