Is football over policed?

[Jimpav]

Read this on the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10748960

Wondered if anyone had any thoughts or comments.

[Rambling_Syd_Rumpo]

Read this on the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10748960

Wondered if anyone had any thoughts or comments.

Generally I'm happy with the policing at Fulham matches,never thought of it too be heavy handed I would like to see more police in the park when we play muppets like Stoke to be honest :clap_hands:

[Lighthouse]

It is not only numbers but attitude of the Police. Back in the dark old days of the 70s and 80s they treated all supporters, young and old, as potential trouble makers. I was sick of Police using Horses to control a large but well behaved line of people, lining up say to go into Putney Bridge underground. My Mum, God bless her, who would have been in her sixties I guess, told a copper on a horse off for using the horse in a dangerous way.

So I hope the Police will stop thinking every game is a potential powder keg ready to explode. Yes you have problems and God Knows the Stewards inside the ground should be better trained.. For a small fee I could do it for them. So yes over policed. Less police better attitude. We know it is a tough job THAT IS DONE VERY WELL, usually. So let them do that job with less.

The best traffic light is the one that breaks down. People are careful and polite and the traffic runs well. You always have the odd idiot which is why we have traffic lights in the first place. To control. We do not need over control. Just better distribution of less.

[White Noise]

I have long felt that there is not the need for the level of policing we see at our games and when you look at the costs to clubs (albeit it a small percentage of turnover for most) you do wonder how the police justify it.

I guess the other side of the coin is 'what price peace of mind'. Just having a visible police presence may disuade troublemakers and may also reassure some fans and mean that more people attend games because they have a feeling of security when they do.

I found this quote from Jimpav's piece very difficult to believe -

Andrew Holt, the Assistant Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police who speaks on football issues for ACPO, said 43% of Premier League matches now had no police presence, instead relying solely upon the clubs' stewards.

[finnster01]

I have long felt that there is not the need for the level of policing we see at our games and when you look at the costs to clubs (albeit it a small percentage of turnover for most) you do wonder how the police justify it.

I guess the other side of the coin is 'what price peace of mind'. Just having a visible police presence may disuade troublemakers and may also reassure some fans and mean that more people attend games because they have a feeling of security when they do.

I found this quote from Jimpav's piece very difficult to believe -

Andrew Holt, the Assistant Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police who speaks on football issues for ACPO, said 43% of Premier League matches now had no police presence, instead relying solely upon the clubs' stewards.

Spot on Mr WN.
Show me a single prem league game with no police presence and I am Albert Einstein.

[CorkedHat]

I was at Derby when Fulham sent them down to the Championship.
For a while there it got very hairy with quite a few Derby supporters wanting to mix it with us. Thank God that I had Fulham Footie Chick, Chez, Big Mamma and KCat there to protect me – who needs police when you've got the fearless foursome on hand? :dft002:

[Lighthouse]

I was on Earls Court underground when by pure bad luck, a numbe of supporters from different clubs all found themselves there. Police dogs barked and Policeman sweated and began shouting. A little Police Woman walked to the front and began telling the fans to calm down. It worked. Mind you in those days it would harm a yobs reputation threatening or hitting a woman, even a police woman. Not sure how true that is nowadays.

[epsomraver]

Not sure where he gets the figures from regarding policing and 43%, I think he may mean league matches, I have never been to a match at Fulham without a police presence, sometimes I think there are too many considering who we are playing, always been two mounted opposite the station by the park gates,  Fulham have also at least 6 police manning the barriers for the dear residents so they can park on match days

[boxhockcycsock]

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, I say. It's kind of like all the safety features in your car. 90% of the time they're of no use and hurt your fuel economy, but...

I can imagine a lot of police don't get training on crowd control. I've been to a fair amount of matches here where I get dirty looks just for showing up to watch a bit of sport.  :002:

[Scrumpy]

I agree with Boxythingywatnot. Football is a tribal pastime and I wouldn't want the police presence to be much lower than it is now. I like to think that the Police are hovering unseen in the background, ready to spring into action, running from hidden nooks and crannies when the Stewards feel unable to cope.

I don't know if my judgement is clouded by memories of the 80s, but I still feel there is potential at almost every match for something to 'kick off'. It just needs 1 fan in the wrong end, 1 pissed bloke to insult his mates girlfriend, a group of lads to be sat in someone elses seats - all have the potential to get beyond the control of even our marvellously trained ( :005:) stewards.

[Scrumpy]

There was a game against Leeds Utd in, I think, 1983. We had just come up from the 3rd Div and beat them 3-2.

I got off the 85 bus with my mate, and we would have been absolutely smashed to pieces by the Leeds crowd coming out of Putney Bridge station if it was not for the 3 Coppers running away from them in our direction!!

[FatFreddysCat]

There was a game against Leeds Utd in, I think, 1983. We had just come up from the 3rd Div and beat them 3-2.

I got off the 85 bus with my mate, and we would have been absolutely smashed to pieces by the Leeds crowd coming out of Putney Bridge station if it was not for the 3 Coppers running away from them in our direction!!

Hahaha i was only 15 and i remember havinga ruck at that one.

[Lighthouse]

I love this site. I was at the game as well.  I stood outside my car leaning on it with my arms crossed   as a gang of Leeds yobs approached looking for the Fulham Firm. But seeing as I had an FSO Saloon (A Polish Lada) I think they thought that it had already taken a pasting and so just passed. Here was me thinking it was my tough pose. Nevermind

[FatFreddysCat]

On the downside that game produced the most scummy behavior i've seen at a football match (ive been present at). The leeds fans were chucking oaps down the stairs in the Stevenage rd stand, vile scum, i was gutted they didn't go bust.

[Logicalman]

Boxy and Scrumpy make very pertinent points here, that's not saying the others aren't, but speaking from experience, I can tell you that the level of policing has always been considered high when there's been no trouble, but also too low when somethings kicked off. That may sounds like an obvious statement to make, but as Scrumpy  mentions, there's always some potential.

Boxy, I can assure you that ALL 'real' Police at such sporting events are trained mate. I stress 'real' because there has been a tendency in the past 10-15 years for the police forces to be substituted with the glorified Hobby Bobby, and there very few regulars that have enjoyed seeing this occur. Not only because the level of commitment and professionalism has been reduced, but the occurrences of overtime, etc, went with them.

I was in the contingent that made up the Bournemouth Leeds game back in 1990, when we were confronted with 5000 (mostly drunken) Leeds fans having no tickets outside the game. Skirmishes had occurred since lunchtime the day before, and - all apart from petrol bombs and firearms - it reminded some veterans of the NI troubles at times. When they couldn't get in the ground, we spent a couple of hours in a serious riot situation. One of those coppers injured that day was my squad partner, as we were pelted with concrete, sticks, bricks and anything else that could be uprooted or torn down and used. Even after the event, all our arrests, that were conveniently filmed by the BBC and suchlike, were then subject to reviews and Officers were questioned further, in my case, during the Court Case at Winchester Crown Court.

I understand the FSF spokesperson wanting less Police presence, and perhaps a more even-handed policy, and I agree to am point, but when something does kick-off, how many members of the FSF will be there to try and control it and place themselves in danger? Bugger all I would imagine, and that goes for 99% of all supporters as well, not suggesting for one minute they should though.

Maybe the question should not be how many police should attend, but solely, they should be better trained in the art of controlling a calm crowd.

[RidgeRider]

Thanks for that Logical, I was waiting for you to chime in as I knew you had first hand experience.

So the question I have, and I am sure if I would read one of the several books on the topic I would know the answer but I may never get to it, is what has changed since the bad old days of the 70's & 80's when hooliganism was a real problem?

Is it purely socio-economic?

Does the game have a broader appeal now so more families are attending as has been brought up in these posts? Why is that do you think? Games are safer so bringing family is good idea now?

[Lighthouse]

The price in relative terms nowadays means you can't bring your relatives. Hence the phrase.

It is no longer a game where school kids can afford to go in a gang. I would imagine the average age of those attending games has gone up. So in the 70s and 80s and most of the 90s it was a game for everybody. Now it is a game for television and those with a bit of money.

Which is why we need better policing but less of it.

[RidgeRider]

The price in relative terms nowadays means you can't bring your relatives. Hence the phrase.

It is no longer a game where school kids can afford to go in a gang. I would imagine the average age of those attending games has gone up. So in the 70s and 80s and most of the 90s it was a game for everybody. Now it is a game for television and those with a bit of money.

Which is why we need better policing but less of it.

ah, same thing has taken place here, where most sports are so expensive to attend, that the majority of the crowd are professionals and thus not looking to have a 'punch up' with opposing fans..they are much too concerned about their nannies, kitchen remodels, asset portfolio, and what's the coolest restaurant to eat this week.

[Jimpav]

I would suggest that the game under more scrutiny after the high profile disasters of the 80's. Although only Heysel was caused by hooliganism, Hilsborough seemed to draw the game into parliament and the rulings that followed had an affect.

Hard to say though because there are still instances of "hooliganism" (not sure about that word, it seems quite snobbish) as demonstrated by the clashes between Milwall v Westham.

I also heard that it was dying out because some of the old boys had got hernias :dft012:  

[Scrumpy]

Good thread this one!

Fred - We're roughly the same age mate. I was a 16 year old wannabe hooligan at the time!

Logicalman - Very interesting comments. I'm guessing that your colleagues on match duty nowadays have a slightly easier time of things. But I think I am in the majority when I say that just knowing that the 'real' police are hanging around iin the background gives you a certain peace of mind. What are your views on the figure that 43% of Premiership matches don't have a police presence? Sounds like BS to me.

RR, JimPav and LH - You're all right in what you say. I think the Government came down very tough on Football  after Hilsborough, Bradford and Heysel. ID cards, dawn raids and all-seater stadiums meant that the punishment for hooliganism far exceeded any thrill you might get from it. (The natural bi-product of all seater stadiums was the 'Season Ticket culture'. If an away fan jumps up and cheers a few seats in front nowadays, your first impulse might be to hit him. A milli-second later, you think 'What about my Season Ticket? I don't want to lose that.' In the old days you would have to join the queue to get a punch in!)
At the same time, the vast majority of white working class families began getting more affluent and moving gently into the Middle Classes. There's a reason why most hooligans nowadays are middle-aged; their kids are all putting hair gel in their hair, texting and uploading pictures onto facebook, sitting at lap-tops or playing video games. Their parents didn't have these luxuries. The working classes nowadays (in London anyway, but perhaps less so up North) are from ethnic minorities, with less interest in football but seemingly just as much of an interest in gang warfare.
Finally, as Beamer says, the price nowadays means that it is beyond most working class fans, or even lower middle class fans to go regularly. Hence the increase in 'tourist' fans who chatter through most of the game, never travel away and take 25 minutes over their half-time drink. (Yes, I have some issues with these fans! But maybe they will 'evolve' into die-hards one day).