Author Topic: Whats right, whats wrong.  (Read 1504 times)

Offline FulhamStu

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Whats right, whats wrong.
« on: April 05, 2017, 07:17:18 AM »
So many massive over-reactions to last nights results.  It's of course down to dissapointment and the realisation that the chances are we will not make the playoffs dispite being so close.  Of course it's not over yet, but our run in was always seriously difficult. Put it this way, if we do make it, winning at Wembley is most definitely doable.

I want to spend a few minutes reflecting on this team that Slav has put together and comment on some myths that now seem to be constantly repeated.

1. This is a brand new team, new manager, mostly new players and new high risk style of play.

2. The team is built to keep the ball, made up of players good on the ball with pace out wide and up front but has sacrificed solid defensive capability for attacking flair and intent.

3. At the back, we have an adequat keeper who Tim flowers says get the nod due to his footballing skills, he is however a keeper and not an outfield player.  I think he is prone to panic and lacks enough to need an upgrade if we can afford it.   Kalas is a good enough starter but Ream like Button has good attributes but lacks pace, toughness and is just not a good enough defender.  Should be backup, Madl also good backup and Siggurdson just not good enough.   Our fullbacks are more offensive than defensive which means our central defenders and McDonald,who is excellent, must be better.

4. In midfield defensively McDonald needs a strong backup, if he got injured we would be stuffed.  I would class our 4 wing backs as midfield players more than defenders and they are good enough and Slav rotates them well.  They do a lot of mileage and we are in good shape here.  Johansen has no backup and needs one, you can see his level has dropped probably because he has run so much his legs need a rest.  Cairney is a wonderfully creative played, useless defensively but needs a backup, Jozabed would be this player if we still had him.  By the way, I think LVC could be Johansens backup and arguably it was a mistake to send him on loan but he did need games.

5. Attacking wise we have pace and ability and can score goals.  The Martin factor is more than odd and I fail to see why Cyriac never starts.  We will need 2 good central goal scoring strikers next season but are well placed with Kebano. Aluko and Ayite

6. We don't need a plan b.  You can't go from our style to wack it up to a big guy.  Yes you need to adjust to the opposition, maybe get it forward quicker, but to totally change is impossible.  Do the top teams change style, no they don't, you just have to do it better.

Our problems are lack of defensive strength, largely caused by our high risk, footballing style, but also by a lack of quality defenders and leadership.  Parker needs replacing not for his football ability but his leadership.  A seriously good central defender and goalkeeper plus a technically excellent but strong, good in the air striker are our no1 needs with better backup in midfield.  Add in to this a real leader and we will be not far away.

We have come a long way, we are an excellent footballing team lovely to watch but to win things you have to be able to defend.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 07:26:43 AM by FulhamStu »

Offline Woolly Mammoth

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2017, 07:38:03 AM »
FulhamStu, you have made excellent observations, and your analysis is spot on in my view.

Offline Snibbo

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2017, 08:47:46 AM »
 :plus one:
FulhamStu, you have made excellent observations, and your analysis is spot on in my view.


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2017, 09:07:17 AM »
We have come a long way, we are an excellent footballing team lovely to watch but to win things you have to be able to defend.
You saved the most important thing in football for last.  Although you make several important and accurate observations I think your first one, about newness, is the most tacit answer to all that follows.  Jokanovic has had to rebuild the shambles of several seasons of mismanagement by all senior personnel at this football club.  He has had to fight against the odds for everything we have achieved, and to be in with a shot at promotion with a lack of real support and effort from the backroom staff shows how much he, his coaching staff and the players have grown up over the period from July last year to now.  With the core in place then this summer, whichever way the season pans out, is when Khan Jr's real test will come.  Is he man enough to get the job done properly?  It is a seriously difficult question to answer, and I think he really needs to step up a level if he wants to stand a chance of success with this Club.

Offline @jolslover

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2017, 09:18:04 AM »
So many massive over-reactions to last nights results.  It's of course down to dissapointment and the realisation that the chances are we will not make the playoffs dispite being so close.  Of course it's not over yet, but our run in was always seriously difficult. Put it this way, if we do make it, winning at Wembley is most definitely doable.

I want to spend a few minutes reflecting on this team that Slav has put together and comment on some myths that now seem to be constantly repeated.

1. This is a brand new team, new manager, mostly new players and new high risk style of play.

2. The team is built to keep the ball, made up of players good on the ball with pace out wide and up front but has sacrificed solid defensive capability for attacking flair and intent.

3. At the back, we have an adequat keeper who Tim flowers says get the nod due to his footballing skills, he is however a keeper and not an outfield player.  I think he is prone to panic and lacks enough to need an upgrade if we can afford it.   Kalas is a good enough starter but Ream like Button has good attributes but lacks pace, toughness and is just not a good enough defender.  Should be backup, Madl also good backup and Siggurdson just not good enough.   Our fullbacks are more offensive than defensive which means our central defenders and McDonald,who is excellent, must be better.

4. In midfield defensively McDonald needs a strong backup, if he got injured we would be stuffed.  I would class our 4 wing backs as midfield players more than defenders and they are good enough and Slav rotates them well.  They do a lot of mileage and we are in good shape here.  Johansen has no backup and needs one, you can see his level has dropped probably because he has run so much his legs need a rest.  Cairney is a wonderfully creative played, useless defensively but needs a backup, Jozabed would be this player if we still had him.  By the way, I think LVC could be Johansens backup and arguably it was a mistake to send him on loan but he did need games.

5. Attacking wise we have pace and ability and can score goals.  The Martin factor is more than odd and I fail to see why Cyriac never starts.  We will need 2 good central goal scoring strikers next season but are well placed with Kebano. Aluko and Ayite

6. We don't need a plan b.  You can't go from our style to wack it up to a big guy.  Yes you need to adjust to the opposition, maybe get it forward quicker, but to totally change is impossible.  Do the top teams change style, no they don't, you just have to do it better.

Our problems are lack of defensive strength, largely caused by our high risk, footballing style, but also by a lack of quality defenders and leadership.  Parker needs replacing not for his football ability but his leadership.  A seriously good central defender and goalkeeper plus a technically excellent but strong, good in the air striker are our no1 needs with better backup in midfield.  Add in to this a real leader and we will be not far away.

We have come a long way, we are an excellent footballing team lovely to watch but to win things you have to be able to defend.

great post +1

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 09:19:40 AM »
Every team needs to be built around a strong spine. Other than McDonald and Johanson in midfield we simply have a very weak central spine. We have done really well and gone above expectations. But we are not good enough yet.


Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 09:28:12 AM »
Every team needs to be built around a strong spine. Other than McDonald and Johanson in midfield we simply have a very weak central spine. We have done really well and gone above expectations. But we are not good enough yet.
Agree totally with this.  Kalas is very good but not what I would call a dominant central defender.  Unless we can get him for around £4M, I would concentrate on bringing in 2 strong experienced central defenders who have also got strong leadership qualities.  Have Ream and Madl as backup and say goodbye to Sig.  Add 2 mobile but strong and good in the air central strikers and backup to McDonald and Johansen.   Spend significant money, but spent it wisely.  Next season, target top 2 not top 6.  That would be fun.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:30:17 AM by FulhamStu »

Offline Finnegans Wake

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 09:57:19 AM »
So many massive over-reactions to last nights results.  It's of course down to dissapointment and the realisation that the chances are we will not make the playoffs dispite being so close.  Of course it's not over yet, but our run in was always seriously difficult. Put it this way, if we do make it, winning at Wembley is most definitely doable.

I want to spend a few minutes reflecting on this team that Slav has put together and comment on some myths that now seem to be constantly repeated.

1. This is a brand new team, new manager, mostly new players and new high risk style of play.

2. The team is built to keep the ball, made up of players good on the ball with pace out wide and up front but has sacrificed solid defensive capability for attacking flair and intent.

