No Defenders This Window: Official Alarm Bells Thread

[jayffc]

The same old excuse keeps coming up. It's out of our hands. We need to wait on other clubs etc..

Cav and Knockaert would get into any team in the Championship. We managed to sign them. Why cant we get defenders?

Because it was very evident their teams didn't want them and were willing to let them go. So they were easier transactions.

I'd suggest that is one of the big 'secrets' to successful transfers. When I want to buy something, anything from a house to a chocolate bar, I generally check first that the current owner is open to selling it. 

Once you've bought your chocolate, you might want to eat it. You might be bloody starving and there might not be a shop for miles. I could offer you 2 quid and you could tell me to do one. I could come back and offer you a fiver and you could tell me, actually, you really want the chocolate goodness and so it's not worth it... knowing that I'm also really hungry at this point and Im looking like I might go even higher. you hold that bar for now and have a quick google....there's a decent chippy down the road, that might do the trick.

Eventually, bloody Marvin' at this point, I might come back and offer you a tenner and you think - f*** it, I'll take the cash and get a take in.

[Statto]

So, is the suggestion here that we aren't checking to see if clubs are willing to sell players when bidding?

Clubs do, of course, also, begrudgingly sell players that they'd like to keep, all the time. If the price is right, if the player pushes for a move, if they are able to get in a replacement or upgrade (an incredibly important factor that one). All of these things create big delays in transfers that, frequently, drag on to the end of a window.


If we focus only on transfers where the selling club is happy for the player to leave and has no need for them, just to make transfers easy, we're risking getting players deemed not up to par. Whilst sometimes you can find gems in there (see hopefully Cav and Knockhaert) you're also naturally going to get a lot of duds too.

The vast majority of our signings in recent years have been players that weren't starting for their current club (eg Kalas, Mitrovic, Targett, Cavaleiro, Knockaert), weren't in the current club's future plans (Johansen, McDonald) or failing that, their current club was desparate to sell because they were skint (eg Cairney) or had even already agreed a sale with another club (eg Bryan)

And indeed, the few players we've had to make big offers to prise from their current clubs (Rui Fonte, Anguissa...) have generally been our worst transfers.

[Southcoastffc]

So we haven't got a single defender in this entire window when it is maybe the ONLY problem that has needed to be addressed this window, let alone decade. Now it is too late on for one to gel by the first match.

Someone pinch me. Are the Khan's that daft? I am officially worried and it looks like we might not get the CB and RB at a minimum that we need.

Is this possible?

The entire window is still open, notwithstanding that the season begins is a few days.

[jayffc]

So, is the suggestion here that we aren't checking to see if clubs are willing to sell players when bidding?

Clubs do, of course, also, begrudgingly sell players that they'd like to keep, all the time. If the price is right, if the player pushes for a move, if they are able to get in a replacement or upgrade (an incredibly important factor that one). All of these things create big delays in transfers that, frequently, drag on to the end of a window.


If we focus only on transfers where the selling club is happy for the player to leave and has no need for them, just to make transfers easy, we're risking getting players deemed not up to par. Whilst sometimes you can find gems in there (see hopefully Cav and Knockhaert) you're also naturally going to get a lot of duds too.

The vast majority of our signings in recent years have been players that weren't starting for their current club (eg Kalas, Mitrovic, Targett, Cavaleiro, Knockaert), weren't in the current club's future plans (Johansen, McDonald) or failing that, their current club was desparate to sell because they were skint (eg Cairney) or had even already agreed a sale with another club (eg Bryan)

And indeed, the few players we've had to make big offers to prise from their current clubs (Rui Fonte, Anguissa...) have generally been our worst transfers.

Yep but that doesn't mean it's the only way we work.
Were all of the players you mention our first choice targets? Did we explore and negotiate with other players first that didn't work out? Do we know if these transfers were sorted out after failing at our first or second targets? who knows?

Yes there are plenty of instances where we've picked up good players deemed surplus to requirement elsewhere, I'm not disputing that, if it works out well then your quids in which is great. All I was saying is not all your transfers can come in that way, nor should they. Pretty much every club top to bottom has lots of "bad transfers" on their record when spending out, it's just ours was most recent, obvious and most raw.

