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This team

Started by Spirit of 2000, September 14, 2019, 04:00:40 PM

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colinwhite

With sess,reid read,knockhart,cavalero all new to the starting line up ,we are almost there and these things take time. a win on saturday and it would have been a decent start. Of course its results that count but we have a hell of alot of points to play for and we will get it right.The worst thing that could happen would be a change of managership. A poor start? Too slow in our build up play which is costing us goals?  Did you see the look on Billics face for most of the game until a GK error cost us 2 points? I rest my case.

Spirit of 2000

>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ... WBA Saturday a home draw. We're 11th after a reasonably easy run of games. We're now in a position where we need to go away and beat Sheff Wed next weekend just to ensure we don't drop out of the top half. Yes it is relatively early - but I don't fancy chasing down an 8, 9, 10 or more gap quickly established between us and the automatic places. Playoffs are a lottery in many respects and I'm sure the owners have a logic that one of the top 2 sides in terms of wage bill and talent should be looking at going up without the playoffs. If we're not top 6 at Xmas I'd fully expect a change.

FFC1987

Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ... WBA Saturday a home draw. We're 11th after a reasonably easy run of games. We're now in a position where we need to go away and beat Sheff Wed next weekend just to ensure we don't drop out of the top half. Yes it is relatively early - but I don't fancy chasing down an 8, 9, 10 or more gap quickly established between us and the automatic places. Playoffs are a lottery in many respects and I'm sure the owners have a logic that one of the top 2 sides in terms of wage bill and talent should be looking at going up without the playoffs. If we're not top 6 at Xmas I'd fully expect a change.

This. Whats really important to note here is, we bloody well shouldn't be either with this squad!


Spirit of 2000

Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 11:37:45 AM
With sess,reid read,knockhart,cavalero all new to the starting line up ,we are almost there and these things take time. a win on saturday and it would have been a decent start. Of course its results that count but we have a hell of alot of points to play for and we will get it right.The worst thing that could happen would be a change of managership. A poor start? Too slow in our build up play which is costing us goals?  Did you see the look on Billics face for most of the game until a GK error cost us 2 points? I rest my case.

Bilic did a number big time on Parker tactically in the 2nd half with subs - something Parker didn't counter. We've played genuinely really well for 90 mins once this season - against what was a very poor Millwall on the night. Our other two wins have come against an ordinary Blackburn where we were poor 1st half and decent 2nd half and against a Huddersfield side in crisis where we nicked thanks to a worldy by Cavaleiro - we're not creating anything like the number of chances our possession should do. As has already been said - we've opened with a relatively easy set of fixtures and sit in mid table and are on a run of 3 league matches (plus a cup game) without a win - not scoring more than 1 goal in any of those matches - and with reportedly the best front 3 in the league. Have Mitro, Knockaert and Cav been missing sitters? Maybe they've missed reasonable chances ... but not absolute "sitters" per se. I genuinely think our painfully slow tempo is at least partially to blame.

Statto

Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...

West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.

Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"

Reckon Forest will also finish top 8

So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season

FFC1987

Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...

West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.

Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"

Reckon Forest will also finish top 8

So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season

We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.


The Rational Fan

#26
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...

West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.

Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"

Reckon Forest will also finish top 8

So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season

The nine favourite teams to win the championship according to the bookies are Leeds, Fulham, West Brom, Swansea, Nottingham Forest, Bristol City, Brentford, Preston and Cardiff. We have the tenth favorites next and then won't play another top ten team for another ten games.

Next Nine Games Sequence: Wednesday 10; Wigan 22; Reading 20;  Charlton 16; Stoke 21; Luton 17; Middlesbrough 14; Hull 19 and Birmingham 12.

Statto

Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...

West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.

Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"

Reckon Forest will also finish top 8

So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season

We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.

Ok, well bearing in mind even a top two team will only win about 26 games, what are the 20 fixtures we need not win in your opinion?

FFC1987

Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<

Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...

West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.

Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"

Reckon Forest will also finish top 8

So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season

We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.

Ok, well bearing in mind even a top two team will only win about 26 games, what are the 20 fixtures we need not win in your opinion?

I think having dropped points, we'll now need to pick up more points against top 6 oppo than whats usually needed.


WindyCity

Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 09:22:18 AM
>>Spot On. Fulham Fans need to stop setting insane expectations, given our adequate but limited budget. The season is going reasonably well<<

Really??? We have the biggest wage bill and one of the best 2 squads in the division.... expectation for Parker to deliver promotion with no excuses is certainly not "unrealistic "

Agreed.

WindyCity

Well boys, what I see in this discussion is a lot of "excuse making", to be honest.  Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth.  The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown.  These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.

I think there comes a point where you/we, as fans, have to just face up to the fact that this team has not played very well to start this season.  Right now, all the "ifs" "ands" and "buts" in the world doesn't show this side top 2.  We all follow this club and want to see them succeed, but the reality is that they have not played very well indeed.  Thankfully, it is still very early and a lot of football ahead, so there is hope this team can correct and get right.  Fingers crossed.

From a Fawlty Towers episode, sums up my feeling so far this season........"I'm not satisfied!"

COYW!

:)

colinwhite

The team has not played well? I give up!!


