David Duckenfield to stand trial again for Hillsborough disaster

[Burt]

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield is to face a retrial over the deaths of 95 football fans.

In April, a jury failed to reach a verdict on the former chief superintendent, who had denied gross negligence manslaughter.

Lawyers acting for Mr Duckenfield, 74, of Ferndown, Dorset, opposed an application for a retrial over the 1989 stadium disaster.

The trial is due to start on 7 October at Preston Crown Court.

John Traynor - the brother of Christopher and Kevin Traynor who both died in the tragedy - said he was "delighted" at the ruling.

"It's what we've been waiting for. Now we can plan our lives again now we know it's the 7 October."

Ninety-six Liverpool fans died in the crush on the Leppings Lane terrace of Sheffield Wednesday's stadium at the FA Cup semi-final on 15 April. The 96th victim, Tony Bland, died more than a year and a day after the disaster, and cannot be included in the prosecution.

About 10 family members were in court as Judge Sir Peter Openshaw made the ruling, which followed a hearing on Monday.

In May, the former Sheffield Wednesday club secretary Graham Mackrell was fined £6,500 for a health and safety offence. He was found guilty of not providing enough turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-48756722

[The Old Count]

A triumph for self pity city. Not so good for those who favour personal responsibility.

[MikeTheCubed]

Here is a video of poor Liverpool supporters climbing up Wembley's tower in order to escape from a crush:
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/ticketless-teenage-football-fan-desperate-to-see-match-news-footage/1B26058_0009

086.gif

[BigbadBillyMcKinley]

I know someone who was there on the day. He said for so many years he'd blocked out the emotional side of things. When this first came about and the guy was charged, my mate said it was the first time he'd cried in about 20 years. He cried with relief because justice needed to be done.

It's nothing about being the city of self pity and all about innocent people being killed through sheer negligence. Imagine it had been Fulham supporters?!

[FFC1987]

Let's keep it respectful guys. People died.

[Statto]

Something being very tragic doesn't make it someone's fault, or certainly not the fault of the establishment. No one wants to blame Liverpool supporters, bad luck or the general attitude people of that era had to health and safety. Just like no one wants to blame an unfortunate fridge malfunction for Grenfell. So they'll try for years to blame the police, fire service, wealthy etc... until eventually some poor bloke in his 70s has to spend his final years in anguish and shame so they can say "justice" has been done. Disgraceful reflection of our society, really.     

[Southcoastffc]

IMO it was a tragedy with culpability on many shoulders.  But it was 30 years ago, and I can't help but feel that it was time long before now to draw a line under it.  I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same if I had friends or relatives who'd suffered in the event.  No good will come of prolonging investigation or the judicial process.  I'm a bit cynical about claims of 'closure' or 'justice' at this stage.

[BigbadBillyMcKinley]

Something being very tragic doesn't make it someone's fault, or certainly not the fault of the establishment. No one wants to blame Liverpool supporters, bad luck or the general attitude people of that era had to health and safety. Just like no one wants to blame an unfortunate fridge malfunction for Grenfell. So they'll try for years to blame the police, fire service, wealthy etc... until eventually some poor bloke in his 70s has to spend his final years in anguish and shame so they can say "justice" has been done. Disgraceful reflection of our society, really.     

Mate, with all due respect, I think you need to read up on both those incidents. Both could have been prevented had the "establishment" not cut corners; or the Tory government that was in charge for both, not cut services to line their own pocket.

If you want something to do, go off and do some research.

[Statto]

Something being very tragic doesn't make it someone's fault, or certainly not the fault of the establishment. No one wants to blame Liverpool supporters, bad luck or the general attitude people of that era had to health and safety. Just like no one wants to blame an unfortunate fridge malfunction for Grenfell. So they'll try for years to blame the police, fire service, wealthy etc... until eventually some poor bloke in his 70s has to spend his final years in anguish and shame so they can say "justice" has been done. Disgraceful reflection of our society, really.     

Mate, with all due respect, I think you need to read up on both those incidents. Both could have been prevented had the "establishment" not cut corners; or the Tory government that was in charge for both, not cut services to line their own pocket.

If you want something to do, go off and do some research.

Lol, and there we have the obligatory reference to "the Tories".

Can I assume you also blame Labour for the 7/7 bombings, then?

I'll go away do some reading as you suggest. Is there a particular title you'd recommend? Something along the lines of "How to be a lefty and blame other people for your mistakes and misfortune" perhaps

[Oakeshott]

"IMO it was a tragedy with culpability on many shoulders.  But it was 30 years ago, and I can't help but feel that it was time long before now to draw a line under it.  I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same if I had friends or relatives who'd suffered in the event.  No good will come of prolonging investigation or the judicial process.  I'm a bit cynical about claims of 'closure' or 'justice' at this stage."

Spot on.

[clanky]

A very emotive subject but feel its difficult to judge someone for an incident 30 years ago based on current practices and procedures. Policing sporting events was not as sophisticated as it is today, no real training and poorer technology to help.

Since that tragic event when many people died so many changes and improvements have been made to ground safety and sporting events in general. 

in my view , he made errors but not though malice or ill will. This is not a simple black and white scenario. Many factors were involved.

We are all quick to judge but as can be seen in modern major incidents e.g. Grenfell and London Bridge where the emergency services are still criticised when they are trying their best in challenging situations

Hindsight is a wonderful science and if you haven't been in that situation then I feel there's no appreciation of the reality of it.

Will prosecuting an elderly 70 year old man really  ensure justice is done .

I am not convinced

[mrmicawbers]

If they really want to blame someone blame whoever decided that was a safe stadium to play Semi Finals in.Anyway in my opinion lots of things contributed to the final outcome.The perfect storm,including fans turning up late.

[toshes mate]

Whenever there is tragedy involving large numbers of innocent people there are bound to be investigations.  The investigators will attempt to piece together evidence and facts as best they can to determine whether or not there are lessons to be learned, things to be changed, regulations to be tightened, people to be subjected to legal process and so on.  Identifying causes of tragedy will often suggest mistakes or oversights made by individuals.   Sometimes it takes decades for something close to the truth to trickle out, and often we can observe during this period of discovery how the system obfuscates in order to protect itself from persecution or prosecution.  In the meantime the bereaved have a sense of pain heightened by those delays and the covering ups.  Their feelings of injustice are seemingly not enough for people to stand up and admit to fault, not for revenge to take place but for a finality to occur and a resolution for change made.

If you have ever attended case management hearings for legal process you will know how hard lawyers on both sides try to prevent the other side knowing certain things when the stakes are high.   In the case of an investigation into a big disaster with consequences way beyond the observed tragedy we would be stupid not to see the same thing possibly or even probably happening. 

I am not sure why Grenfell should be mentioned on a thread about Hillsborough because the only similarity between them is that they should not have happened.  We can only stop these situations from not happening again by taking them very seriously indeed and duly punishing any and all those found to be incompetent, negligent or totally disregarding of the duty of care and responsibility they have in their professional life.  How they should be punished is another matter entirely but trial by peers is often used in such cases.

I know Hillsborough is a long time ago but for some the loss of a loved one will be for the rest of their life.   Closure for those who suffered loss should be the least we can do.

[Jimpav]

Just like no one wants to blame an unfortunate fridge malfunction for Grenfell. So they'll try for years to blame the police, fire service, wealthy etc...

You are talking nonsense, please stop out out of respect if anything else.

[SG]

We shouldn't forget that one of the reasons this has gone on for so long is that the 'Establishment' sought to cover events up or in the case of S Yorkshire police alter or delete notes from their log books, which should have formed an accurate contemporaneous account of events on the day but in the end did nothing of the sort. Somebody instructed them to do this and one presumes the motive behind this was to absolve police officers of any blame.
Once things like that emerge into the public domain it is inevitable that those who suffered loss would pursue 'justice' in whatever form that takes in their eyes. We should never forget that 96 people went to watch a game of football and didn't come home.

[Burt]

It is difficult to comprehend this without having first-hand experience of the events themselves.

I remember the broadcast footage on the day, and the close-up pictures of people being crushed from the red-tops the following day, and even after this much time it still leaves an impression.

One of my oldest friends is a scouse, he wasn't at Hillsborough, but knows a family who lost a loved one, and it has defined their life ever since, not just in terms of the loss of life, but also because when you lose someone close in these circumstances you want answers, and that's something that has not exactly been forthcoming.

[Statto]

Just like no one wants to blame an unfortunate fridge malfunction for Grenfell. So they'll try for years to blame the police, fire service, wealthy etc...

You are talking nonsense, please stop out out of respect if anything else.

No. If you've some new information not yet made public then by all means tell us, and I'm happy to listen/debate it. In the meantime I will say what I want about Hillsborough and I may mention Grenfell, which has the parallels to Hillsborough that I mentioned, and as a more recent and local event, is at least as relevant to this forum. If people want to make it political like another poster has done above, that's for the mods to deal with. If they respond by banning all threads about Hillsborough (or Grenfell) that probably wouldn't be such a bad idea. But if I'm forced to read the same old comments about "justice" and witchhunts then I will reply.

[clanky]

I , initially mentioned Grenfell , only as an example of how serious incidents are scrutinised and/or judged by people with no knowledge of such operational matters yet come to judge people who spend their career working in that role. Therefore it is very relevant.

One comment over Grenfell has been the Fire brigade's decision not to evacuate the building which may or may not have been the correct decision at the time based on the facts known then.  A fast running incident , unprecedented event, limited information, mixed messages, poor communications etc.

Easy to judge post event with hindsight !

End of rant, off to the pub !



I think the point has been missed in a previous comment

These are very complex cases and there's a real danger of judging historic incidents by modern standards

[Westlondonffc]

Why have a re-trial? The evdience will be exactly the same, they are just hoping a different jury interprets it all differently. Hardly justice

[RaySmith]

I too am unsure as to the validity, or ethics, behind retrying this 74 years old man. There seems to be an, understandable , search, to find and punish an individual responsible, when a lot of errors by a lot of responsible people were surely made on the day, but the overall responsibility must be laid at the way that football fans were treated then, which was a disaster waiting to happen - and there have been other  similar disasters in British footballing history, such as Ibrox and the Bradford fire.
But Hillsborough did lead to a lot of changes, such as all seater stadiums.

Similarly, since someone has introduced it into the discussion, Grenfell, when the blame is surely not to be laid on the  possible faults of the Fire Brigade commanders on the day, but on the wider responsibility of cost cutting in the building's construction, which meant that cheap, non  fire- resistant materials were used in the  construction of these flats for working-class people.

But, as Burt says, I suppose it's not for me to speak on behalf of those who lost people at Hillsborough, a disaster which was swept under the carpet for so long, with the blame scurrilously laid at the feet of the fans themselves for years, just as Grenfell now seems to  be being swept under the carpet, with nothing done to find why people were housed in such a death trap, and who or what was responsible.