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Our defensive unit is currently shocking !

Started by Riversider, July 25, 2018, 11:00:12 AM

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Riversider

Quote from: Statto on July 17, 2019, 09:11:12 PM
Quote from: Riversider on July 17, 2019, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 17, 2019, 09:14:30 AM
So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

No I'm not happy with our defence. I didn't say I was. FWIW I think we desparately need a better right-sided CB than Odoi, and I also think Christie, whilst decent at Championship level, is a downgrade on Fredericks.

However, the post I was replying to didn't say "are you happy with our back 4?" It said (1) "We need a left back that is better than Matt Targett", (2) "We need a right back that is better than Ryan Fredericks" and (3) "And a centre back that is better than Dennis Odoi". I was replying to that post to say, essentially, that I strongly disagree with (1) and (2) and I believe we satisfied (3) by signing Mawson.

If I may offer some advice, if you've a particular thought in mind, you should try to write that in your post clearly and accurately. If you write something fundamentally different, most people, with the exception of Derren Brown, Mystic Meg and Uri Geller, are likely to reply to the point you've written, rather than the point in your mind.

It's only you that seemingly has had a problem understanding the point, I don't think I could have made it any clearer, in a nutshell for you, our defence isn't good enough and better players need to be brought in, capiche ?

The Rational Fan

#101
Quote from: Riversider on July 17, 2019, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 17, 2019, 09:11:12 PM
Quote from: Riversider on July 17, 2019, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 17, 2019, 09:14:30 AM
So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

No I'm not happy with our defence. I didn't say I was. FWIW I think we desparately need a better right-sided CB than Odoi, and I also think Christie, whilst decent at Championship level, is a downgrade on Fredericks.

However, the post I was replying to didn't say "are you happy with our back 4?" It said (1) "We need a left back that is better than Matt Targett", (2) "We need a right back that is better than Ryan Fredericks" and (3) "And a centre back that is better than Dennis Odoi". I was replying to that post to say, essentially, that I strongly disagree with (1) and (2) and I believe we satisfied (3) by signing Mawson.

If I may offer some advice, if you've a particular thought in mind, you should try to write that in your post clearly and accurately. If you write something fundamentally different, most people, with the exception of Derren Brown, Mystic Meg and Uri Geller, are likely to reply to the point you've written, rather than the point in your mind.

It's only you that seemingly has had a problem understanding the point, I don't think I could have made it any clearer, in a nutshell for you, our defence isn't good enough and better players need to be brought in, capiche ?

Under FFP it doesn't matter what we need, it only matters what we can afford. Gone are the days you can go to the owner to spend more money, the budget is fixed and the only debate is how do we spend that money and can we sell players to buy other players.

Our defense of Christie, Odoi, Mawson, Ream, MLM and Bryan is a better backline than all championship except five teams Huddersfield, Cardiff, Stoke, Middlesbrough and Bristol. Importantly all those teams didn't score near enough goals and only two of those teams "scored more than a goal per game" last season.

Last season, we averaged 1.58 against the bottom six premier league teams. If we can repeat that performance against the top eight teams, and we average 2 points per game against the middle 12 teams and we get six points against the lowest three teams, then we have 91 points.

I see Leeds, WBA, Brentford and maybe Cardiff as good at beating the bottom of the division, they are the teams most likely to succeed. The best attacks get promoted simple, get 90 points is about getting 27 wins a season mostly against the below average teams.

The Rational Fan

I have noticed that the bookies give the same odds for Mitro winning the golden boot and Fulham winning the league. I would wonder what are chances of getting promoted are if Mitrovoic isn't one of the top goalscorers next season, my guess is virtually zero. Excessive reliance of Miteovoic to score is our number one weakness.


Riversider

Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 18, 2019, 01:18:03 AM
I have noticed that the bookies give the same odds for Mitro winning the golden boot and Fulham winning the league. I would wonder what are chances of getting promoted are if Mitrovoic isn't one of the top goalscorers next season, my guess is virtually zero. Excessive reliance of Miteovoic to score is our number one weakness.

The pressure will be on Mitro if we continue to ship goals at the other end, having to score just to get a point isn't good enough, we must start producing clean sheets, and at the moment we have a defence that is a long way from being able to do that,
We've only got 3 pre season games left to form a settled defence before the season starts, And that's not enough time sadly.

Sting of the North

Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 18, 2019, 01:18:03 AM
I have noticed that the bookies give the same odds for Mitro winning the golden boot and Fulham winning the league. I would wonder what are chances of getting promoted are if Mitrovoic isn't one of the top goalscorers next season, my guess is virtually zero. Excessive reliance of Miteovoic to score is our number one weakness.

I thought you believed our number one weakness was that we didn't have enough players making assists?

The Rational Fan

#105
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 18, 2019, 10:50:07 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 18, 2019, 01:18:03 AM
I have noticed that the bookies give the same odds for Mitro winning the golden boot and Fulham winning the league. I would wonder what are chances of getting promoted are if Mitrovoic isn't one of the top goalscorers next season, my guess is virtually zero. Excessive reliance of Miteovoic to score is our number one weakness.

I thought you believed our number one weakness was that we didn't have enough players making assists?

I guess i did say both which is not rationale, i meant the number one weakness of the first XI is assists and number one weakness of the squad is Mitro backup, but i love good backup and it's something are DoF can give us. A small squad requires a smart DoF and deep squad requires a DoF good at getting money to pay them all, our DoF strengths very firmly lean to the later.

I'm worried about attacking backup, but everyone else here seems to be worried about our defense and can we keep a clean sheet, if i remember correctly Odoi, MLM, Ream and Bryan went nearly 360 minutes without conceeding a goal in the premier league (without our best defender Mawson). Personally, even without Mawson I think we can get 15 clean sheets next season (like 17/18), but can we score in 41 games (the 17/18 tally) without Mitro i'm doubt it.

This so called crap defense in its last seven games against top tier clubs has had three clean sheets, conceded one goal three times and had one shocker bringing Mawson back too early for injury. Defensively, that's six out of seven games we have conceeded one goal or less (excellent) against stronger teams than most of the championship. Attacking wise in these seven games we have not scored on four occasions, scored one goal twice and two goals once.

In the last seven games we have scored four goals, had three clean sheets and conceeded seven goals, plus we have lost more attacking players than defensive players since last season.


Stoneleigh Loyalist

#106
In my ignorance may I ask where Cisse is in all of this?
He is still listed as a member of the First Team Squad but he never seem to get a look in at all. Is it that he does not suit our style or is just not liked by the management?
I have never seen enough of him to judge his play but from when he has played he seems to be no better or worse than the choices we have at present.
If he is surplus to requirements get him off the pay roll.

The Rational Fan

Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on July 18, 2019, 11:26:20 AM
In my ignorance may I ask where Cisse is in all of this?
He is still listed as a member of the First Team Squad but he never seem to get a look in at all. Is it that he does not suit our style or is just not liked by the management?
I have never seen enough of him to judge his play but from when he has played he seems to be no better or worse than the choices we have at present.
If he is surplus to requirements get him off the pay roll.

The reports are Cisse played well against Nigeria in the Africa Cup. I think he could suit our style but McDonald and Chambers have kept him out of the team. Cisse could take McDonalds place this season season if KMac doesn't deliver and Cisse is a very good sub for Cairney when we are ahead wanting to lock down a result. We need squad players especially with an aging midfield and marathon season.

Whitesideup

Much reference has been made to last year but the real reference point should be our last season in the Championship. I think we have sufficient quality for this division. Tend to think that we may be over-reliant on Mitro up-front.


The Rational Fan

#109
How can you can this defensive unit be shocking when it went 360 minutes in the premier league without conceeding a goal, plus in the last seven games against top tier teams it has only conceeded more than one goal once in seven games? In the same seven games with three clean sheets, Fulham has only scored four goals in the seven games. Since Parker, defense is more of a strength than a weakness, plus Mawson will rejoin the team in the backline, where as Seri and R.Sess seem set to leave the attack.

Parker's Record (including 10 premier league games plus  Burnley and Porto friendly) 12 Games 8 Goals Scored (4 Babel, 1 Chambers, 1 Atiye, 1 Cairney and 1 Penalty) 20 Goals Conceeded. Converting that to a 38 Game Seasons that is 25 goals scored (2nd worst last season) and 63 goal conceded (6th worst last season). Once again attack not defense has been Fulham weakness under Parker, although that was a massive turn around.

Sting of the North

Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 18, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
How can you can this defensive unit be shocking when it went 360 minutes in the premier league without conceeding a goal, plus in the last seven games against top tier teams it has only conceeded more than one goal once in seven games? In the same seven games with three clean sheets, Fulham has only scored four goals in the seven games. Since Parker, defense is more of a strength than a weakness, plus Mawson will rejoin the team in the backline, where as Seri and R.Sess seem set to leave the attack.

Parker's Record (including 10 premier league games plus  Burnley and Porto friendly)
12 Games 8 Goals Scored (4 Babel, 1 Chambers, 1 Atiye, 1 Cairney and 1 Penalty) 20 Goals Conceeded

Converting that to a 38 Game Seasons that is 25 goals scored (2nd worst last season) and 63 goal conceded (6th worst last season).

As per usual, it does your arguments no favours when you just cherry pick the statistics that suits your arguments. I do agree that our defenders when given a chance in a more stable system is fairly capable. However, you cannot only look at a small sample size from last season. If so, my counterargument is to look at the last game against a low scoring lower half opponent in Newcastle. They scored 4 goals on us. That is of course also a nonsensical argument.

The argument should most likely instead be that if the team gets a proper chance to gel and regain some confidence, they may be fairly capable. Further, if you would like to draw comparisons then our last season in the Championship is probably a better measurement on our chances to defend properly. Despite what some may believe, we had the 7th best defence (in terms of goals against) only 1 more goal conceded than the fourth best defensive team. Last year that number would have put us as the third best team defensively in the Championship. If SP gets the team to play as a unit, I will not be worried about the quality of our players.

So, I agree that our defenders are most likely good enough for this level, but disagree with how you arrive at that conclusion.

The Rational Fan

#111
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 18, 2019, 02:00:01 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 18, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
How can you can this defensive unit be shocking when it went 360 minutes in the premier league without conceeding a goal, plus in the last seven games against top tier teams it has only conceeded more than one goal once in seven games? In the same seven games with three clean sheets, Fulham has only scored four goals in the seven games. Since Parker, defense is more of a strength than a weakness, plus Mawson will rejoin the team in the backline, where as Seri and R.Sess seem set to leave the attack.

Parker's Record (including 10 premier league games plus  Burnley and Porto friendly)
12 Games 8 Goals Scored (4 Babel, 1 Chambers, 1 Atiye, 1 Cairney and 1 Penalty) 20 Goals Conceeded

Converting that to a 38 Game Seasons that is 25 goals scored (2nd worst last season) and 63 goal conceded (6th worst last season).

As per usual, it does your arguments no favours when you just cherry pick the statistics that suits your arguments. I do agree that our defenders when given a chance in a more stable system is fairly capable. However, you cannot only look at a small sample size from last season. If so, my counterargument is to look at the last game against a low scoring lower half opponent in Newcastle. They scored 4 goals on us. That is of course also a nonsensical argument.

The argument should most likely instead be that if the team gets a proper chance to gel and regain some confidence, they may be fairly capable. Further, if you would like to draw comparisons then our last season in the Championship is probably a better measurement on our chances to defend properly. Despite what some may believe, we had the 7th best defence (in terms of goals against) only 1 more goal conceded than the fourth best defensive team. Last year that number would have put us as the third best team defensively in the Championship. If SP gets the team to play as a unit, I will not be worried about the quality of our players.

So, I agree that our defenders are most likely good enough for this level, but disagree with how you arrive at that conclusion.

We could upgrade many positions and improve. our defense and midfield are the most settled part of the team. We don't need to fix what is weak, we need to work out the best way to upgrade, improve goal difference and win 27 games next season.

The attack losing Babel, R.Sess and others, a series of great upgrades on the wings will make us a handful, which also stops full-backs flying at Christie. In addition, as great a player as Mitrovoic is, what he isn't is a 90 minuties for 46 games a season plus internationals kind of player. If we can build the best front line in the league this transfer window including backups, i'm sure the backline will hold out keeping goal conceeded to under 57 like Norwich. Alternatively, if we upgrade the backline, we will have to be aiming to keep goal conceeded to Sheffield Uniteds level, which is hard for a new centre back pairing.