Jol v. the team

[Rambling_Syd_Rumpo]

The trouble is we & the team know they can play a certain formation. When happy, we can give any team a run for their money! (Well at home anyway!)
There's that old saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

time to get new dogs then!
in 2 seasons time two thirds of the team we have now will be gone anyway so I'd start getting shut now to be honest,the only thing that matters is that we stay in the Prem,not the bruised ego of a few ageing footballers :clap_hands: :clap_hands:

[luckykat]

Change to 442 until the window opens. It is important to get as many points as possible and if the current team will win more games with that formation so be it. Then ship out the rebels in January and bring in new blood.

[FFCSteve]

The trouble is we & the team know they can play a certain formation. When happy, we can give any team a run for their money! (Well at home anyway!)
There's that old saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

time to get new dogs then!
in 2 seasons time two thirds of the team we have now will be gone anyway so I'd start getting shut now to be honest,the only thing that matters is that we stay in the Prem,not the bruised ego of a few ageing footballers :clap_hands: :clap_hands:

I agree, my point was not to change the way the CURRENT team know how to play!

[Jack Fulham]

its clear he wants that 4-2-3-1 formation

And rightly so! It's the perfect formation for our younger players. Only problem it that it would automatically throw either BZ or AJ out of the formation. And they're two of the "team leaders". And, as we all know, it's always a problem to throw out older players who have a big reputation. Chelsea have the same problem with Lampard, Liverpool with Carragher and Gerrard and ManUtd with Ferdinand and Berbatov. That's a tricky potential banana skin for every manager, especially when he's new in the job. But eventually we will have to replace BZ, AJ, Duff, Murphy and Hughes.

Where is the evidence to suggest 4-2-3-1 is best for our young players. It's pretty clear that we play our best when we play 4-4-2, Wigan dominated most the play yesterday because we played some kind of 4-5-1 and Bobby was isolated most the match. The fact is we still have these players and we've got to play to our strengths to stay in this division, no point in changing until these players have moved on or had there place in the team taken.

[FFC Norway]

I don't think BZ wants away (Why would he?) but I think there's a lot of truth in the Murphy/Jol-story. But I think Jol is pretty aware of the fact that he HAS TO replace Murphy. I think Danny knows it as well, but obviously it's hard to take. It seems that Jol tried to sign Wout Brama, so Smurf knows that his days are numbered. And an angry skipper is definitely not good for the team climate.

Plus I think the team, which contains some high-profile long-term Premiership players like Murphy, AJ and Bobby, is wrong. 4-4-2 isn't the best system for the team. It might well be the best system for these players, but they should realize that they are 30+ and that Jol is the manager.

So they should shut up and let Jol do what Jol wants to do, whatever that is.

Couldn't agree more.

[RidgeRider]

The trouble is we & the team know they can play a certain formation. When happy, we can give any team a run for their money! (Well at home anyway!)
There's that old saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks!

time to get new dogs then!
in 2 seasons time two thirds of the team we have now will be gone anyway so I'd start getting shut now to be honest,the only thing that matters is that we stay in the Prem,not the bruised ego of a few ageing footballers :clap_hands: :clap_hands:

Fully agree. It is time to get behind the manager and to stop lamenting him for everything that happens. We are in the midst of change, and no matter how painful it may be, it had to happen. Jol has been playing the same basic team we have had, for the most part, over the past three seasons and some of OUR, supposed, professional players are not adjusting well, their job is to learn the new system, embrace it and adapt....but remember (and this has been said elsewhere on this board) this same group struggled with Hodgson, then with Hughes and now with Jol. Why should we expect anything different with Jol? As supporters, we are a like a broken record each time a new manager is brought it.

[MJG]

The 4-2-3-1  should work best with the younger squad we have due to the fact we have more attacking midfield players than natural strikers.
Apart from AJ and BZ the only other real striker we have is Sa.
Kasami , Ruiz , Dempsey, Dembele, Duff and Frei.Perm any three from that list to play behind a main striker, who it could be argued may be Dempsey.

I still think we are a couple of players short of what Jol wants and they will be to replace AJ  and Duff i think. Pretty sure he would want to keep bobby but if he is causing trouble the bye bye.

[FatFreddysCat]

If the players dont want to give it their best, then they can go, :59: .Ship out the poison in jan.

[RidgeRider]

its clear he wants that 4-2-3-1 formation

And rightly so! It's the perfect formation for our younger players. Only problem it that it would automatically throw either BZ or AJ out of the formation. And they're two of the "team leaders". And, as we all know, it's always a problem to throw out older players who have a big reputation. Chelsea have the same problem with Lampard, Liverpool with Carragher and Gerrard and ManUtd with Ferdinand and Berbatov. That's a tricky potential banana skin for every manager, especially when he's new in the job. But eventually we will have to replace BZ, AJ, Duff, Murphy and Hughes.