Also, a couple of years at one club is one small sample for how transfer business is done successfully. If we look at the wider spectrum of the history of football transfers across clubs... Are there quite clearly examples that show the value of buying players who are still wanted by their current club, yes. Are there examples where that hasn't worked out, also yes. Are there examples where it's been better for people to buy ones who have failed elsewhere, of course. Are there examples where those types of purchases have flopped, yes, plenty.

Point being, there's value and failures in both approaches, and so both ways should (and no doubt are) being explored. It is not as simple as doing things one way. Ever. Some transfer can be done quickly and easily, we've made 2 brilliant ones of those already on paper. Some take longer, we'll find out what they are later this week.

I'm as eager for some new additions as the next guy, but I do feel we should have enough talent to beat Barnsley and Blackburn (if not this team really needs to look at themselves!)
So I'm just understanding that It's a more complex business than I'd like, without getting caught up in a furore of negative assumptions of what's going on behind the scenes.

We've got out of this league with Tony in charge of recruitment before so It's not unreasonable to believe it's possible again. The large bulk of that team is still here and with some seemingly quality additions (and some losses i.e Fred, Targett). It still needs work so we'll see what's done. Till then I think it might be best just to avoid these convos!

[Lyle from Hangeland]

If Fulham earns automatic promotion all you naysayers should have to run 24 laps around the Cottage naked.

I'll Make it 240 with this current squad. What's your forefeit?

Name any street in London (the more public the better). Pick a date. Name a time. I'll fly in and take a nice stroll as penitence. Encourage all of your women folk to come out to watch, because they will be entertained.  You're 076.gif

[Statto]

Yep but that doesn't mean it's the only way we work.
Were all of the players you mention our first choice targets? Did we explore and negotiate with other players first that didn't work out? Do we know if these transfers were sorted out after failing at our first or second targets? who knows?

Yes there are plenty of instances where we've picked up good players deemed surplus to requirement elsewhere, I'm not disputing that, if it works out well then your quids in which is great. All I was saying is not all your transfers can come in that way, nor should they. Pretty much every club top to bottom has lots of "bad transfers" on their record when spending out, it's just ours was most recent, obvious and most raw.

Also, a couple of years at one club is one small sample for how transfer business is done successfully. If we look at the wider spectrum of the history of football transfers across clubs... Are there quite clearly examples that show the value of buying players who are still wanted by their current club, yes. Are there examples where that hasn't worked out, also yes. Are there examples where it's been better for people to buy ones who have failed elsewhere, of course. Are there examples where those types of purchases have flopped, yes, plenty.

Point being, there's value and failures in both approaches, and so both ways should (and no doubt are) being explored. It is not as simple as doing things one way. Ever. Some transfer can be done quickly and easily, we've made 2 brilliant ones of those already on paper. Some take longer, we'll find out what they are later this week.

I'm as eager for some new additions as the next guy, but I do feel we should have enough talent to beat Barnsley and Blackburn (if not this team really needs to look at themselves!)
So I'm just understanding that It's a more complex business than I'd like, without getting caught up in a furore of negative assumptions of what's going on behind the scenes.

We've got out of this league with Tony in charge of recruitment before so It's not unreasonable to believe it's possible again. The large bulk of that team is still here and with some seemingly quality additions (and some losses i.e Fred, Targett). It still needs work so we'll see what's done. Till then I think it might be best just to avoid these convos!

Sorry but none of that seems to justify pursuing these long, drawn-out negotiations with clubs that don't want to sell (if indeed that is the reason for our trasnfer busines taking so long).

You don't seem to dispute my point that the overwhelming majority of our signings are from clubs that wanted to sell, and our deals with clubs that didn't want to sell have generally delivered less success and less value for money.

And the context here is, we've started every single season under TK badly, and it's almost universally accepted among fans, neutral pundits and our managers that a major reason for this has been our tendency to throw lots of players together at the last-minute.

So FFS the lesson seems very simple to me.

[MikeW]

So, is the suggestion here that we aren't checking to see if clubs are willing to sell players when bidding?

Clubs do, of course, also, begrudgingly sell players that they'd like to keep, all the time. If the price is right, if the player pushes for a move, if they are able to get in a replacement or upgrade (an incredibly important factor that one). All of these things create big delays in transfers that, frequently, drag on to the end of a window.


