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Honestly... what do we think of Slav now?

Started by Brawn, January 17, 2018, 07:32:16 AM

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davew

Quote from: bog on January 17, 2018, 01:20:24 PM
I have been supporting for 65 years and he is on the list of managers who I feel content with. There have been many who I have not been! One thing is that we now win a lot of away games and we never used to. 


092.gif
+ 1
Grandson of a Former Director of FFC (served 1954 - 1968)

Brawn

Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM
A couple of things:

1) "There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results."  Well, that in itself suggests it's not always "sideways or rubbish." And there have been some excellent games, away to Cardiff being the best example.

The whole point of my post is that results aren't everything for me, much like Martin Jol.

Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM2) "The defending is increasingly haphazard too."    Er, 8 goals conceded in the last 8 games, increasingly haphazard? I think not.

This is exactly the same argument I used to defend Dan Burn for two years. Statistically, we conceded fewer goals per 90 minutes when he played vs when he didn't. The problem with this is that now, older and wiser, I realise that it's perhaps more the entries into the box and shots conceded that are more important. Defending is not the same as goalkeeping: one could concede 100 shots in a match and keep a clean sheet with Bettinelli saving all of them, but that doesn't make the defence good.

Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PMSorry, but I thought a lot of this post is simply misinformed at best, plain wrong in other regards. This may well be because you haven't seen enough of us this year. We have had a problem in the final third, I think that's true, and consequently our possession does not always lead to the number of goals we would hope for, but I am not sure that Joka is totally responsible for that - I don't know the extent to which signings have or haven't been made at his behest.

But as a head coach, isn't it Jokanovic's responsibility to get the best out of the players and instruct them what to do? The argument you're presenting is the current bunch of attackers are incapable of entering the box and shooting. Perhaps it's a moot point, but I think the "walk it in" mentality is coming from Slav, not from the players.

RaySmith

Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM
A couple of things:

1) "There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results."  Well, that in itself suggests it's not always "sideways or rubbish." And there have been some excellent games, away to Cardiff being the best example.

The whole point of my post is that results aren't everything for me, much like Martin Jol.

Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM2) "The defending is increasingly haphazard too."    Er, 8 goals conceded in the last 8 games, increasingly haphazard? I think not.

This is exactly the same argument I used to defend Dan Burn for two years. Statistically, we conceded fewer goals per 90 minutes when he played vs when he didn't. The problem with this is that now, older and wiser, I realise that it's perhaps more the entries into the box and shots conceded that are more important. Defending is not the same as goalkeeping: one could concede 100 shots in a match and keep a clean sheet with Bettinelli saving all of them, but that doesn't make the defence good.

Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PMSorry, but I thought a lot of this post is simply misinformed at best, plain wrong in other regards. This may well be because you haven't seen enough of us this year. We have had a problem in the final third, I think that's true, and consequently our possession does not always lead to the number of goals we would hope for, but I am not sure that Joka is totally responsible for that - I don't know the extent to which signings have or haven't been made at his behest.

But as a head coach, isn't it Jokanovic's responsibility to get the best out of the players and instruct them what to do? The argument you're presenting is the current bunch of attackers are incapable of entering the box and shooting. Perhaps it's a moot point, but I think the "walk it in" mentality is coming from Slav, not from the players.

At the bottom line results are everything -
Q-Where is the team/manager who only gets bad results, however nice the football they play?
A- Relegated, manager sacked.


Brawn

Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.

Ok so firstly, Bettinelli, Ream, Fredericks, Cairney... you though all these players looked as good under Symons as they do now, did you?

Yes, no, yes, yes. If anything, I think Betts looked better than he does now.

Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PMSecondly, every manager should get a window and a chance to bring in new players. Hodgson had that and he built a good team. Symons had 2 windows and we were still crap. Jokanovic is comparable to Hodgson. Do we complain that Hodgson was "carried" by his own players, Hangeland and Zamora? 

Firstly, I wouldn't call 12th place at the time of Kit's sacking crap.

Secondly, of course not. Hodgson and Kit did well with players that weren't theirs - Roy gave us the great escape with Sanchez's squad, and Kit took us out of that omnishambolic start with Magath's players.

toshes mate

Kit Symons's affection for Fulham shone through and is clearly still alive and worthy of mention whenever we talk about him.  My measure is that since leaving Fulham he has held assistant roles under Chris Coleman, and clearly, in my opinion, that is his level.  He is an exceptional assistant.  My one criticism of him is that he couldn't, at Fulham, get to the next stage of ambition - success on the field and off it.  I suspect Fulham would have been mid-table forever.  At least under SJ you get the overwhelming sense that his belief in success is real and tangible no matter how you deal the cards to him.  He is a hard working professional who awkwardly balances a life in England with his family in Spain.  He has a plan and he is confident it'll work; only time and obstructions beyond his control will beat or defeat him.  He knows what is required of him and has the will of his coaching staff to produce.   I can only imagine what he would do with a first rate upper echelon behind him all the way.

