Dempsey's 90th Minute Goal Against ManU

[HatterDon]

Let's recap from my point of view:

HatterDon posted his ten points. An opinion. Perfectly fine.

There were various responses questioning and supporting. It's a forum. Posters should expect and encourage this perfectly fine.

There were some responses that were not in the spirit of a forum:

"Well, who could have predicted a comment like this? I am completely bumfuzzled in surprise. What insight!

Now I know who FofF put in charge of determining who is and who isn't a Fulham supporter."

and

"It pays sometimes to just skip on by posters who are disrespectful and just like to wind people up. I've seen the same disrespect in multiple threads by the same poster. If I were the rest of you, I just wouldn't bite."

and

"Oh do give it up !!
You joined this site on 17th August 2012
and the following are a sample of your first posts, they make good reading, it is great to see how consistent you have been. 
You may be an  Apprentice of something but it is not The Maestro".

Hardly fair points to move the discussion forward.

You're kidding, right? Does anybody else think he's kidding with this? I mean, does anybody think he's SERIOUS?

I do like a good laugh. Thanks!  064.gif 064.gif 064.gif

[BarryP]

I am directly asking if you would consider your quote below to fall into the category of unsubstantiated claims and comments?

Dempsey is a modest part of the club's PL history and even then he would come behind players like vdS, Schwarzer, Murphy and McBride and others.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Presumably you are referring to me. I do not post in a disrespectful frame of mind but in threads like this with posts like some of the above I will challenge the content of posts.

HatterDon puts up 10 points that may or may not be true but which don't seem to have any backing evidence when challenged by others and I ask how that affects the situation. Someone else makes a claim for Dempsey's legend status on weak grounds to which I offer counterarguments.

What kind of forum protects posters who put up unsubstantiated comments and claims by damning posts that challenge them as disrespectful?

Would you not file this in the unsubstantiated claims and comments bin?

Dempsey is a modest part of the club's PL history and even then he would come behind players like vdS, Schwarzer, Murphy and McBride and others.

Amoung the many opinions that float about regarding Dempsey within the FOF family the one fact that would be difficult to argue against is the man does tend to stir up passionate sentiment when he is discussed on this board.

Signed: Patiently awaiting an answer aka BarryP

PS - I do like the way you always manage to try and sidestep these little questions.

Sorry if you are waiting for an answer from me but honestly did not understand that it was directed at me or quite what it means.

I have reread it and maybe this is an answer: HatterDon ends his post with the 10 points with "No links. Just information I've picked up here and there and some analysis". I would say that that therefore comes within the realm of `unsubstantiated comments and claims'.

Good Lord man:


o·pin·ion
[uh-pin-yuh n] Show IPA

noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal

`unsubstantiated comments and claims ' or opinions pretty much the same and fine. There is no issue with that.

The point was that responding to the opinion was said to be disrespectful.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I am directly asking if you would consider your quote below to fall into the category of unsubstantiated claims and comments?

Dempsey is a modest part of the club's PL history and even then he would come behind players like vdS, Schwarzer, Murphy and McBride and others.

Of course, or equally an opinion. I am allowed one, am I?

[YankeeJim]

I am directly asking if you would consider your quote below to fall into the category of unsubstantiated claims and comments?

Dempsey is a modest part of the club's PL history and even then he would come behind players like vdS, Schwarzer, Murphy and McBride and others.

Of course, or equally an opinion. I am allowed one, am I?

Of course you are. Don stated an opinion on the first page of this thread and here we are on page five still going over the problems that you and enterthefrei have with his opnion.  :kettle pot:

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Let's recap from my point of view:

HatterDon posted his ten points. An opinion. Perfectly fine.

There were various responses questioning and supporting. It's a forum. Posters should expect and encourage this perfectly fine.

There were some responses that were not in the spirit of a forum:

"Well, who could have predicted a comment like this? I am completely bumfuzzled in surprise. What insight!

Now I know who FofF put in charge of determining who is and who isn't a Fulham supporter."

and

"It pays sometimes to just skip on by posters who are disrespectful and just like to wind people up. I've seen the same disrespect in multiple threads by the same poster. If I were the rest of you, I just wouldn't bite."

and

"Oh do give it up !!
You joined this site on 17th August 2012
and the following are a sample of your first posts, they make good reading, it is great to see how consistent you have been.  
You may be an  Apprentice of something but it is not The Maestro".