If we focus only on transfers where the selling club is happy for the player to leave and has no need for them, just to make transfers easy, we're risking getting players deemed not up to par. Whilst sometimes you can find gems in there (see hopefully Cav and Knockhaert) you're also naturally going to get a lot of duds too.

You would hope a decent coaching and scouting staff would avoid the duds.  By the way we are going, everyone is a dud.

[WindyCity]

If Fulham earns automatic promotion all you naysayers should have to run 24 laps around the Cottage naked.

Gladly......

[rusty shackleford]

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I feel that too many people over estimate Fulhams ability to overcome the likes of Barnsley and Blackburn to name but two, and at the same time underestimate the ability of the opponents we are playing. It may surprise some, but real football is not played or won on paper or on a computer. It can be lost in the dressing room, in the tunnel or in the minds of players.and on the training ground, as well of course as on the field of play.
Games are won and lost at set pieces, and players have to win their own battles. Good habits and big hearts.
Don't get me wrong, we could win both games, and I pray we do, we could lose both, we could draw both, nothing is certain. Nevertheless, I cannot believe we will not bring in three or four players to strengthen the squad in midfield and especially in defence. But if we are serious about promotion we need some Cavalry. Even with the Cavalry it will still be a challenge. Without them it will be very difficult as each match will be different, and they will all be little Cup Finals, with a banana skin round every corner, injury's are bound to play a part, and with our current squad we lack depth in sone positions more than others. With a week left the sands of time are running out, however, we have to be patient and hope any irons in the fire bear fruit. Because in that absence of any serious improvement in the squad, it could be a long hard season, then again it's a funny old game.

[Nero]

with this window its different with having to have the 7 home grown players in the match day  squad, it means you just cant sign anyone you have to think about if x and y get injured would player z be able to play without making the team weaker

[jayffc]

I feel that too many people over estimate Fulhams ability to overcome the likes of Barnsley and Blackburn to name but two, and at the same time underestimate the ability of the opponents we are playing. It may surprise some, but real football is not played or won on paper or on a computer. It can be lost in the dressing room, in the tunnel or in the minds of players.and on the training ground, as well of course as on the field of play.
Games are won and lost at set pieces, and players have to win their own battles. Good habits and big hearts.
Don't get me wrong, we could win both games, and I pray we do, we could lose both, we could draw both, nothing is certain. Nevertheless, I cannot believe we will not bring in three or four players to strengthen the squad in midfield and especially in defence. But if we are serious about promotion we need some Cavalry. Even with the Cavalry it will still be a challenge. Without them it will be very difficult as each match will be different, and they will all be little Cup Finals, with a banana skin round every corner, injury's are bound to play a part, and with our current squad we lack depth in sone positions more than others. With a week left the sands of time are running out, however, we have to be patient and hope any irons in the fire bear fruit. Because in that absence of any serious improvement in the squad, it could be a long hard season, then again it's a funny old game.

I don't think anyone is saying we can't be beaten by the first 2 teams up? But the best way of predicting the outcome of a game is usually looking at which team has the higher quality players... on paper. No one's saying that doesn't mean there can be an upset. The very point of saying, we should beat them "on paper" is an acknowledgement that it might not work out that way, and that there are other factors involved, like morale and tactics etc that could mean we lose.

So when saying it, in specific reference to transfer business needing to be done asap. It's saying, well in theory, losing to these teams wouldn't necessarily be because we didn't have enough talent in the team. Because player for player, ours are generally valued as 'better' for various reasons.

The people saying it aren't saying we shouldn't reinforce the squad, just that in this instance the first games are against teams that this current squad ' should' beat. And so it's not so much of an issue as it might have been to rush transfers through to be ready in time for these two... if waiting means we potentially stand more choice of getting our first choice options. (see the tale of when we could have signed Okaka but held out and got Mitro instead) of course it could go the other way too Who knows, literally no one so I shan't expel to much energy stressing about it... Thankfully it's nearly over now and we can all shut up about what might and might not happen haha!