3. At the back, we have an adequat keeper who Tim flowers says get the nod due to his footballing skills, he is however a keeper and not an outfield player.  I think he is prone to panic and lacks enough to need an upgrade if we can afford it.   Kalas is a good enough starter but Ream like Button has good attributes but lacks pace, toughness and is just not a good enough defender.  Should be backup, Madl also good backup and Siggurdson just not good enough.   Our fullbacks are more offensive than defensive which means our central defenders and McDonald,who is excellent, must be better.

4. In midfield defensively McDonald needs a strong backup, if he got injured we would be stuffed.  I would class our 4 wing backs as midfield players more than defenders and they are good enough and Slav rotates them well.  They do a lot of mileage and we are in good shape here.  Johansen has no backup and needs one, you can see his level has dropped probably because he has run so much his legs need a rest.  Cairney is a wonderfully creative played, useless defensively but needs a backup, Jozabed would be this player if we still had him.  By the way, I think LVC could be Johansens backup and arguably it was a mistake to send him on loan but he did need games.

5. Attacking wise we have pace and ability and can score goals.  The Martin factor is more than odd and I fail to see why Cyriac never starts.  We will need 2 good central goal scoring strikers next season but are well placed with Kebano. Aluko and Ayite

6. We don't need a plan b.  You can't go from our style to wack it up to a big guy.  Yes you need to adjust to the opposition, maybe get it forward quicker, but to totally change is impossible.  Do the top teams change style, no they don't, you just have to do it better.

Our problems are lack of defensive strength, largely caused by our high risk, footballing style, but also by a lack of quality defenders and leadership.  Parker needs replacing not for his football ability but his leadership.  A seriously good central defender and goalkeeper plus a technically excellent but strong, good in the air striker are our no1 needs with better backup in midfield.  Add in to this a real leader and we will be not far away.

We have come a long way, we are an excellent footballing team lovely to watch but to win things you have to be able to defend.

Spot on.

Offline colinwhite

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 10:01:43 AM »
Great post Stu ,agree with most of it.


Offline Keynsham

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 10:24:56 AM »
Top post.

Offline Robbie

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 12:29:16 PM »
Basically two mad mistakes cost us at least a draw !

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2017, 12:40:04 PM »
Excellent post.  In short the defending isn't good enough. 

I particularly agree with questioning the wisdom of letting LVC out on loan. 


Offline Logicalman

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2017, 01:54:25 PM »
FulhamStu, totally agree 100% with what you have said, and I'd just like to add to why I think point 3 is more pertinent than some might believe.

It has become the 'norm' in recent years for the keeper to be used more and more as the 11th outfield player by the continual passing of the ball back to him to initiate another move from the back. Unfortunately this has come about from the push to have everything build from the back by way of game play and avoiding the inevitable punt up-field, but it is being abused by defenders who see it as a cheap and easy way out, and as we have seen time and time again, such back passes can be fraught with danger, especially if the opposing side have a runner up front who is willing to chase those balls to the keeper.
This isn't just an issue for us, but so many times we see the same issue occurring in Prem matches as well. Perhaps this is why managers/coaches like the idea of a keeper who is good with his feet as well as his hands, but tactics that promote back-passes in all cases might not be the best way to use those keepers' skills or those of the defenders and their responsibility.


Offline dannyboi-ffc

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2017, 06:30:19 PM »
We still have it in our own hands believe it or not. Apart from being 7th instead of 6th not much has changed.  If we win all 6 games we will finish in the playoffs. So now is not the time to start getting angry, we need to stick with the team.

The way we play and the amount of possession we have, we are always going to make individual mistakes.

I don't understand why Cyriac never gets a chance. But more so Madl. That's the only decision that baffles me from Slav. The last few weeks we've created little and conceded loads. Imo Kalas is better next to Madl.

Am I right in thinking despite how much Fredericks offers a threat and pace, we seem to be better balanced with Odoi. Do we over commit having 2 adventurous fullbacks? Our two left backs love getting forward so is that why we make mistakes and get caught out?

