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LFC fans in Riverside Ejected

Started by Neil D, March 17, 2019, 06:54:54 PM

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snarks

Quote from: Westlondonffc on March 20, 2019, 08:49:50 AM
The club and some of our fans it seems couldn't care less who ends up at the games. Also do you really think it would be possible to have a good atmosphere without an element of tribalism? Would you lot really not have minded if we had Derby fans next to us at the play off game?

I agree with that to some extent, there should be areas of the ground that are strictly home and away sections. The tribalism makes for a better atmosphere.

However, I think once you move out of those areas there should be the opportunity for fans to intermix. The problem comes, when the "tribalism" areas are sold out and given the make up of some supporters shifting those to mixed areas. Hence I think it's right at home matches there is only a designated sector for away fans which is why I like Fulham's neutral end and always have done.

TBH anyone that sits in the opposing teams area and can't sit on their hands for 90 minutes doesn't deserve to stay there, it's as simple as that. I have done it many a time, and not because I've been in fear of opposition fans (Southampton, Bournemouth, Portsmouth are recent examples) but simply out of respect for where I am. It's what you do.

Chesh

Quote from: Westlondonffc on March 20, 2019, 08:49:50 AM
The club and some of our fans it seems couldn't care less who ends up at the games. Also do you really think it would be possible to have a good atmosphere without an element of tribalism? Would you lot really not have minded if we had Derby fans next to us at the play off game?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm talking about this particular incident, in these particular circumstances. Read the very first post in this thread, and this is what I have been trying to respond to. Would never advocate carte blanche infiltration of home ends, although I do think people should be able to handle things better without running to the stewards at the first sight of someone in the wrong end.

Made in Hammersmith (1968)

ffcne

Quote from: Chesh on March 19, 2019, 09:10:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 19, 2019, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: Chesh on March 19, 2019, 06:51:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 19, 2019, 06:31:42 PM
Whilst I agree the club may be culpable to some extent, that should not in any way mitigate the Scouse Dad's behaviour. If you forget to lock your front door and get robbed, yes you've been a fool for letting that happen but does that mean the robber hasn't done anything wrong?
I do find it funny, the lengths that people are going to to make out he has committed such a heinous crime by being in the wrong end at a football match.

If it isn't comparing his 'infiltration' to Heysel, it's robbers  :dead horse:

I'll leave it to The Rational Fan to make his own explanation but for my part, I find one of the best ways to show someone's logic is flawed is to apply that logic to a different scenario which, whilst analogous in all material respects, is more extreme in other respects, making the implications of that flawed logic much more stark and dramatic

You're quite right to say robbery is a more "heinous crime" than the stupidity, ignorance and brass neck this bloke showed at the Cottage. But in both cases the fundamental logic, that a wrong committed by one person is made less serious if another person's negligence gave them the opportunity to commit it, is exactly the same... and just as flawed

Also, let's be honest, he's a Liverpool fan, so he's most likely a thief anyway
I just think this is one of those examples where you say 'come on it's a naive bloke with his kids - let them be for christ sake'. Life's to short to make it such a big issue and spoil the kids day when there was the chance to be grown up about it.


Naive Bloke??
Come on he knows exactly what he is doing.
Doing something he is not supposed to do .
Kids or no kids .In fact think it is worst doing it with kids.
It does'nt work  and is an insult to home fans.
Unless you keep your mouth shut.


The Rational Fan

#103
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 20, 2019, 08:26:40 AM
Quote from: gang on March 20, 2019, 08:17:22 AM
Why couldn't he just buy the tickets from Liverpool and if they sold their allocation just don't go? The seats he used were for Fulham supporters, how many of Fulham fans couldn't buy tickets because the game was sold out and therefore missed the game?
And how many Fulham supporters chose not to because they considered that the cost of tickets was roo high?

The prices are high, because the demand is high. If you want to share the stand with fans from other teams, then expect to pay even more. If Liverpool fans are welcome, you will have to compete with them for tickets and there are at least 25,000 Liverpool fans from London willing to pay £95 per ticket once a year.

