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Shearer On Christie

Started by Dodgin, October 07, 2018, 11:33:51 PM

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toshes mate

Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction.  Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....

Luka

Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?

toshes mate

Quote from: Carborundum on October 09, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2018, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 09, 2018, 10:42:15 AM
That was Christie playing to the best of his ability. That is the issue. We needed to recruit a quality full back due to Fredericks departing, we failed. Not really Christie's fault nor is it the managers fault.
I don't think we have seen, and may be will not see, Christie playing to the best of his ability.  I do not see him as a natural wing back.  He has neither the pace nor the guile to take on defenders on either foot, which means he is, at best, a full back

Those who saw him in the Fulham v Middlesbrough match at the Cottage might disagree with this.  Trouble was, he was wearing a Middlesbrough shirt.  He scored and caused us no end of trouble.
Mmm, good point.  But I was referring to him playing in the present FFC eleven, twelve, thirteen, or fourteen, which would have probably resulted in him getting a hat trick playing against us.....


Matt10

#63
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?

The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal

FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.

So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.

Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.

The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.

MJG

Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?

The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal

FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.

So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.

Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.

The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.
Others things to note is that In Sess and Christie, attacking wise they are different. Christie will hug the touchline looking to receive the bal (As show on he touches and heatmaps) and be seen as  the outlet to get to the byline, where Sess is much more the runner direct or in to space inside. My moan at him is he needs to cross quicker.
Just the views of a long term fan

snarks

Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction.  Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....

True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').


Matt10

Quote from: MJG on October 10, 2018, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?

The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal

FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.

So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.

Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.

The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.
Others things to note is that In Sess and Christie, attacking wise they are different. Christie will hug the touchline looking to receive the bal (As show on he touches and heatmaps) and be seen as  the outlet to get to the byline, where Sess is much more the runner direct or in to space inside. My moan at him is he needs to cross quicker.

Agreed. Same can be said for Freddo last year who focused on beating his man first. I highlighted this in my Rui Fonte and Ayite video that shows how our forwards couldn't capitalize on their runs into the box as a result. Christie doesn't take on his man, at least not with pace, but his crosses are pretty dangerous. Not sure why some say they aren't. Had one in the first that Mustafi read just in time, another where Sess tried to go in with his left instead of his right, Kamara's of course, then Mitro pushes Mustafi, or Holding, can't remember, in the back.


Matt10

Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction.  Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....

True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').

That's the thing, I 100% believe Christie was following instructions. The video doesn't lie, in the 3-back, he's looking at Monreal's positioning. If Monreal doesn't push, he stays high. If Iwobi beats Zambo or Odoi, he drops. I can't imagine he chose to be lazy and not track back if he wasn't instructed told to.

AnOldBrownie

Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction.  Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....

True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').

That's the thing, I 100% believe Christie was following instructions. The video doesn't lie, in the 3-back, he's looking at Monreal's positioning. If Monreal doesn't push, he stays high. If Iwobi beats Zambo or Odoi, he drops. I can't imagine he chose to be lazy and not track back if he wasn't instructed told to.

Why not?  Maybe his endurance levels were low.     It's not like I've seen him run his ars off when he wasn't participating in an attack.   He could have easily been tired.



Denver Fulham

Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?

FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.

So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.


If this is how he was instructed to play, that's ridiculous. We can't have one of our two central midfielders tracking back to cover a wing defensively. Show the screenshots of the acres of space in our midfield as Arsenal collected second balls and had man-advantages going forward.

RaySmith

Players are only human, not Supermen. Going on a run up the wing with the ball, then getting back can be exhausting, if not impossible to keep up. All players have to pace themselves to last  90 minutes.

Also, if you look  back and see an opposition player haring  towards your goal with the ball, you might realise that it's impossible  and a waste of energy trying to catch him - and just a token effort, when others should be covering you defensively anyway.

Think back to schooldays - kids always chase after the ball in a pack, and teachers tell you to stay in position.

Christie could, as he said, have been following the manager's instructions, who wanted  attacking wing backs- to stay  fairly high up the field.