Seatbelt Advice Please

[nose]

I would fight it.
I do not believe they can be certain that you are or are not wearing a seat belt from the side of the road. There is no way they could tell if you were or were not wearing a seat belt, this is a try on. Did the officer you spoke to confirm the passenger was earing a belt when you were stopped. If so on the balance of probabilities the passenger was most likely wearing a belt when the alleged offence took place.There should be no way this can be made to stick.
You could call the AA or RAC for advice.

[Admin]

I would fight it.
I do not believe they can be certain that you are or are not wearing a seat belt from the side of the road. There is no way they could tell if you were or were not wearing a seat belt, this is a try on. Did the officer you spoke to confirm the passenger was earing a belt when you were stopped. If so on the balance of probabilities the passenger was most likely wearing a belt when the alleged offence took place.There should be no way this can be made to stick.
You could call the AA or RAC for advice.

When the copper opened the passenger door, I said to her point blank "Does my friend currently have their seatbelt on (which it was) and did you see him put it on as we pulled in"? (which he didn't).

Her answer towards that was "No, but my colleague up the road radioed through to say he wasn't wearing a seatbelt".

In a nutshell, she didn't have a scooby and was relying on information passed down from a copper up the road that was feeding her inofrmation.

[chiefo]

Criminals out to catch criminals. Bloody disgusted. Although I guess the copper in question could've made an honest mistake. 079.gif

[win-dup]

Go to court, you have a really good chance they will either not show up or not have any evidence with them.  I got court speeding at 127 by the time the caught up to me I was only doing 91. Went to court and they had loss mislayed the evidence. This was after the court was adjourned 3 times through police no show. Worth a try especially if your in the right.

what a moron - 127?  in your dreams.

[nose]

I would fight it.
I do not believe they can be certain that you are or are not wearing a seat belt from the side of the road. There is no way they could tell if you were or were not wearing a seat belt, this is a try on. Did the officer you spoke to confirm the passenger was earing a belt when you were stopped. If so on the balance of probabilities the passenger was most likely wearing a belt when the alleged offence took place.There should be no way this can be made to stick.
You could call the AA or RAC for advice.

When the copper opened the passenger door, I said to her point blank "Does my friend currently have their seatbelt on (which it was) and did you see him put it on as we pulled in"? (which he didn't).

Her answer towards that was "No, but my colleague up the road radioed through to say he wasn't wearing a seatbelt".

In a nutshell, she didn't have a scooby and was relying on information passed down from a copper up the road that was feeding her inofrmation.

ok did she say how far up the road the other officer was because i am hoping that even if your passenger noticed a police officer, and as a result decided to put on the belt there wasn't enough time to get the belt on and the passenger get settled before you were pulled over.... the idea of it is ludicrous.  I am no expert but I think you should challenge the whole thing, but do make sure you know where the first officer was.

[terryr]

Go to court you will win

[stevehawkinslidingtackle]

We get persecuted in Thailand all the time by the Police, and mainly for being foreigners. It certainly has given me a different perspective on people that are discriminated against in the UK. As 'whites' we don't have a leg to stand on, as they make up stories, and always pocket our cash with a smug little face you just want to stick your fist into. Even though its rarely more than a 1000baht, (20quid), it still makes me sick the way they operate. Thai old bill dish out tickets to pocket money for themselves, UK old bill because in certain areas, as part of their quota, they have to collect a required number of tickets ( especially junior officers ).

For a number of reasons you would win this case though, including- ( you as a witness for your mate, copper giving the ticket did not witness it, which becomes hearsay evidence, which is inadmissible etc etc. With both of you acting likes gents in the box, and not getting irate at any time, any decent brief would get you off, and if money spent was a factor, I wouldn't worry, as you could claim back expenses at the court for traveling, loss of earnings etc, when you win.

Or you could just pay it, and be grateful they didn't find that kilo of smack in your glove box !

[Me-ate-Live, innit??]

Why let them get away


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=592416

[chiefo]

Absolutely spot on 100% And especially about the glove box. Lol

We get persecuted in Thailand all the time by the Police, and mainly for being foreigners. It certainly has given me a different perspective on people that are discriminated against in the UK. As 'whites' we don't have a leg to stand on, as they make up stories, and always pocket our cash with a smug little face you just want to stick your fist into. Even though its rarely more than a 1000baht, (20quid), it still makes me sick the way they operate. Thai old bill dish out tickets to pocket money for themselves, UK old bill because in certain areas, as part of their quota, they have to collect a required number of tickets ( especially junior officers ).

For a number of reasons you would win this case though, including- ( you as a witness for your mate, copper giving the ticket did not witness it, which becomes hearsay evidence, which is inadmissible etc etc. With both of you acting likes gents in the box, and not getting irate at any time, any decent brief would get you off, and if money spent was a factor, I wouldn't worry, as you could claim back expenses at the court for traveling, loss of earnings etc, when you win.

Or you could just pay it, and be grateful they didn't find that kilo of smack in your glove box !

[Logicalman]

Criminals out to catch criminals. Bloody disgusted. Although I guess the copper in question could've made an honest mistake. 079.gif

Don't insult those you know nothing about. Go live in a country that has either no law and order, or one that IS above the law, perhaps you'll start appreciating them a little more. Pathetic.

[Baszab]

 Happened to me in Bushey Park - but it was  a large-scale police operation - they had a guy at Teddington Gate examining each car for seatbelt/mobile phone use - got pulled in at first turn off where there were about 25 officers - I argued that the PO couldn't possibly have seen for certain if I had my belt or not - their argument was - "fight me in court if you wish "----- so depends where the first officer was who allegedly radioed on ahead and whether it was a special trap.

[Logicalman]

Happened to me in Bushey Park - but it was  a large-scale police operation - they had a guy at Teddington Gate examining each car for seatbelt/mobile phone use - got pulled in at first turn off where there were about 25 officers - I argued that the PO couldn't possibly have seen for certain if I had my belt or not - their argument was - "fight me in court if you wish "----- so depends where the first officer was who allegedly radioed on ahead and whether it was a special trap.

I can see why some forces believe this is a way to Police, but I still don't see it or agree with it. For drink driving, yes, but this is just a way to get the 'numbers' up for the HO stats, and believe me when I tell you that every beat and traffic copper has that read out to him on parade. I used to get pulled up for not issuing enough FP's, but not me, or any other copper I worked with would deliberately start issuing 'falsies' just to get the numbers up, not worth losing your job over.  If enough complaints come in for a particular copper for the same thing, he is looked at very carefully.

[nose]

Happened to me in Bushey Park - but it was  a large-scale police operation - they had a guy at Teddington Gate examining each car for seatbelt/mobile phone use - got pulled in at first turn off where there were about 25 officers - I argued that the PO couldn't possibly have seen for certain if I had my belt or not - their argument was - "fight me in court if you wish "----- so depends where the first officer was who allegedly radioed on ahead and whether it was a special trap.

and what happened? did you fight them in court? Or did you do what many people do and take the line of least resistance knowing the odds are stacked against you? By the way were you wearing your seat belt?

[Neil D]

Sounds like a classic 'swearing contest' with no physical proof, just the respective parties' say so.  In those situations, at least in North America, the judge normally sides with the officer, if the officer's story is reasonable.  I was in a proceeding once where the magistrate turned to the defendant and actually asked (rhetorically, I think), "Ma'am, what reason would the officer have to lie?"  She could have said, "To get a conviction, your honour", but instead she bit her tongue and just stared at the robed one making no pretense of impartiality. 

In the States, you have a Sixth Amendment right to face your accuser.  If he doesn't show up to testify in support of the charges and make himself amenable to cross-examination, then they have to toss out the charges.  Do you have an equivalent protective rule over there?  Traffic fines are the spine of district courts over here.  They pay the bills, the salaries of court staff, including the judges, their budgets, etc.  District courts are cash cows.  It's a racket, and it's premised upon sufficient fees obtained from guilty pleas and verdicts in traffic matters.  Police will write so many tickets, that for administrative convenience, the courts will schedule all of the tickets for a given period of time issued by the officer to be heard on the same day in court.  Time in court is time he's not on the street.  Officer X shows up on a Tuesday to testify if need be in 20-30 ticket cases.  Traffic laws defense attorneys, knowing that, plead not guilty and then move for as many reschedulings of the trial date as permitted.  By the time they get the case actually heard, the cop doesn't show--he or she won't likely make a special appearance for a one-off.  And, with no officer to testify, the case is dismissed. 

If you don't have civil procedure which permits such gamesmanship, and if you are willing to roll the dice, then you hire counsel to show that the spotter 1. couldn't tell with certainty from his vantage point that your passenger wasn't wearing a belt, based on sight lines, speed of car, location of spotter, time of day, etc.  Create reasonable doubt.

What an erudite insight into the machinations of the US judicial system!

[Baszab]

paid the fine - £30 no points - probably had slipped my mind to put the belt on - compulsory safety belt wearing is an infringement of my civil rights --- but that's another argument !!

[nose]

paid the fine - £30 no points - probably had slipped my mind to put the belt on - compulsory safety belt wearing is an infringement of my civil rights --- but that's another argument !!

no it's not.... it is protecting you from yourself.  it reduces the chances of blood in the event of an accident and i feel sure you do not like the sight of blood mon ami.

to be honest i occasionally forget to put on the belt but some of the fines seem draconian.

[Baszab]

Dislike of blood?

Are you possibly referring to that incident about 25 years ago when that bloke raked his boots down my shin leaving imprints in my bone. Then, as I am lying on the ground about to faint with blood splurting out of my leg , I scream at the ref "what the XXX was that?" and the Ref sends ME off !!

[nose]

Dislike of blood?

Are you possibly referring to that incident about 25 years ago when that bloke raked his boots down my shin leaving imprints in my bone. Then, as I am lying on the ground about to faint with blood splurting out of my leg , I scream at the ref "what the XXX was that?" and the Ref sends ME off !!

I was thought you had a dislike of blood, i thought that was what you told me yourself.
In any event you were referring to events that took place at the scrubbs i believe, it is still one of the strangest refereeing decisions I ever witnessed.