Chesh

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 20, 2019, 08:26:40 AM
Quote from: gang on March 20, 2019, 08:17:22 AM
Why couldn't he just buy the tickets from Liverpool and if they sold their allocation just don't go? The seats he used were for Fulham supporters, how many of Fulham fans couldn't buy tickets because the game was sold out and therefore missed the game?
And how many Fulham supporters chose not to because they considered that the cost of tickets was roo high?

The prices are high, because the demand is high. If you want to share the stand with fans from other teams, then expect to pay even more. If Liverpool fans are welcome, then there are at least 25,000 Liverpool fans from London willing to pay £95 per ticket once or twice a year.
Unfortunately, that's exactly how the club sold this game - separate question from the original post though
Made in Hammersmith (1968)

Chesh

Quote from: ffcne on March 20, 2019, 09:23:46 AM
Quote from: Chesh on March 19, 2019, 09:10:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 19, 2019, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: Chesh on March 19, 2019, 06:51:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 19, 2019, 06:31:42 PM
Whilst I agree the club may be culpable to some extent, that should not in any way mitigate the Scouse Dad's behaviour. If you forget to lock your front door and get robbed, yes you've been a fool for letting that happen but does that mean the robber hasn't done anything wrong?
I do find it funny, the lengths that people are going to to make out he has committed such a heinous crime by being in the wrong end at a football match.

If it isn't comparing his 'infiltration' to Heysel, it's robbers  :dead horse:

I'll leave it to The Rational Fan to make his own explanation but for my part, I find one of the best ways to show someone's logic is flawed is to apply that logic to a different scenario which, whilst analogous in all material respects, is more extreme in other respects, making the implications of that flawed logic much more stark and dramatic

You're quite right to say robbery is a more "heinous crime" than the stupidity, ignorance and brass neck this bloke showed at the Cottage. But in both cases the fundamental logic, that a wrong committed by one person is made less serious if another person's negligence gave them the opportunity to commit it, is exactly the same... and just as flawed

Also, let's be honest, he's a Liverpool fan, so he's most likely a thief anyway
I just think this is one of those examples where you say 'come on it's a naive bloke with his kids - let them be for christ sake'. Life's to short to make it such a big issue and spoil the kids day when there was the chance to be grown up about it.


Naive Bloke??
Come on he knows exactly what he is doing.
Doing something he is not supposed to do .
Kids or no kids .In fact think it is worst doing it with kids.
It does'nt work  and is an insult to home fans.
Unless you keep your mouth shut.
I'm not debating whether he was in the wrong or not - I'm questioning how it was dealt with.

Don't get me wrong, I was very happy with the way QPR were battered out of the enclosure 20 years ago, and other times when I've witnessed away fans get 'removed' by our own fans when they've come in to take the p***. But if you can't see the difference in this occurrence, and the common sense that could have been shown, then we would just be arguing all day.
Made in Hammersmith (1968)


filham

Quote from: Neil D on March 19, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
The more posts I read on this thread the more I regret not asking the stewards to let them stay and the more I regret my comment about Liverpool supporters in general.  It just adds grist to the mill of unwarranted intolerance.  If they had been mouthy yobs, then obviously they should have been ejected.  If the Liverpool guy in front of me (two seats to the right) did celebrate,  it must have been over in a nano-second because I did not notice it.  The Fulham fan sitting next to them said he wasn't bothered by them - but only after two stewards had led them away.  Shame on me. 
Well said.

cookieg

You have to ask yourself "Would that father take his kids to Old Trafford and sit amongst the ManUre fans?" Or Chelsea or Everton? Of course he wouldn't. The stewards would have had him and his kids out in no time for their own safety. So why is it acceptable that he can buy tickets and sit amongst Fulham fans? Would those who said he should have been left alone be happy if he was a QPR or Leeds fan celebrating?

