NFR - Judge Rules Against Liverpool Owners

[Logicalman]

P.S. ignore any anti-yank jibes from the press or Lpool fans, they are misinformed idiots if they think that the fact these investors are American is the problem.

Exactly the point I was making.

The problem isn't the fact that H & G are American, it's because they are H & G, and their nationalities, no matter what the supporters of Poo and ManUre want to think or spout, has sod-all to do with anything, and as far as I have seen on this MB, is not something that has been claimed by those posting on here.

HD,
The problem I see with the argument about if they have filed anything at all in the states concerning the purchase of Liverpool cannot surely stand the stringent of tests, can it?
By what you say, If I purchase a motorcycle in the UK and then bring it back over here and register it here (and pay import duty) then are you claiming the laws of the United States supercedes those of the country of sale? Even if I purchase it on a credit card issued in the US? If that was the true case, then that would make anything purchased overseas almost impossible to own outright, as you would have the laws of both countries imposing their own ownership laws upon it. Concerning the Triumph mentioned, if the sale occurred in the UK then yes, there would be a jurisdiction attached - regardless of registration, because for the motorcycle to be legally sold in the US it would have had to be imported, thus relieving the UK of such ownership. This involves the sale of an asset IN the UK, by people outside of the UK.

Quoting Richard Snowden QC, the barrister for RBS, "The proceedings in Texas are plainly inappropriate, This dispute involves an English football club and three English companies and has no connection with Texas other than that Hicks and Gillett may reside there. It is a plain attempt to frustrate and impede the proceedings." , seems to indicate that it is also the position of RBS that there is no jurisdictional relief available to H & G in Texas, or anywhere else outside of the jurisdiction of the UK.

Obviously something for the lawyers to sort out, but the result could have a very lasting impact on whether the FA will allow foreign buyers of football teams to continue.

[Logicalman]

The thing that I find interesting is that in the US, having a well spoken British accent makes people think that you are intelligent (in my experience anyway).

Only with the ladies  :dft012:  :dft011:

[RidgeRider]

I have no expertise in these matters so this is merely opinion but personally I think it is a 'hail mary' attempt to disrupt the proceedings long enough to find another buyer willing to pay more..... the anti-Yank thing seems to be isolated at best and if things are allowed to proceed, the new owners would be Yanks as well, which makes the whole anti-Yank thing sort of mute.

I think Liverpool supporters and the club just want H&G out, cause it looks like they are fine with new Yank owners coming in, if I understand things correctly

[HatterDon]

Mr. Logicalman, he said trying to sound logical, my Triumph motorcycle analogy works if the original owner in Hartlepool claims that the person selling the vehicle in Bayonne, NJ doesn't have clear title.

An injunction over here may be granted because the plaintiff says that there are variables that MUST be considered that HAVEN'T been considered by the court bearing jurisdiction. As for the comments of the English QC, you'd hardly expect him to say, "Blimey, I'd never thought of the possibility that there might be a legal counter-argument worth considering."

Whether his name is followed by QC or Esq., he's still a lawyer and he obfuscates for a living.

[Logicalman]

Mr. Logicalman, he said trying to sound logical, my Triumph motorcycle analogy works if the original owner in Hartlepool claims that the person selling the vehicle in Bayonne, NJ doesn't have clear title.

An injunction over here may be granted because the plaintiff says that there are variables that MUST be considered that HAVEN'T been considered by the court bearing jurisdiction. As for the comments of the English QC, you'd hardly expect him to say, "Blimey, I'd never thought of the possibility that there might be a legal counter-argument worth considering."

Whether his name is followed by QC or Esq., he's still a lawyer and he obfuscates for a living.

Then speaking logically, if the motorcycle was already in the US the sale would be illegal unless it had been imported lawfully, thus any title ownership would either have been granted upon entry into the US or, is null and void as any attempt to sell it in the US would be deemed illegal (I believe you are obliged to register any motor vehicle intended to remain in the US and if you are bringing it in to sell it, you must also declare that on the customs forms at point of entry to the US as being the reason for import see here for further info).

As for the variables not being considered, I would have imagined that as G & H actually BROUGHT the High Court action, then they would have thought of all the variables so that they could have such grounds to bring the action to begin with, rather than thinking "Darn, I wish we had thought of that when we paid all that money to our QC to bring the action in the place that actually HAS the jurisdiction". So, either they brought such variables up in the High Court action but lost and so decide to try their hand back home, or they forgot all about the reason why they believed they had such rights and only remembered them afterward, either way, they appear rather idiotic.