Other than that I haven't got the energy to criticise. I still think we're under achieving but Joka has done a great job and long may it continue. Hopefully we win Saturday convincingly, go 6th and then stay there. 


Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2017, 09:35:34 PM »
We still have it in our own hands believe it or not. Apart from being 7th instead of 6th not much has changed.  If we win all 6 games we will finish in the playoffs. So now is not the time to start getting angry, we need to stick with the team.

The way we play and the amount of possession we have, we are always going to make individual mistakes.

I don't understand why Cyriac never gets a chance. But more so Madl. That's the only decision that baffles me from Slav. The last few weeks we've created little and conceded loads. Imo Kalas is better next to Madl.

Am I right in thinking despite how much Fredericks offers a threat and pace, we seem to be better balanced with Odoi. Do we over commit having 2 adventurous fullbacks? Our two left backs love getting forward so is that why we make mistakes and get caught out?

Other than that I haven't got the energy to criticise. I still think we're under achieving but Joka has done a great job and long may it continue. Hopefully we win Saturday convincingly, go 6th and then stay there. 


Danny, if you think I am being critical you have got me totally wrong.  I am just trying to debate how things can be improved and give some insight into my view of where we could or should improve.  What the team and Slav have done this season is wonderful and given all us fans much to be optimistic about.
I will give you a big reason why Slav talks about mistakes and why they are costing us:

A team that lumps it forward quickly, then makes an error and losses possession.  That lost possession is away from the goal and you go on the defensive and see out the problem using the whole team as a defensive unit.

A team however, that tries to play from the keeper and the back, that losses possession as quickly, is unable to recover and the opposition can very quickly create a goal scoring chance and goal.

I know all the reasons to play as we do, and I am totally supportive of it, however, to play this way is high risk and you need top top players, especially at the back to be able to recover and deal with the defensive demands.   We push on the full backs so far, our central defenders are even more key than in most defences.  To help us play this way and win, we need the few true defenders to be absolutely outstanding.

This is the way our style can gain top 2 if we don't do it via the playoffs this year, which I totally agree is still possible.


Offline dannyboi-ffc

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2017, 10:25:03 PM »
We still have it in our own hands believe it or not. Apart from being 7th instead of 6th not much has changed.  If we win all 6 games we will finish in the playoffs. So now is not the time to start getting angry, we need to stick with the team.

The way we play and the amount of possession we have, we are always going to make individual mistakes.

I don't understand why Cyriac never gets a chance. But more so Madl. That's the only decision that baffles me from Slav. The last few weeks we've created little and conceded loads. Imo Kalas is better next to Madl.

Am I right in thinking despite how much Fredericks offers a threat and pace, we seem to be better balanced with Odoi. Do we over commit having 2 adventurous fullbacks? Our two left backs love getting forward so is that why we make mistakes and get caught out?

Other than that I haven't got the energy to criticise. I still think we're under achieving but Joka has done a great job and long may it continue. Hopefully we win Saturday convincingly, go 6th and then stay there. 


Danny, if you think I am being critical you have got me totally wrong.  I am just trying to debate how things can be improved and give some insight into my view of where we could or should improve.  What the team and Slav have done this season is wonderful and given all us fans much to be optimistic about.
I will give you a big reason why Slav talks about mistakes and why they are costing us:

A team that lumps it forward quickly, then makes an error and losses possession.  That lost possession is away from the goal and you go on the defensive and see out the problem using the whole team as a defensive unit.

A team however, that tries to play from the keeper and the back, that losses possession as quickly, is unable to recover and the opposition can very quickly create a goal scoring chance and goal.

I know all the reasons to play as we do, and I am totally supportive of it, however, to play this way is high risk and you need top top players, especially at the back to be able to recover and deal with the defensive demands.   We push on the full backs so far, our central defenders are even more key than in most defences.  To help us play this way and win, we need the few true defenders to be absolutely outstanding.

This is the way our style can gain top 2 if we don't do it via the playoffs this year, which I totally agree is still possible.
We still have it in our own hands believe it or not. Apart from being 7th instead of 6th not much has changed.  If we win all 6 games we will finish in the playoffs. So now is not the time to start getting angry, we need to stick with the team.