Where is the evidence to suggest 4-2-3-1 is best for our young players. It's pretty clear that we play our best when we play 4-4-2, Wigan dominated most the play yesterday because we played some kind of 4-5-1 and Bobby was isolated most the match. The fact is we still have these players and we've got to play to our strengths to stay in this division, no point in changing until these players have moved on or had there place in the team taken.

We play well in 442 because the team is comfortable in that formation, not necessarily because it is the best formation moving forward. They have been drilled in it for the past 3.5 seasons so they know how to play it. This team must change due to its age and because the manager feels a 4231 is a better formation to build off of so why no let him make those changes? The team needs to learn the new system by playing in it, and struggling, until they "get it". 442 would only be good in the short term and  if we were only concerned about the 'here and the now' and weren't also working on the future. Players will have to leave as a result.

To your point, if we want results RIGHT now, 442 is the better choice but I don't think it is if it is not part of his re-building strategy.

We would likely be jeopardizing the future if we didn't start making changes now so I think we suffer a bit now to, hopefully, better position the squad and the whole system.

[Jack Fulham]

its clear he wants that 4-2-3-1 formation

And rightly so! It's the perfect formation for our younger players. Only problem it that it would automatically throw either BZ or AJ out of the formation. And they're two of the "team leaders". And, as we all know, it's always a problem to throw out older players who have a big reputation. Chelsea have the same problem with Lampard, Liverpool with Carragher and Gerrard and ManUtd with Ferdinand and Berbatov. That's a tricky potential banana skin for every manager, especially when he's new in the job. But eventually we will have to replace BZ, AJ, Duff, Murphy and Hughes.

Where is the evidence to suggest 4-2-3-1 is best for our young players. It's pretty clear that we play our best when we play 4-4-2, Wigan dominated most the play yesterday because we played some kind of 4-5-1 and Bobby was isolated most the match. The fact is we still have these players and we've got to play to our strengths to stay in this division, no point in changing until these players have moved on or had there place in the team taken.

We play well in 442 because the team is comfortable in that formation, not necessarily because it is the best formation moving forward. They have been drilled in it for the past 3.5 seasons so they know how to play it. This team must change due to its age and because the manager feels a 4231 is a better formation to build off of so why no let him make those changes? The team needs to learn the new system by playing in it, and struggling, until they "get it". 442 would only be good in the short term and  if we were only concerned about the 'here and the now' and weren't also working on the future. Players will have to leave as a result.

To your point, if we want results RIGHT now, 442 is the better choice but I don't think it is if it is not part of his re-building strategy.

We would likely be jeopardizing the future if we didn't start making changes now so I think we suffer a bit now to, hopefully, better position the squad and the whole system.

We're jeopardizing the future by making changes now. I don't see the point in playing 1 upfront when none our strikers look capable of playing as a lone man effectively. I'm all for changing the system if it isn't working but now it seems we've changed from a more effective one to a less effective. We should delay 4-2-3-1 until next season so Jol can change the squad to suit it.

[FFCSteve]

its clear he wants that 4-2-3-1 formation

And rightly so! It's the perfect formation for our younger players. Only problem it that it would automatically throw either BZ or AJ out of the formation. And they're two of the "team leaders". And, as we all know, it's always a problem to throw out older players who have a big reputation. Chelsea have the same problem with Lampard, Liverpool with Carragher and Gerrard and ManUtd with Ferdinand and Berbatov. That's a tricky potential banana skin for every manager, especially when he's new in the job. But eventually we will have to replace BZ, AJ, Duff, Murphy and Hughes.

Where is the evidence to suggest 4-2-3-1 is best for our young players. It's pretty clear that we play our best when we play 4-4-2, Wigan dominated most the play yesterday because we played some kind of 4-5-1 and Bobby was isolated most the match. The fact is we still have these players and we've got to play to our strengths to stay in this division, no point in changing until these players have moved on or had there place in the team taken.

We play well in 442 because the team is comfortable in that formation, not necessarily because it is the best formation moving forward. They have been drilled in it for the past 3.5 seasons so they know how to play it. This team must change due to its age and because the manager feels a 4231 is a better formation to build off of so why no let him make those changes? The team needs to learn the new system by playing in it, and struggling, until they "get it". 442 would only be good in the short term and  if we were only concerned about the 'here and the now' and weren't also working on the future. Players will have to leave as a result.

To your point, if we want results RIGHT now, 442 is the better choice but I don't think it is if it is not part of his re-building strategy.

We would likely be jeopardizing the future if we didn't start making changes now so I think we suffer a bit now to, hopefully, better position the squad and the whole system.

We're jeopardizing the future by making changes now. I don't see the point in playing 1 upfront when none our strikers look capable of playing as a lone man effectively. I'm all for changing the system if it isn't working but now it seems we've changed from a more effective one to a less effective. We should delay 4-2-3-1 until next season so Jol can change the squad to suit it.

That's exactly what I was alluding to jack, but you've put it more eloquently than I!

[MJG]

Our best season pretty much came from Bobby playing on his own with Gera playing behind so im sure he can play that role with three players supporting him.

Trouble is he wants his mate AJ next to him and that has been mainly miss rather than hit over the years.

[RidgeRider]

Our best season pretty much came from Bobby playing on his own with Gera playing behind so im sure he can play that role with three players supporting him.

Trouble is he wants his mate AJ next to him and that has been mainly miss rather than hit over the years.

True, with Hodgson, we were basically playing a 41311 moving forward, so Bobby has been very successful playing upfront by himself, in fact he was amazing laying the ball off, holding things up for the other 4 to get into positions

[sunburywhite]

I am not too sure

Sent from either side of my fence

[Blingo]

Our best season pretty much came from Bobby playing on his own with Gera playing behind so im sure he can play that role with three players supporting him.

Trouble is he wants his mate AJ next to him and that has been mainly miss rather than hit over the years.

True, with Hodgson, we were basically playing a 41311 moving forward, so Bobby has been very successful playing upfront by himself, in fact he was amazing laying the ball off, holding things up for the other 4 to get into positions

Which is exactly what is NOT happening now RR. Until we get back to that way of playing, BZ wont be seen to the best of his game. There is no room for both AJ and BZ in the team, they are two completely different strikers that do not IMHO compliment each other.

[Logicalman]

Yesterday, yet again and especially for the first 30 minutes, I saw players in white shirts that were making it obvious they didn't want to play, for whatever reason. I can understand that some players don't get on with the manager, that's to be expected, but something else should be expected also, and that is some level of professionalism.

To see senior players doing the equivalent of a 'go slow' or 'work to rule' is not on. The club and the fans pay their wages, and whether they like, dislike or are ambivalent towards Jol, I don't give a monkeys. Just because I fall out with my manager at work, doesn't mean I withdraw my labour, or fail to do my job properly, and I don't earn in one year what most of these players are on weekly! So what else is the difference? I have pride in my work and company, something those players have not.

So, to the likes of Bobby, Smurph and others that don't want to play under Jol, please don't let the door hit you on the way out, you don't want to play for my club, then I don't want to see you representing my belief and love for my club, however good you might, or think you might, be.

Watching yesterdays match, and last week, it came to mind I was so much happier when we were a  struggling club, in the lower divisions, that had players who WANTED to wear the badge and played with passion for the fans, not for the pay packet.
Like many of you on here, I have seen us go from the top division down to depths and I have never had my faith wavered. Yesterday I almost turned the TV off after 30 minutes, and as those that know me, I have never even considered that before in my life.

[White Noise]

One of the intriguing things about management is when to call the top of a players career and to know when to ship them out for the good of the squad.

Wenger used to be very good at it and our managers in recent times have judged it pretty well. Most of us wanted at least one of the players who departed this Summer to be kept on for a while longer but none seem to have prospered away from Craven Cottage. In fact we seem to have improved on them in almost all cases but until our present team become at least as good as the sum of their individual parts we are unlikely to feel that we have greatly benefited. I think Craven Cottage Newsround (apologies if it was someone else) broke the squad down into those members who were yet to reach their peak, those at it and those past it. However a squad needs all sorts of players to prosper and they can't all play 40 games a season.

I think a manager needs about 3 transfer windows to be able to call a squad their own. So, come next Summer who do you think Jol will want to have moved on?

[RidgeRider]

One of the intriguing things about management is when to call the top of a players career and to know when to ship them out for the good of the squad.

Wenger used to be very good at it and our managers in recent times have judged it pretty well. Most of us wanted at least one of the players who departed this Summer to be kept on for a while longer but none seem to have prospered away from Craven Cottage. In fact we seem to have improved on them in almost all cases but until our present team become at least as good as the sum of their individual parts we are unlikely to feel that we have greatly benefited. I think Craven Cottage Newsround (apologies if it was someone else) broke the squad down into those members who were yet to reach their peak, those at it and those past it. However a squad needs all sorts of players to prosper and they can't all play 40 games a season.

I think a manager needs about 3 transfer windows to be able to call a squad their own. So, come next Summer who do you think Jol will want to have moved on?

Zamora or AJ, Duff, Murphy, Hughes, and Halliche would be my guess.

[RidgeRider]

Our best season pretty much came from Bobby playing on his own with Gera playing behind so im sure he can play that role with three players supporting him.

Trouble is he wants his mate AJ next to him and that has been mainly miss rather than hit over the years.

True, with Hodgson, we were basically playing a 41311 moving forward, so Bobby has been very successful playing upfront by himself, in fact he was amazing laying the ball off, holding things up for the other 4 to get into positions

Which is exactly what is NOT happening now RR. Until we get back to that way of playing, BZ wont be seen to the best of his game. There is no room for both AJ and BZ in the team, they are two completely different strikers that do not IMHO compliment each other.

Why not have Zamora as our single striker in Prem games and AJ in Europa and Cup matches? One could sub for the other if they are fatigued or have a stinker. Just an idea....may not be a good one but it may give each pitch time in positions where they seem to excel.

[richie17]

Well the other end of the rumour is that Jol might need to (e.g. has been asked to) cash in on some of his saleable assets while they still have value.  So January might be interesting.