Hardly fair points to move the discussion forward.

You're kidding, right? Does anybody else think he's kidding with this? I mean, does anybody think he's SERIOUS?

I do like a good laugh. Thanks!  064.gif 064.gif 064.gif

I am just pointing out that some posters are very sensitive about certain subjects and when their firmly held beliefs are questioned they overreact, loose the ability to put together coherent points to form an argument and resort to abuse.

It doesn't say much for the strength of their argument does it?

[Forever Fulham]

Look, everyone, just take a deep breath and  hold your fire.  Those that don't like Clint will continue to diminish his accomplishments, gloss over his professionalism and good manners five years and running--with a hiccup when he left for reasons which might or might not be attributable to him.  Those who think he was one of the three most influential players to put on a Fulham shirt in the club's history--well, they have their rightful arguments too.  HD, your post was the first one to attempt to put a comprehensive timeline explanation of events that has run counter to the perhaps simplistic "Clint is an ingrate; I hate him, good riddance" argument that passed as conventional wisdom.  You aren't prone to hyperbole.  Your comments are always astute and interesting, and very enjoyable reading.  So when you set forth your list of ten 'facts' (or assertions), you get a measure of street cred (as my son would say).  If some of your information is coming from McBride (or McGod as he's often called by people who hate Clint but love McBride), well, they should consider that before rushing to respond.   In any event  your message was crystal clear that much of what you put forth was based on tidbits of information gathered here and there--nothing so solid you could swear by it.  If people would calm down a little and read more carefully...  All I know is that IF Clint asked for but was refused a four-year deal, then how can people say he was disloyal or wanted nothing more than to bolt for the turnstiles?  Again, that's IF Clint asked for a four year deal.  Bottom line, he has been personally responsible for a number of key wins and ties at Spurs this season.  For those who say he isn't liked by the fans, I say in reply that I have seen a lot of very positive Spurs fan commentary about him, so maybe it's a case of seeing what you want to see.  I want to see positive; those who still have an itch they can't scratch about him maybe want to hear only the negative.  Every player has detractors and supporters from the stands.  The cut of your jib just won't please everybody.  That's life.  In the end, I trust my gut.  When he scored the tying goal yesterday, I lost it.  I jumped out of my recliner like I was 20 again.  I don't understand how any of you who watched him all these years at Fulham wouldn't do the same.  When you become a fan of a player, can you really shut off the spigot when he moves to another team?  I wasn't given those genes.  The other day, I saw a grown man with West Ham jersey with Lampard on the back.  Made complete sense to me.

[YankeeJim]

ForeverFulham,
I have to say I admire your intelligent if futile post. Dempsey, on these boards, provokes the same type of gut response that religion or politics produce. People feel it and there's no real discussion. I find it a cross between being emothional and being a troll.  I do believe that he got/gets way, way more flack then he deserved and also was defended more than he deserved. I've heard it said that there can be no hate unless love first preceded. Dempsey provokes a feeling of betrayal in some. Why Moose doesn't is beyond me. Perhaps Moose is that pretty blonde we had a flirtation with and Dempsey is that lost love.

[Cally]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

[St Eve]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).Excellent post Cally

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

[HatterDon]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

Welcome to the site. This a very incisive first post. I look forward to reading more from you. Don't be shy!

[McBridefan1]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

welcome to the fire kid, sorry in advance...

Ya he took four points off of manchester united including the game winner at old trafford, that's something the average player does regularly... oh wait, not even the "great" players have done that this season... huh? Thanks for posting though, don't get discouraged I just dissagree...

[BarryP]

Dempsey is a modest part of the club's PL history and even then he would come behind players like vdS, Schwarzer, Murphy and McBride and others. Across the whole history he slips even further into the background.

I get that you are fans of his but the continuing effort to tell us that we under-appreciate him and how important he was is grang. We have seen his career. We have seen the contributions of others. We can make up our own minds.

I am glad we can agree that what you posted is an opinion an of course you are entitled to your opinion Apprentice. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Do try to keep that in mind when you repeatedly and insistently post to tell people what they should and should not be posting. Try to keep in mind that we have read the negative posts about Dempsey and seen the contributions of other posters. We can make up our own minds about what we have seen and read and do not require your constant correction on what opinions we would or should not post.