The way we play and the amount of possession we have, we are always going to make individual mistakes.

I don't understand why Cyriac never gets a chance. But more so Madl. That's the only decision that baffles me from Slav. The last few weeks we've created little and conceded loads. Imo Kalas is better next to Madl.

Am I right in thinking despite how much Fredericks offers a threat and pace, we seem to be better balanced with Odoi. Do we over commit having 2 adventurous fullbacks? Our two left backs love getting forward so is that why we make mistakes and get caught out?

Other than that I haven't got the energy to criticise. I still think we're under achieving but Joka has done a great job and long may it continue. Hopefully we win Saturday convincingly, go 6th and then stay there. 


Danny, if you think I am being critical you have got me totally wrong.  I am just trying to debate how things can be improved and give some insight into my view of where we could or should improve.  What the team and Slav have done this season is wonderful and given all us fans much to be optimistic about.
I will give you a big reason why Slav talks about mistakes and why they are costing us:

A team that lumps it forward quickly, then makes an error and losses possession.  That lost possession is away from the goal and you go on the defensive and see out the problem using the whole team as a defensive unit.

A team however, that tries to play from the keeper and the back, that losses possession as quickly, is unable to recover and the opposition can very quickly create a goal scoring chance and goal.

I know all the reasons to play as we do, and I am totally supportive of it, however, to play this way is high risk and you need top top players, especially at the back to be able to recover and deal with the defensive demands.   We push on the full backs so far, our central defenders are even more key than in most defences.  To help us play this way and win, we need the few true defenders to be absolutely outstanding.

This is the way our style can gain top 2 if we don't do it via the playoffs this year, which I totally agree is still possible.

I'd agree with all that. To be honest my post was directed at the title.  Sadly I didn't have time to read any of the posts which is a sin lol. I was just saying what I thought was right and wrong at the moment.

Offline Twig

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »
I don't disagree with everything in your post BUT;

2. The team is built to keep the ball, made up of players good on the ball with pace out wide and up front but has sacrificed solid defensive capability for attacking flair and intent. Well for a team built to keep the ball we surrender possession too easily, too often.

3. At the back, we have an adequate keeper who Tim flowers says get the nod due to his footballing skills, he is however a keeper and not an outfield player. Sorry, but in some aspects adequate but in others woeful. Overall it was obvious in January that we needed a top keeper.  All the best Fulham sides have enjoyed that advantage, it was one of the areas we clearly needed to make a signing and failed.

Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Whats right, whats wrong.
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2017, 10:47:57 AM »
I don't disagree with everything in your post BUT;

2. The team is built to keep the ball, made up of players good on the ball with pace out wide and up front but has sacrificed solid defensive capability for attacking flair and intent. Well for a team built to keep the ball we surrender possession too easily, too often.

3. At the back, we have an adequate keeper who Tim flowers says get the nod due to his footballing skills, he is however a keeper and not an outfield player. Sorry, but in some aspects adequate but in others woeful. Overall it was obvious in January that we needed a top keeper.  All the best Fulham sides have enjoyed that advantage, it was one of the areas we clearly needed to make a signing and failed.
OK, well disagree with you mate.   Of course we lose the ball, even Barcelona lose the ball sometimes but all you need to do is look at the stats and you will see we have massive amounts of possession.  I would agree a lot of that possession is sideways and in our own half but we generally keep the ball better than most.   The issue with losing the ball is that we sometimes do this is areas where the opposition are able to hurt us badly, the roll out by Button to the Derby player for the 4th goal being an example.

Most keepers esp at Championship will not be perfect.  Button is certainly not at the level of keepers we have had in the Permier league but he is not abissmall.  I would agree a better keeper would help us given the way we play leads to the opposition getting more goal scoring chances than if we played it safe.  I would also like a more dominant keeper who comes off his line with a bit of confidence.  But Button is not as bad as you suggest, he was man of the match at the weekend !