[epsomraver]

Hicks has now thrown another spanner in the works by selling his share to a hedge fund, evergreen I think, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9094283.stm

[Logicalman]

Hicks has now thrown another spanner in the works by selling his share to a hedge fund, evergreen I think, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9094283.stm

VERY shrewd move by Hicks, to throw his lot in with Mill Financial (who already own Gillett's shares due to his defaulting on his loan agreement from 2007).

It gets him out from under this problem, as well as Gillett, and put the fight between two very large financial institutions. I stand corrected, he ain't such an idiot as I stated he was and the injunction appears to have been simply an attempt at the stay an appeal would have given them, time to offload. Now lets see how Mill does in the fray.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Hicks has now thrown another spanner in the works by selling his share to a hedge fund, evergreen I think, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9094283.stm

VERY shrewd move by Hicks, to throw his lot in with Mill Financial (who already own Gillett's shares due to his defaulting on his loan agreement from 2007).

It gets him out from under this problem, as well as Gillett, and put the fight between two very large financial institutions. I stand corrected, he ain't such an idiot as I stated he was and the injunction appears to have been simply an attempt at the stay an appeal would have given them, time to offload. Now lets see how Mill does in the fray.

The guardian are reporting it as both sides have effectively until 4.30pm today to get it done, it turned into a race.

I wish I could say that I feel sorry for Lpool, but I do not. The idea that they think they are a big club who have been ruined by these guys is laughable. 20 years without a league title has shown what a small team they actually are.

[The Equalizer]

Hicks has now thrown another spanner in the works by selling his share to a hedge fund, evergreen I think, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9094283.stm

VERY shrewd move by Hicks, to throw his lot in with Mill Financial (who already own Gillett's shares due to his defaulting on his loan agreement from 2007).

It gets him out from under this problem, as well as Gillett, and put the fight between two very large financial institutions. I stand corrected, he ain't such an idiot as I stated he was and the injunction appears to have been simply an attempt at the stay an appeal would have given them, time to offload. Now lets see how Mill does in the fray.

The guardian are reporting it as both sides have effectively until 4.30pm today to get it done, it turned into a race.

I wish I could say that I feel sorry for Lpool, but I do not. The idea that they think they are a big club who have been ruined by these guys is laughable. 20 years without a league title has shown what a small team they actually are.

I've got to disagree mate. I feel sorry for any English club that gets hoodwinked by a couple of Shysters, other than 'that lot' of course.
There are too many English clubs being bought by big-money-men with either no money or a desire to use the club as a financial trampoline to kick start other ventures and write-off tax losses. Before anyone buys a club, there needs to be some serious due-diligence both from that club and from the FA. If Liverpool get bought by some new nameless company, who's to say that the same won't happen again?

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Hicks has now thrown another spanner in the works by selling his share to a hedge fund, evergreen I think, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9094283.stm

VERY shrewd move by Hicks, to throw his lot in with Mill Financial (who already own Gillett's shares due to his defaulting on his loan agreement from 2007).

It gets him out from under this problem, as well as Gillett, and put the fight between two very large financial institutions. I stand corrected, he ain't such an idiot as I stated he was and the injunction appears to have been simply an attempt at the stay an appeal would have given them, time to offload. Now lets see how Mill does in the fray.

The guardian are reporting it as both sides have effectively until 4.30pm today to get it done, it turned into a race.

I wish I could say that I feel sorry for Lpool, but I do not. The idea that they think they are a big club who have been ruined by these guys is laughable. 20 years without a league title has shown what a small team they actually are.

I've got to disagree mate. I feel sorry for any English club that gets hoodwinked by a couple of Shysters, other than 'that lot' of course.
There are too many English clubs being bought by big-money-men with either no money or a desire to use the club as a financial trampoline to kick start other ventures and write-off tax losses. Before anyone buys a club, there needs to be some serious due-diligence both from that club and from the FA. If Liverpool get bought by some new nameless company, who's to say that the same won't happen again?

I understand where you are coming from, but these clubs (and the Premier League) are reaping what they sow. Lpool, Utd, Chelsea and Man City have decided that lavish spending is the only way forward and have attempted to distance themselves (rather successfully) from the other teams who cannot afford to keep up. Whilst this happens and people call this league the best in the world, REAL competition is being stifled with by and large the same 4 teams dominating year on year. Arsenal have been doing the correct fiscally responsible schtick and have pretty much accepted defeat when it comes to winning trophies for a few years and will eventually reap the benefits.

When a club like Lpool, Chelsea, Man City or Man Utd get into trouble I will laugh because they have had it coming, they have all spend beyond their means to a massive extent.

I know that as a Fulham fan I have to be careful about talking about clubs living beyond their means but after the initial flurry of investment, this club has been all about trying to steady the ship financially and get the books to balance. This ultimately means we will end up in the Champo at some stage, the hope is that because we have been fiscally responsible we wil survive.

[finnster01]

Mr AFC,

You make some good points. However as far as silverware goes, actually Liverpool has picked up more recent trophies than the Arse (FA Cup). In fact it has been suggested by some on this site that the European flight black-out was not actually caused by an Icelandic volcano but by a cleaning lady at the Emirates opening the trophy cabinet.

I don't see it ever changing at the Emirates as long as that annoying French baguette is still there. Him and his "lets just do like Michael Jackson and sign another 11 year old for fun and giggles" and wait for next season is getting a tad old.   

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Mr AFC,

You make some good points. However as far as silverware goes, actually Liverpool has picked up more recent trophies than the Arse (FA Cup). In fact it has been suggested by some on this site that the European flight black-out was not actually caused by an Icelandic volcano but by a cleaning lady at the Emirates opening the trophy cabinet.

I don't see it ever changing at the Emirates as long as that annoying French baguette is still there. Him and his "lets just do like Michael Jackson and sign another 11 year old for fun and giggles" and wait for next season is getting a tad old.   

That is my point, Lpool have done better than Arsenal because they have spent more.

As for Arsenal, it depends what they look for. When the stadium debt is fully paid off (which should be soon) Arsenal will be raking in the cash legitimately. That is when they will start spending and winning. Can the fans wait that long? If they are proper fans they should be able to - I am sure consistent attractive football and Champs League football every season has helped to soften the blow of no silversware.

[Logicalman]

I've got to disagree mate. I feel sorry for any English club that gets hoodwinked by a couple of Shysters, other than 'that lot' of course.
There are too many English clubs being bought by big-money-men with either no money or a desire to use the club as a financial trampoline to kick start other ventures and write-off tax losses. Before anyone buys a club, there needs to be some serious due-diligence both from that club and from the FA. If Liverpool get bought by some new nameless company, who's to say that the same won't happen again?

I agree with you EQ, but, it was up to Liverpool to do such due diligence, and as AFC almost mentioned, as Fulham fans we need to count ourselves fortunate that Mo wasn't specifically tested as a Fit and Proper Person, or, given his (and his brothers) propensity for not quite being as forward as they could be concerning their wealth, etc, I fear we might have not had the luxury of such a benefactor that has proved many people in the business world wrong about him. Mo may not have been able to pass what we would prefer to have as an F & PP test, but then again, he has proven that one test cannot really discern a persons true character, and so we need to be mindful that H & G might well have had a better past than Mo. Perhaps the proposal put forward in another place on this subject (if I recall correctly) that any financing needs to be shown as above board, and, perhaps, a personal fiscal commitment from such persons needs to be made, thus avoiding the Glaziers and H & G debacle we now see unfolding.


(NOTE: The fact I mention two American owners is in no way representative of my, or any other person that I am aware of, views as to American ownership of any English football club, and was used solely as an example due to the teams that are involved)

[HatterDon]

Well, congratuations are in order to all Liverpool supporters. No longer is your club owned by a hated American partnership of one Texan and one New Englander. No! In a stunning return to your real roots, your club is now COMPLETELY owned by a New Englander. This is real progress.  :005:


I give NESV a month before the whining machine is turned on again -- or two days if Bill's Blue Mob turns them over on Sunday.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Well, congratuations are in order to all Liverpool supporters. No longer is your club owned by a hated American partnership of one Texan and one New Englander. No! In a stunning return to your real roots, your club is now COMPLETELY owned by a New Englander. This is real progress.  :005:


I give NESV a month before the whining machine is turned on again -- or two days if Bill's Blue Mob turns them over on Sunday.

It will indeed be interesting to see if the moaning starts once there is not a £40m transfer kitty at the end of the season.