I have no issue with those that dislike the way Dempsey departed of those that did not appreciate his style of play. It is too bad others are not allowed to express an opinion without being told it is grating as you must be allowed to do.

As for me, I think Fulham badly misses Deuce's ugly goals and I hope we can find someone that can replicate his recent proficiency in front of goal.

[timmyg]

I missed the part about Liverpool acknowledging they were tapping him up all summer. Which, through anecdotal evidence, could be seen in any USMNT game when the announcer would say "Dempsey deserves a move to a bigger club" 6718924 times per game.

That said I still view him as an ex. I'm happy for him and his future, especially when he scores against the Crazy Uncle, because I'm a good person. But I'm still jilted and bitter over the whole affair.

[McBridefan1]

Facts of the matter.
Clint Dempsey is one of the key contributors to Fulham's recent spell in England's top flight and various achievements such as Fulham's Europa league run and Great Escape.
Clint Dempsey is the club's best ever Premier League scorer.
Clint Dempsey spoke increasingly about moving on from Fulham towards the end of his career in the white and black.
Liverpool tapped up Dempsey.
Jol did not select Dempsey for any match squad this (pre-)season.
Tottenham bought Dempsey.

Everything else is he-said-she-said conjecture and shouldn't be treated like fact. Whether or not Dempsey is a club legend is ultimately an opinion that fans are entitled to have, and as opinions tend to do they sometimes drag in emotional reasons, which are perfectly fine but shouldn't be treated like fact. Personally, as a human being, I completely sympathize with Dempsey's desire to test himself in a different context. In my OPINION, there is nothing wrong wanting to try new pastures, and in my OPINION all the squabbling about who was in wrong about the way he left is not only completely unverifiable but also kind of useless. As a Fulham fan, I'm unhappy about him leaving as he was an important part of the team. I don't know who to be unhappy at, and finger pointing is useless unless Jol, MAF, and Dempsey all decide to have a press conference and explain to us a consistent story of what really happen, as well as telling us where the aliens from Roswell are and who the second shooter was.
Until then, I will watch his past achievements with Fulham with fondness and hope that he doesn't conjure anything up when he plays against Fulham.

Facts and reason? What fun are they? Yanks and Brits, we're naturally argumentative arses...ever since the English came to our country queued up and let us shoot at them we thought, now these are the type of people we want to play with... The only way we enjoy ourselves is to be miserable, so this conversation is perfect.

[BestOfBrede]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

I don't think Dempsey is just your Mr average - anymore. He was, for quite a while, with the super whites but just improved year on year. He has become an exceptional player and this I feel we should be proud of. He has certainly contributed to some of our greatest moments in history. The problem for me is that he left under a cloud and really didn't need to. He blotted his record for many of us and it is really a shame. I think a lot of anger we feel is real disappointment that he left. And if we are really honest, would prefer him to see out his career with us - after all , it was us that took the chance on him and developed him? I think I've started to calm down about his leaving now and really miss him. But, I'm not sure that I can forgive the way he left even though I understand his reasons! I'm not so sure though that playing for the fake whites is as good as he could have got!

[BestOfBrede]

Facts of the matter.
Clint Dempsey is one of the key contributors to Fulham's recent spell in England's top flight and various achievements such as Fulham's Europa league run and Great Escape.
Clint Dempsey is the club's best ever Premier League scorer.
Clint Dempsey spoke increasingly about moving on from Fulham towards the end of his career in the white and black.
Liverpool tapped up Dempsey.
Jol did not select Dempsey for any match squad this (pre-)season.
Tottenham bought Dempsey.

Everything else is he-said-she-said conjecture and shouldn't be treated like fact. Whether or not Dempsey is a club legend is ultimately an opinion that fans are entitled to have, and as opinions tend to do they sometimes drag in emotional reasons, which are perfectly fine but shouldn't be treated like fact. Personally, as a human being, I completely sympathize with Dempsey's desire to test himself in a different context. In my OPINION, there is nothing wrong wanting to try new pastures, and in my OPINION all the squabbling about who was in wrong about the way he left is not only completely unverifiable but also kind of useless. As a Fulham fan, I'm unhappy about him leaving as he was an important part of the team. I don't know who to be unhappy at, and finger pointing is useless unless Jol, MAF, and Dempsey all decide to have a press conference and explain to us a consistent story of what really happen, as well as telling us where the aliens from Roswell are and who the second shooter was.
Until then, I will watch his past achievements with Fulham with fondness and hope that he doesn't conjure anything up when he plays against Fulham.

