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Jol has no excuses

Started by JackyFulham90, July 26, 2013, 09:41:47 PM

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MikeCdawg

Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?

Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.

Big names? who had heard of Amorebieta  until we were linked with them?

I certainly had, I watch a lot of la liga though he didn't play much last season through injury. He looks solid.

Apprentice to the Maestro

Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 12:52:33 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:32:43 AM
Quote from: The Moose on July 27, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.

In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Truth is only propaganda when it is used unjustifiably. If something is indeed true it is undeniable.


But all truth in deniable. Religion, politics, sexual orientation are all true to people who will fight and die for their truth. They will die because other people have a different truth and will fight and die for their truth. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars etc. Yes I know I have gone off topic a shade. But I am true to myself  :Get Coat gif:

What kind of truths do you mean? To me all of those things are about beliefs rather than truths. Truths are scientific and objective.

"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

alfie

Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.

I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?

Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.

How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't


Artful Dodger

And at next weeks book club, we will be discussing George Orwells '1984', although there will probably be less to discuss on the subject of truth and morality!! :dead horse:

Anyway, I agree that this is Jol's squad now, so no more excuses.
Faber est suae quisque fortunae

Apprentice to the Maestro

#64
Quote from: alfie on July 28, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.

I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?

Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.

How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .

I am more than happy to make clear that I am not associating your views with any of these bad people. I did not intend a personal attack on you. I am sorry that you have been upset.

I was extending and exaggerating to make a general point about `respect' which I have noticed is abused by some on this forum to say "how dare you criticise my opinion".

I agree with your points about the views of some about Jol and of Roy (although in Roy's defence I am sure that you will accept he was building a team up from a bad place on little money. It might have changed if he had stayed longer). Yes, some people will never like Jol.

My point though is if posters start making false points to back their argument or abuse logic then we should not `respect' their arguments but should correct them. If it is about opinions then counter-arguments are opinions too.

bizarrebaz

 on the respect for opinion. Yes of course you should respect someone elses opinion. Disagree as much as you like and put your view over but dont ridicule or abuse somebody while doing so. Simple. We can all live happily and support the team that way.


Lighthouse

"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.






So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope

alexbishop

Well this has turned into a bizarre conversation...

I think it is fair to let Jol continue until January, then re-evaluate. No need for rash decisions though, don't want to unsettle the squad.
Fulham Fan Est. 1997

t: @alexmbishop

Lighthouse

Quote from: alexbishop on July 28, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
Well this has turned into a bizarre conversation...

I think it is fair to let Jol continue until January, then re-evaluate. No need for rash decisions though, don't want to unsettle the squad.

Not really. It was developing into another Jol supporters v Jol Doubters. We have these every blimmin week. So to let the thread grow it became a belief versus truth thread. Mkes perfect sense to me. Honest and true.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope


Apprentice to the Maestro

#69
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Lighthouse

Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope

alfie

Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 09:26:49 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 28, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.

I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?

Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.

How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .

I am more than happy to make clear that I am not associating your views with any of these bad people. I did not intend a personal attack on you. I am sorry that you have been upset.

I was extending and exaggerating to make a general point about `respect' which I have noticed is abused by some on this forum to say "how dare you criticise my opinion".

I agree with your points about the views of some about Jol and of Roy (although in Roy's defence I am sure that you will accept he was building a team up from a bad place on little money. It might have changed if he had stayed longer). Yes, some people will never like Jol.

My point though is if posters start making false points to back their argument or abuse logic then we should not `respect' their arguments but should correct them. If it is about opinions then counter-arguments are opinions too.

Fair enough thanks.
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't


Bassey the warrior

Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Yes it does. I believe that and its true.

What are you talking about?

Lighthouse

Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Yes it does. I believe that and its true.

What are you talking about?

If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope

Bassey the warrior

Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Yes it does. I believe that and its true.

What are you talking about?

If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.
Truth as a concept is objective, it's the means of measuring it that are false. Everyone seems to cherry pick stats to fit their own aims. Only hard science can be trusted to identify truths.


Gozorich

Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?

I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.

So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.

Something evil this way comes.

No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.

Yes it does. I believe that and its true.

What are you talking about?

If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.

This really is pretentious and pompous nonsense. Not at all like the normal stuff from Lighthouse.

Yellow Jacket

This is entertaining. Lighthouse has done well.

MJG

getting back to the main question...
-They are a good team – not the best team in the Bundesliga – but normally they play at home and they are good (finished 13th last season and lost a number of pre season games)
- it was probably our first real serious test (well the 3 games in CR were just kick abouts then)
-Berbatov was good, but he can't do everything (was he?, well get some help, whats was Ruiz doing?)
-Sometimes we can't play the short balls in midfield because it puts you under pressure (WHY?)
-since Clint [Dempsey] left we do not have enough goals in us (Shut up about Dempsey and its a fact we scored more lge goals last season than the season before)
-Today we looked a bit rusty from the start (we just had 3 games and some players played a LOT more than others. Mix the team round then)


epsomraver

 :plus one: Lot of sense there. Away travel this season anyone?