[MikeW]

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

Regrettably, I have to agree with you.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I feel that too many people over estimate Fulhams ability to overcome the likes of Barnsley and Blackburn to name but two, and at the same time underestimate the ability of the opponents we are playing. It may surprise some, but real football is not played or won on paper or on a computer. It can be lost in the dressing room, in the tunnel or in the minds of players.and on the training ground, as well of course as on the field of play.
Games are won and lost at set pieces, and players have to win their own battles. Good habits and big hearts.
Don't get me wrong, we could win both games, and I pray we do, we could lose both, we could draw both, nothing is certain. Nevertheless, I cannot believe we will not bring in three or four players to strengthen the squad in midfield and especially in defence. But if we are serious about promotion we need some Cavalry. Even with the Cavalry it will still be a challenge. Without them it will be very difficult as each match will be different, and they will all be little Cup Finals, with a banana skin round every corner, injury's are bound to play a part, and with our current squad we lack depth in sone positions more than others. With a week left the sands of time are running out, however, we have to be patient and hope any irons in the fire bear fruit. Because in that absence of any serious improvement in the squad, it could be a long hard season, then again it's a funny old game.

I don't think anyone is saying we can't be beaten by the first 2 teams up? But the best way of predicting the outcome of a game is usually looking at which team has the higher quality players... on paper. No one's saying that doesn't mean there can be an upset. The very point of saying, we should beat them "on paper" is an acknowledgement that it might not work out that way, and that there are other factors involved, like morale and tactics etc that could mean we lose.

So when saying it, in specific reference to transfer business needing to be done asap. It's saying, well in theory, losing to these teams wouldn't necessarily be because we didn't have enough talent in the team. Because player for player, ours are generally valued as 'better' for various reasons.

The people saying it aren't saying we shouldn't reinforce the squad, just that in this instance the first games are against teams that this current squad ' should' beat. And so it's not so much of an issue as it might have been to rush transfers through to be ready in time for these two... if waiting means we potentially stand more choice of getting our first choice options. (see the tale of when we could have signed Okaka but held out and got Mitro instead) of course it could go the other way too Who knows, literally no one so I shan't expel to much energy stressing about it... Thankfully it's nearly over now and we can all shut up about what might and might not happen haha!

If the current squad stays the same. I can see this debate stretching deep into the season, until it's realised that promotion is out of the question.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

Regrettably, I have to agree with you.

I concur and I have gone for a lie down as the naivety of so many is weighing me down.

[David I]

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

Regrettably, I have to agree with you.

I concur and I have gone for a lie down as the naivety of so many is weighing me down.

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

Heart and favouritism can blur reality. Take a step back and view the bigger picture..... Same old same old issues. Nothing will change. Fulham will always be a friendly family club to go watch a match but never going to be a permanent top 8 PL club.
Love the wins and ride the ups and downs.....

[Carborundum]

I feel that too many people over estimate Fulhams ability to overcome the likes of Barnsley and Blackburn to name but two, and at the same time underestimate the ability of the opponents we are playing. It may surprise some, but real football is not played or won on paper or on a computer. It can be lost in the dressing room, in the tunnel or in the minds of players.and on the training ground, as well of course as on the field of play.
Games are won and lost at set pieces, and players have to win their own battles. Good habits and big hearts.
Don't get me wrong, we could win both games, and I pray we do, we could lose both, we could draw both, nothing is certain. Nevertheless, I cannot believe we will not bring in three or four players to strengthen the squad in midfield and especially in defence. But if we are serious about promotion we need some Cavalry. Even with the Cavalry it will still be a challenge. Without them it will be very difficult as each match will be different, and they will all be little Cup Finals, with a banana skin round every corner, injury's are bound to play a part, and with our current squad we lack depth in sone positions more than others. With a week left the sands of time are running out, however, we have to be patient and hope any irons in the fire bear fruit. Because in that absence of any serious improvement in the squad, it could be a long hard season, then again it's a funny old game.

Very wise assessment.  Winning personal battles particularly important.  There are defenders that get a long way towards winning them before a ball is kicked.  There are other defenders that cause hope to spring forth in even the most out-of-form striker.  I know which we have.  Many of the best teams in history had a defender who struck fear in the heart, to the point of considered a highly combustible nut job.....by their own team mates.  Every team should have one in my book.

[Whitesideup]

Im amazed at how many people (fulham fans, other fans, pundits, bookies etc) have us as one of the favourites to win the league.

Regrettably, I have to agree with you.

I concur and I have gone for a lie down as the naivety of so many is weighing me down.

Other supporters may have equal reservations about their own teams. There will I am sure, be many Leeds supporters having a quiet lay-down with Woolly while they ponder the logic of them being 13-8 favourites.