Facts and reason? What fun are they? Yanks and Brits, we're naturally argumentative arses...ever since the English came to our country queued up and let us shoot at them we thought, now these are the type of people we want to play with... The only way we enjoy ourselves is to be miserable, so this conversation is perfect.

That's all well and good shooting at us, but that was with bow and arrows! If we hadn't come over you could've been called 'Buffalo on a hill' or 'Sleeping Wolf' or such like! Your leader would have been 'Nervous Elk' (name that film!)
064.gif

[ToodlesMcToot]

This is my first post on this board.

God knows I felt Dempsey had a fantastic season last year. Nobody can doubt that. However, one fantastic season does not make him the player that his fans would have people believe. As far as I saw he had many average seasons before last, year belived his own hype and decided that he was better than us (a team that was built around him).

At Spurs he has shown how average he is, scoring a few goals but hardly setting the world alight. Like many Fulham players before him , he has jumped the fence to pastures that are not as green as they first seemed.

Welcome to the board! I hope that you'll continue contributing.

I agree that his last season with us was a fantastic one. What I don't agree with, regarding his fans (from here is where I suppose your gathering your information), is that they're using that one season to define the entirety of his time at Fulham. I've not seen that from anyone that I can recall. What I have seen are people speaking to his entire tenure here when touting him as the fine servant he was to the club. Not one of us here knows what happened in pre-season, so I leave that out of the equation.

Beyond that, what I saw was a player who is confident enough in his own abilities to believe he can fit in with a bigger club and succeed. Apparently, his new manager agrees. I'm not sure why anyone would expect that he'd set the world alight at Spurs. They are more talented than us with more scoring options. It would make sense that his goal scoring responsibilities would subside somewhat and that it would take him some time to grow his role within a new team, especially a team that can afford the talent they can.

They are in a Champions League position currently and he's playing. I'd say the grass likely still looks pretty green to him.

Again, keep posting. We can agree. We can disagree. At the end of the day, I just hope we win. COYW!

[McBridefan1]

Facts of the matter.
Clint Dempsey is one of the key contributors to Fulham's recent spell in England's top flight and various achievements such as Fulham's Europa league run and Great Escape.
Clint Dempsey is the club's best ever Premier League scorer.
Clint Dempsey spoke increasingly about moving on from Fulham towards the end of his career in the white and black.
Liverpool tapped up Dempsey.
Jol did not select Dempsey for any match squad this (pre-)season.
Tottenham bought Dempsey.

Everything else is he-said-she-said conjecture and shouldn't be treated like fact. Whether or not Dempsey is a club legend is ultimately an opinion that fans are entitled to have, and as opinions tend to do they sometimes drag in emotional reasons, which are perfectly fine but shouldn't be treated like fact. Personally, as a human being, I completely sympathize with Dempsey's desire to test himself in a different context. In my OPINION, there is nothing wrong wanting to try new pastures, and in my OPINION all the squabbling about who was in wrong about the way he left is not only completely unverifiable but also kind of useless. As a Fulham fan, I'm unhappy about him leaving as he was an important part of the team. I don't know who to be unhappy at, and finger pointing is useless unless Jol, MAF, and Dempsey all decide to have a press conference and explain to us a consistent story of what really happen, as well as telling us where the aliens from Roswell are and who the second shooter was.
Until then, I will watch his past achievements with Fulham with fondness and hope that he doesn't conjure anything up when he plays against Fulham.

Facts and reason? What fun are they? Yanks and Brits, we're naturally argumentative arses...ever since the English came to our country queued up and let us shoot at them we thought, now these are the type of people we want to play with... The only way we enjoy ourselves is to be miserable, so this conversation is perfect.

That's all well and good shooting at us, but that was with bow and arrows! If we hadn't come over you could've been called 'Buffalo on a hill' or 'Sleeping Wolf' or such like! Your leader would have been 'Nervous Elk' (name that film!)
064.gif

The villain with Arnold the governator Schwarzenegger...lol. Nervous elk.