Whitesideup

Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 07:11:45 PM
The team has not played well? I give up!!

+1

We were two refereeing decisions away from 4 extra points  - the wrestling of Mitrovic to the floor against Cardiff, and the clear penalty against West Brom. (yes, I know we would have to convert them, and that isn't guaranteed.)

Or alternatively .. just a bit more luck with our finishing.

Football is often about moments, and they have gone against us so far. Had we had 4 points more, which personally I felt our play has deserved, then there would have been far less criticism.

Twig

I don't go to away games but attend every home game so i've seen a fair bit of this squad first hand now.  My view thus far;
-The team has played some nice football and played it pretty well. We have dominated most of our opponents for the majority of our games,
-We have made some silly mistakes that have cost points. As these are ironed out things will improve,
-Our build up play is sometimes, but not always, slow. As the team gels I would Expect more frequent quick, incisive attacks. That too will improve results,
-Our dead ball efforts have been disappointing. Work in progress.
-Parker has occasionally been outwitted tactically. With experience that too should improve results,
-To those who call our style boring; get over it. It is technical, ambitious and well suited as a basis of Prem level football if/when we get there.

Overall I would give us a B+ To date and I think we have can move that to a straight A.

Statto

Quote from: WindyCity on September 17, 2019, 04:41:03 PM
Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth.  The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown.  These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.

Think what you want - I note you've made the same argument before now - but anyone who knows anything about football knows that's not how it works. For a fantastic illustration of what happens when you throw too many new players into the team too quickly, see Fulham last season. You're right to say it's "excuse making" but wrong to imply that affects the veracity or significance of the point. Sometimes in life there are excuses for things.


The Rational Fan

#35
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.

Spirit of 2000

Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.

A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.

Statto

#37
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.

A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.
I could just as easily say, a shot on target when you have waited (as we often do) to pick the perfect spot and are composed and balanced, is much better than a shot you've struck whilst sprinting and have only a momentary glimpse of the goal.

All in all, IMO any argument that our shots on target are of a lower quality than the opposition's is based on questionable reasoning and supported by little or no evidence.

Also, had we faced a high quality of shots on target, I don't think there would be so many posts criticising Bettinelli for not saving them.


Spirit of 2000

#38
Quote from: Statto on September 18, 2019, 09:03:13 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.

A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.
I could just as easily say, a shot on target when you have waited (as we often do) to pick the perfect spot and are composed and balanced, is much better than a shot you've struck whilst sprinting and have only a momentary glimpse of the goal.

All in all, IMO any argument that our shots on target are of a lower quality than the opposition's is based on questionable reasoning and supported by little or no evidence.

Also, had we faced a high quality of shots on target, I don't think there would be so many posts criticising Bettinelli for not saving them.

Sorry – don't hold to that at all. A striker works more on instinct & should jump on a moment of opportunity whereas defenders rely more on shape and organisation. Why don't we score tap ins, and don't say as the opposition park the bus as Liverpool & City score their fair share of close range finishes once they open the opposition up. The majority of our goals seem to be spectacular strikes outside or at lest on the edge of the area. This IMO is a total bi-product of our over-ponderous and slow build up play. Parker needs to find a way to get us zipping the ball  more quickly in the opposition half – more running off the ball needed – more players gambling by making runs into the opposition area. Those things for me are certainly not happening enough at present. We're going into a very winnable set of games & I suspect both the board and fans will have expectations that we go into November in the top 6 and not miles off the top 2 places in terms of points. I sat fairly quietly observing during the WBA game but many around me were growing increasingly frustrated at our pedestrian style of play and voices raised in discontent & the occasion boo was plainly heard. As much as some want to vindicate this (in my opinion) overly cautious, slow, deliberate style of play it will soon lose the faith of many of our supporters if wins & goals aren't forthcoming & I suspect the board don't care how we play – as long as results are in evidence. Add to this I think Parkers stubbornness in using substitutes until late in the day and failing to address tactical ploys of opposition managers as was certainly the case with Bilic on Saturday when it was crying for a Stef Jo to come on (For a Reid, Cav of Knockaert) to get amongst their midfield when they took control for the last 25 mins – I think there's only so long that Scott Parker can use the dominance / possession card & people claim we're unlucky. We have the best front 3 in the division – are they all missing a string of sitters? No – Mitro in fact had 5 in 5 before Saturday, it's a fact they're not being put into positions in space that are clear goalscoring opportunities. We've not really put anyone to the sword barring a poor Millwall side who's managers only idea is hoof and fight for 2nd ball. More savvy managers are negating us and as people work us out and how relatively predictable we are in the massive possession we have then more managers will do likewise. 2 draws and 2 defeats in the last 4 ... 3 of them in the league & not more than a single goal in any of those games and I'm sorry we haven't created a string of easy chances generally either. That HAS to change starting Saturday. I'm certainly not calling for Parkers head but he simply must adapt his approach, otherwise it won't be the minority who begin to lose patience.

toshes mate

In one respect Parker appears more vulnerable to criticism and more serious actions by virtue of his alleged greater input to recruitment matters.  I use 'alleged' since I am very wary of PR by proxy that uses ambiguous words, e.g. greater and input, when determining matters that are almost certainly unsuited to superficial explanations.