I am sick and tired of our club being seen as a soft touch on and off the pitch with away fans thinking they can sit anywhere without having to deal with any consequences of their actions. What would have happened if a Fulham fan took offence to this bloke and punched him? There are rules and regulations in place for the safety of people going to a football match and this includes away fans in home areas.

Our stewards are hopeless anyway and will do all they can to avoid doing anything, other than block the walkways. But in these instances the away fans should be ejected, their tickets confiscated and the club should carry out an investigation as to how they got those tickets. If they were given to them by S/T holders then that person should be banned from getting another ticket, if bought by a Member then the booking history should be looked at and that person banned from being a member. I do wonder how many recent Members and S/T holders will be renewing at the end of this season? So hopefully this situation wont arise again.

Harsh maybe but thems the rules.


The Rational Fan

#108
Quote from: filham on March 20, 2019, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Neil D on March 19, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
The more posts I read on this thread the more I regret not asking the stewards to let them stay and the more I regret my comment about Liverpool supporters in general.  It just adds grist to the mill of unwarranted intolerance.  If they had been mouthy yobs, then obviously they should have been ejected.  If the Liverpool guy in front of me (two seats to the right) did celebrate,  it must have been over in a nano-second because I did not notice it.  The Fulham fan sitting next to them said he wasn't bothered by them - but only after two stewards had led them away.  Shame on me. 
Well said.

In today's world, you must treat all people equally, so you must treat "a harmless looking father with his two adorable kids that support Liverpool" the same as you would treat "three Liverpool supporters that like they came for a fight", otherwise its discrimination.

If you kick people out for supporting Liverpool, then you must kick all people out that support Liverpool, otherwise its discrimination. If you kick people out for have a few beers before the game, you must kick out all supporters that have had a few beers (including Fulham fans), otherwise its discrimination. If you kick people out because the look like trouble, then you need to have a legally valid reason to say they look like trouble that is no way seen as discrimination, otherwise its discrimination.

Much easily to say, anyone that is a Liverpool Fan has to leave; but if you want to work with the stewards to create a new set of guidelines good luck, but its much much much easier to kick out all opposition fans (even nice Norwich Fans).


Chesh

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 09:48:18 AM
Quote from: filham on March 20, 2019, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Neil D on March 19, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
The more posts I read on this thread the more I regret not asking the stewards to let them stay and the more I regret my comment about Liverpool supporters in general.  It just adds grist to the mill of unwarranted intolerance.  If they had been mouthy yobs, then obviously they should have been ejected.  If the Liverpool guy in front of me (two seats to the right) did celebrate,  it must have been over in a nano-second because I did not notice it.  The Fulham fan sitting next to them said he wasn't bothered by them - but only after two stewards had led them away.  Shame on me. 
Well said.

In today's world, you must treat all people equally, so you must treat "a harmless looking father with his two adorable kids that support Liverpool" the same as you would treat "three men that look interested in a fight that support Liverpool".


I'm sorry but this is where we differ - the latter imo should  get ejected by either home fans (as they would have been in the past, and still would be at most clubs) or the stewards, whereas a degree of tolerance could have been shown to the former, especially as he apologised and promised to keep his head down for the rest of the match.
Made in Hammersmith (1968)

The Rational Fan

#110
Quote from: Chesh on March 20, 2019, 10:09:07 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 09:48:18 AM
Quote from: filham on March 20, 2019, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Neil D on March 19, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
The more posts I read on this thread the more I regret not asking the stewards to let them stay and the more I regret my comment about Liverpool supporters in general.  It just adds grist to the mill of unwarranted intolerance.  If they had been mouthy yobs, then obviously they should have been ejected.  If the Liverpool guy in front of me (two seats to the right) did celebrate,  it must have been over in a nano-second because I did not notice it.  The Fulham fan sitting next to them said he wasn't bothered by them - but only after two stewards had led them away.  Shame on me. 
Well said.

In today's world, you must treat all people equally, so you must treat "a harmless looking father with his two adorable kids that support Liverpool" the same as you would treat "three men that look interested in a fight that support Liverpool".


I'm sorry but this is where we differ - the latter imo should  get ejected by either home fans (as they would have been in the past, and still would be at most clubs) or the stewards, whereas a degree of tolerance could have been shown to the former, especially as he apologised and promised to keep his head down for the rest of the match.

I agree with you more than you realise. I created the extreme example, because i wanted it to be clear the "the latter imo should  get ejected".

What I also wanted to show in the extreme example, that it is vitually impossible to create another rule "apart from kicking out all oppoistions fans" without being discrimatory. Hence, if you want "the latter imo should get ejected", then "you must eject the former too" or have stewards risk getting in trouble when they eject the wrong person.

In today's world, a steward can get in a lot of trouble for kicking someone out of a football game, if it can be proven he does it for the wrong reason that is considered discrimination. Stewards are allowed to eject opposition fans without any problem from the law, kicking people out for being drunk is a little harder but normally ok; but kicking people out cause they look like trouble will land stewards in trouble if they are in anyway biased.

Chesh

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: Chesh on March 20, 2019, 10:09:07 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 09:48:18 AM
Quote from: filham on March 20, 2019, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Neil D on March 19, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
The more posts I read on this thread the more I regret not asking the stewards to let them stay and the more I regret my comment about Liverpool supporters in general.  It just adds grist to the mill of unwarranted intolerance.  If they had been mouthy yobs, then obviously they should have been ejected.  If the Liverpool guy in front of me (two seats to the right) did celebrate,  it must have been over in a nano-second because I did not notice it.  The Fulham fan sitting next to them said he wasn't bothered by them - but only after two stewards had led them away.  Shame on me. 
Well said.

In today's world, you must treat all people equally, so you must treat "a harmless looking father with his two adorable kids that support Liverpool" the same as you would treat "three men that look interested in a fight that support Liverpool".


I'm sorry but this is where we differ - the latter imo should  get ejected by either home fans (as they would have been in the past, and still would be at most clubs) or the stewards, whereas a degree of tolerance could have been shown to the former, especially as he apologised and promised to keep his head down for the rest of the match.

I agree with you more than you realise. I created the extreme example, because i wanted it to be clear the "the latter imo should  get ejected". What I also wanted to show in the extreme example is even in an extreme example, it is vitually impossible to create another rule for kicking people out without being discrimatory or without have no rules at all. In today's world, a Steward can get in a lot of trouble for kicking someone out of a football game, it can be proven he does it for the wrong reason such as discrimination.
Shame there's no room for common sense in 'today's world' and modern football.
Made in Hammersmith (1968)


The Rational Fan

#112
Quote from: Chesh on March 20, 2019, 10:34:27 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 10:28:40 AM

I agree with you more than you realise. I created the extreme example, because i wanted it to be clear the "the latter imo should  get ejected". What I also wanted to show in the extreme example is even in an extreme example, it is vitually impossible to create another rule for kicking people out without being discrimatory or without have no rules at all. In today's world, a Steward can get in a lot of trouble for kicking someone out of a football game, it can be proven he does it for the wrong reason such as discrimination.
Shame there's no room for common sense in 'today's world' and modern football.

True, but we tried common sense, didn't work and that's why the new rules are in place.

At least, they are the same rules for all opposition fans and he would have known the rules.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: cookieg on March 20, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
You have to ask yourself "Would that father take his kids to Old Trafford and sit amongst the ManUre fans?" Or Chelsea or Everton? Of course he wouldn't. The stewards would have had him and his kids out in no time for their own safety. So why is it acceptable that he can buy tickets and sit amongst Fulham fans? Would those who said he should have been left alone be happy if he was a QPR or Leeds fan celebrating?

I am sick and tired of our club being seen as a soft touch on and off the pitch with away fans thinking they can sit anywhere without having to deal with any consequences of their actions. What would have happened if a Fulham fan took offence to this bloke and punched him? There are rules and regulations in place for the safety of people going to a football match and this includes away fans in home areas.

Our stewards are hopeless anyway and will do all they can to avoid doing anything, other than block the walkways. But in these instances the away fans should be ejected, their tickets confiscated and the club should carry out an investigation as to how they got those tickets. If they were given to them by S/T holders then that person should be banned from getting another ticket, if bought by a Member then the booking history should be looked at and that person banned from being a member. I do wonder how many recent Members and S/T holders will be renewing at the end of this season? So hopefully this situation wont arise again.

Harsh maybe but thems the rules.



A sensible post, we are a soft touch on and off the pitch, and our overall good nature is taken advantage of, there is no respect, if you act like a door mat, opponents will treat you like a door mat.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

The Rational Fan

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 20, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: cookieg on March 20, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
Harsh maybe but thems the rules.

A sensible post, we are a soft touch on and off the pitch, and our overall good nature is taken advantage of, there is no respect, if you act like a door mat, opponents will treat you like a door mat.

Well, it seems Norwich and Burton Albion won't be in the Championship next year, so being the Championships best behaved team should be easy for us to win.  049:gif


gang

Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 20, 2019, 08:26:40 AM
Quote from: gang on March 20, 2019, 08:17:22 AM
Why couldn't he just buy the tickets from Liverpool and if they sold their allocation just don't go? The seats he used were for Fulham supporters, how many of Fulham fans couldn't buy tickets because the game was sold out and therefore missed the game?
And how many Fulham supporters chose not to because they considered that the cost of tickets was roo high?


Yes I agree they are dear but they should only be available to Fulham supporters in these areas, I have no sympathy with them because they were caught out. Their tickets should have been bought from Liverpool.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 11:10:55 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 20, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: cookieg on March 20, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
Harsh maybe but thems the rules.

A sensible post, we are a soft touch on and off the pitch, and our overall good nature is taken advantage of, there is no respect, if you act like a door mat, opponents will treat you like a door mat.

Well, it seems Norwich and Burton Albion won't be in the Championship next year, so being the Championships best behaved team should be easy for us to win.  049:gif

Unfortunately, currently at the moment we may end up as top of the League of Gentlemen. Or even top of the League of Gentle men, or even top of the League of Genital men.
But the pen is not mightier than the sword, because you cannot write with a broken arm.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Mighty Maik

It seems like most of those posting were at the game. I was too. We had some Liverpool fans around us. Didn't bother me. This is why: The club did a minutes applause for Zara Barka-Harrison, who died recently at the age of 36. She was  a club employee who I had known for the entire fourteen years she'd worked at the club. She was also married to our kit man. She had a fourteen or fifteen month old baby. She was also a Liverpool fan (her second team). During the minutes applause the Liverpool fans began to sing "You'll Never Walk Alone". All of the people around me were deeply moved by the gesture. So was I. I thought then, as I do now, that Fulham is different. A family, a place where other football fans embrace our sensibilities because of the Cottage and the river and...the fans. I don;t recognise all of the divisive remarks I read on this board - not about our club not on that afternoon. We have had a terrible season. We've been terribly let down by people (or maybe a single person) who have not been good stewards of the Club. But the essential goodness and decency of everyone I know there is undiminished whether we win or lose. A guy with his two kids celebrating a Liverpool goal? In the scheme of things. I guess I would have thought of Zara and her now motherless baby and the respect the Liverpool fans paid to her, and let it slide.


HV71

Your post lives up to your name . Thank you for adding your insightful perspective and demonstrating such humanity.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 20, 2019, 11:10:55 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 20, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: cookieg on March 20, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
Harsh maybe but thems the rules.

A sensible post, we are a soft touch on and off the pitch, and our overall good nature is taken advantage of, there is no respect, if you act like a door mat, opponents will treat you like a door mat.

Well, it seems Norwich and Burton Albion won't be in the Championship next year, so being the Championships best behaved team should be easy for us to win.  049:gif

But there is no cigar, or even a coconut let alone a goldfish to acknowledge this achievement.
Therefore, unfortunately I would imagine it will pass unnoticed by the footballing world. 
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.