Count Flapula

Weirdly, the team who play "backwards and sideways rubbish" were the divisions top scorers last season and 4th highest this season...

Don't think I'll be waving my "JOKA OUT" placard too furiously just yet thanks.


Joseffc

Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 04:42:25 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.

Ok so firstly, Bettinelli, Ream, Fredericks, Cairney... you though all these players looked as good under Symons as they do now, did you?

Yes, no, yes, yes. If anything, I think Betts looked better than he does now.

Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PMSecondly, every manager should get a window and a chance to bring in new players. Hodgson had that and he built a good team. Symons had 2 windows and we were still crap. Jokanovic is comparable to Hodgson. Do we complain that Hodgson was "carried" by his own players, Hangeland and Zamora? 

Firstly, I wouldn't call 12th place at the time of Kit's sacking crap.

Secondly, of course not. Hodgson and Kit did well with players that weren't theirs - Roy gave us the great escape with Sanchez's squad, and Kit took us out of that omnishambolic start with Magath's players.

Seem to be reaching for reasons to dislike the man from reading the thread. fair enough if you're simply not a fan of his style and persona, I can understand that.

But to go as far as making the statements above... Bettinelli was very young and raw when Symons was in charge, Ream looked poor, Fredericks was a headless chicken going forward and his defending is now much improved and Cairney has played BY FAR his best football under Slav. And on Kit, he did great considering where we were when he took over, but it became clear that he'd hit a ceiling!

Bassey the warrior

One has to wonder whether Brawn would rate Slav higher if he was British and named Sam rather than Slav?

bobbo

1975 just leaving home full of hope


colinwhite

#69
What do I really think of Slav ? Simple -an excellent coach who not only gets results but is also able to turn average players into decent, can unlike many other trainers coach an amazing brand of attacking  football, and is not scared of playing with his best team even it means upsetting people.Add to that his abillity to convince our best players to stay at the club, as well as his willingness to both try and play very young talented players and what do you have ? Simply put ,one of the best coaches we have ever had, where IMO only Tiganas side played the sort of football that can compare with what we saw from the team  last season.
He has one fault and that is that he doesnt seem to suffer fools gladly. So If i was you Brawn I wouldnt be sending him a copy of your summary any time soon !!

Bassey the warrior

Quote from: colinwhite on January 17, 2018, 08:17:18 PM
What do I really think of Slav ? Simple -an excellent coach who not only gets results but is also able to turn average players into decent, can unlike many other trainers coach an amazing brand of attacking  football, and is not scared of playing with his best team even it means upsetting people.Add to that his abillity to convince our best players to stay at the club, as well as his willingness to both try and play very young talented playersand what do you have ? Simply put ,one of the best coaches we have ever had, where IMO only Tiganas side played the sort of football that we saw last season.
He has one fault and that he doesnt seem to suffer fools gladly. So If i was you Brawn I wouldnt be sending him a copy of your summary any time soon Brawn !!

This. Good post.

General

We've arguably had a worse team this year and in the next couple of games could be in a far better position than we were in last year, despite A) having loads of injuries B) losing as mentioned key players and C) only really starting to get results since November...

For me the style we play in, the fact players enjoy playing for us - sin new contracts and come back for second loans is largely due to the fact we have slavisa here..

My only frustration is that I don't think the club are supporting him properly in the transfer window and the clubs general approach to transfers (with statisticians etc) leaves a lot to be desired. Slav clearly believes he knows what he needs, the type of player he'd work well with and how to move us up a gear.. and seeing as khan's got money but is just using it poorly it's frustrating.


General

Quote from: davew on January 17, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Quote from: bog on January 17, 2018, 01:20:24 PM
I have been supporting for 65 years and he is on the list of managers who I feel content with. There have been many who I have not been! One thing is that we now win a lot of away games and we never used to. 


092.gif
+ 1

+1 up there with Jean Tigana and Roy Hodgson in that regard and results in my time as a fan.. few have compared more favourably

Whitesideup

Thank you Brawn. Your totally daft post sparked a great and reasoned response. I think the Barmy Army may have a couple of vacancies .. I suggest you apply.  Whatever we think of the post, it certainly wasn't boring!

General

Also, for perspective slavisa has a 41% win ratio, which is similar to that of David moyes at Everton... which at the time was consistently top 7 in the premiership at the time. If he gets supported financially for players and replicates his former for the premiership noone here would complain.

I wonder how that stats stacks up against fulham managers full stop.


Woolly Mammoth

I think all in all, so far Jok is a pretty good egg.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Bill2

We are all entitled to our opinion but in my opinion SJ is our best manager since Tigana, we play fast attractive football, we are just outside the play off positions and stringing together a series of good results.

Clubs are queueing up for a number of our players and I firmly believe no one wants to play us with the style of football we play. Should we be so stupid as to get rid of him he will not be out of work for long.

The Old Count

The silliest thread on here for a while.

All Brawn and no brain.


Twig


Lighthouse

Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope