This team

[Statto]

Sorry – don't hold to that at all. A striker works more on instinct & should jump on a moment of opportunity whereas defenders rely more on shape and organisation. Why don't we score tap ins, and don't say as the opposition park the bus as Liverpool & City score their fair share of close range finishes once they open the opposition up. The majority of our goals seem to be spectacular strikes outside or at lest on the edge of the area. This IMO is a total bi-product of our over-ponderous and slow build up play. Parker needs to find a way to get us zipping the ball  more quickly in the opposition half – more running off the ball needed – more players gambling by making runs into the opposition area. Those things for me are certainly not happening enough at present. We're going into a very winnable set of games & I suspect both the board and fans will have expectations that we go into November in the top 6 and not miles off the top 2 places in terms of points. I sat fairly quietly observing during the WBA game but many around me were growing increasingly frustrated at our pedestrian style of play and voices raised in discontent & the occasion boo was plainly heard. As much as some want to vindicate this (in my opinion) overly cautious, slow, deliberate style of play it will soon lose the faith of many of our supporters if wins & goals aren't forthcoming & I suspect the board don't care how we play – as long as results are in evidence. Add to this I think Parkers stubbornness in using substitutes until late in the day and failing to address tactical ploys of opposition managers as was certainly the case with Bilic on Saturday when it was crying for a Stef Jo to come on (For a Reid, Cav of Knockaert) to get amongst their midfield when they took control for the last 25 mins – I think there's only so long that Scott Parker can use the dominance / possession card & people claim we're unlucky. We have the best front 3 in the division – are they all missing a string of sitters? No – Mitro in fact had 5 in 5 before Saturday, it's a fact they're not being put into positions in space that are clear goalscoring opportunities. We've not really put anyone to the sword barring a poor Millwall side who's managers only idea is hoof and fight for 2nd ball. More savvy managers are negating us and as people work us out and how relatively predictable we are in the massive possession we have then more managers will do likewise. 2 draws and 2 defeats in the last 4 ... 3 of them in the league & not more than a single goal in any of those games and I'm sorry we haven't created a string of easy chances generally either. That HAS to change starting Saturday. I'm certainly not calling for Parkers head but he simply must adapt his approach, otherwise it won't be the minority who begin to lose patience.

I can't see much in this post that adds to the specific point about the quality of shots on target. I could perhaps agree that our forwards aren't "missing a string of sitters" but IMO, none of the goals we conceded were "sitters" either, ie they weren't easier chances than those our forwards have missed. I suggest we agree to disagree on that point.

Your post seems to be a general rant about Parker covering everything down to the timing of substitutions. FWIW I agree with 90% of your post, in particular the fundamental point that we desperately need to increase the tempo.

I don't agree this means Parker has to "adapt his approach". I don't think he tells the players to keep the tempo slow, limit their movement etc. IMO his approach is correct, but will take time to finesse, ie, to speed up. Let's not forget we were just as poor, or even worse, for the first few months under Jokanovic in 15/16, 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19. The passing game takes time for new players to adapt to, and they also need time to learn each other's habits and preferences.

Also for the record, I'm not necessarily saying I think Parker is up to the job, just that IMO there's no point judging him yet (particularly when our passing, possession and shots on target statistics are all promising IMO).   

[Spirit of 2000]

Fair comments although I'm certain a manager would have significant input into something as key as the tempo his side play

[Jim©]

i'm getting slightly bored of this over-emphasised view that our attacks take so long to reach the oppositions box and that 90% of our chances come from slow build up. They don't at all. look at West Brom game:
TC pull back to Cav early on- quick attack
Reed through ball to TC (def not slow build up) and tipped onto cross bar
TC cross (after he'd broken 1/2 length of pitch down left) to Reid's head
TC ball laid across to Knockeart low down save.
These were 4 of our 7 shots on target, all after swift movement and build up.
Oddly the 5th was our goal which DID come from slow, purposeful build up with the oppo camped behind the ball.

I can't see an issue with the plan- our shots on target compared to shots conceded on target will hold us in good stead this season- there's no other team that can match those at the moment, so the points will come.

[Spirit of 2000]

i'm getting slightly bored of this over-emphasised view that our attacks take so long to reach the oppositions box and that 90% of our chances come from slow build up. They don't at all. look at West Brom game:
TC pull back to Cav early on- quick attack
Reed through ball to TC (def not slow build up) and tipped onto cross bar
TC cross (after he'd broken 1/2 length of pitch down left) to Reid's head
TC ball laid across to Knockeart low down save.
These were 4 of our 7 shots on target, all after swift movement and build up.
Oddly the 5th was our goal which DID come from slow, purposeful build up with the oppo camped behind the ball.

I can't see an issue with the plan- our shots on target compared to shots conceded on target will hold us in good stead this season- there's no other team that can match those at the moment, so the points will come.

Or maybe that just proves that on the occasion we moved the ball quicker, something came of it. When we move it too slowly the only way we're likely to score is through a long distance strike like Saturday, are we cutting teams to shreds through incisive high tempo football as under Slav in the 2nd half of our promotion season or in the days of Tigana? Most certainly not. Other issues include the wingers are not providing cut backs enough, Mitro is being isolated and we need to get one of the wingers or midfielders closer to him when we attack. We're not creating or missing a host of chances, we've not scored more than 1 in a game for an age, we've fallen to 11th in the table as a result. Are we just the unluckiest side in the league or is the problem more systematic? I know what I think & the goals for & points tally don't lie – and we've scored over a third of our total goals in one match (Millwall)

[Jim©]

We ARE creating a host of chances though:
Most chances created EFL- Fulham (83)
Most shots on target- Fulham (37)
Most shots on target p/g- Fulham (5.3)
Most successful passes in opp half- Fulham (1,514)

At the other end we're also conceding few chances. It would suggest that things will turn our way, so worrying about being 11th mid way through September is pointless IMO.

[Sting of the North]

We ARE creating a host of chances though:
Most chances created EFL- Fulham (83)
Most shots on target- Fulham (37)
Most shots on target p/g- Fulham (5.3)
Most successful passes in opp half- Fulham (1,514)

At the other end we're also conceding few chances. It would suggest that things will turn our way, so worrying about being 11th mid way through September is pointless IMO.

:plus one:

[Spirit of 2000]

A circular debate that I've covered already in this post as again copied below - The chances are not clear cut, nobody is missing a raft of sitters - Let's agree to disagree as this will only go round again in the same manner - suffice to say people who think in the manner as I do are not a small minority so I suggest even if you disagree there's something in it. This is my final word on the subject for now as I wish to avoid this thread becoming a circular repetition.  However it is a results business and ours are poor for a side with the talent we possess. I've given my reasons and they're there to read. Lets see how the next few games go as a repeat of the last 7 over the next 7 will see Parker under serious pressure

>> A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.<<

[Statto]

Most shots on target- Fulham (37)

The stats I've just looked up have Leeds on 38 shots on target, so we're second. But our shots on target/goals ratio, 30%, is poor - 14th.

It's perhaps more notable that we've only conceded 14 shots on target, which is the least in the league. But our save percentage, 57%, is 20th, so even worse than our shots on target/goals ratio.

So even if you concede the quality of our shots on target is low (debatable anyway IMO) the bigger issue is how many of the opposition's shots on target are resulting in goals.

I'm sorry to say it just does not reflect well on Bettinelli, unless you believe, to paraphrase another poster above, Betts is "the unluckiest GK in the league"

[Sting of the North]

A circular debate that I've covered already in this post as again copied below - The chances are not clear cut, nobody is missing a raft of sitters - Let's agree to disagree as this will only go round again in the same manner - suffice to say people who think in the manner as I do are not a small minority so I suggest even if you disagree there's something in it.

>> A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.<<

But still, people have given examples of when we did create clear cut chances, and for some reason you seem to believe that those chances are created in a vacuum because we happened to play the ball quicker. I thought the point of the possession game in many ways is to wear the opponents down so that you then can cease your opportunities that will eventually appear. I admit that I wouldn't mind if we managed to create even more such chances, but you may have noticed that most teams set up to mostly defend when they face us (either by design or necessity). Thus, it is not always possible to attack quickly. Do you have a thought on that?

Some poster also questioned whether for example our opponents have been able to create much higher quality chances with their quick attacks. What is your stance on that?

Further, do you have anything (other than an alleged "not a small minority") to back up your feeling that we on average create less clear cut chances than other teams in the Championship? Because looking just at stats (which admittedly often don't tell the full story) we do create the most chances.

With the above said, I do agree that we would probably be even better if we managed to up the tempo a notch in our passing, and I am also confident that it is an aim for SP and the players to do just that. First and foremost however I believe that we need to score more on our clear cut chances as well as stop letting in soft goals. Normally I would think that such things will fairly much even out over a season though so not too worried just yet.

[Jim©]

I'm sorry to say it just does not reflect well on Bettinelli, unless you believe, to paraphrase another poster above, Betts is "the unluckiest GK in the league"

Herein lies (IMO) the reason why we've not many more points than we do. Just not good enough unfortunately.
Re the shots- i was just quoting a post I'd seen (i'd not looked them up myself)
In answer to the Sting OTN, I think we'll possibly find away games a little easier as teams come at us more so we can hit them quick once possession has turned over.

[Spirit of 2000]

As per my last reply I'm done on this subject for now and will see what transpires Saturday before commenting again. However below is a post from a Sheff Wednesday fan on owls talk ... discussing the weekends game. Note the 1st & 2nd paragraphs.  It seems neutrals/opposition fans see the same sort of thing.

》Seen Fulham a couple of times on TV and they totally dominate possession with lots of short passing very much in the same way as their manager Scott Parker used to play. For all of their possession they don't create as many chances as you would imagine.



The front 3 of Mitrovic, Cavaleiro and Knockheart look a real handful but I think the slow build up that they employ through midfield  actually hampers them and allows teams to get organised at the back.



If Tom Lees is fit I would bring him back in and move Ilorfa to right back as I think he would be able to handle Knockheart better than Odubaju, would also give us one more tall player at the back to help out with Mitrovic. Also wouldn't start Murphy and replace him with Luongo to give us a bit more presence in midfield to start off with.《

[Sting of the North]

Still doesn't change the fact (as per this thread, I haven't looked it up or counted myself) that we create more chances so far than any other team in the division, so for me it's not super evident that it is not the way forward.

I prefer to have my own view of what happens, and am not really bothered whether or not other fans or opposing fans share them since I will be equally wrong or right regardless (if there even is such a thing as wrong or right here). But I am happy to agree to disagree, since I share your view that it is unlikely that we will get any further. 

[WindyCity]

Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth.  The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown.  These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.

Think what you want - I note you've made the same argument before now - but anyone who knows anything about football knows that's not how it works. For a fantastic illustration of what happens when you throw too many new players into the team too quickly, see Fulham last season. You're right to say it's "excuse making" but wrong to imply that affects the veracity or significance of the point. Sometimes in life there are excuses for things.

Point taken, and I know I've made the gelling issue point before, and I will continue to do so.  Of course, a certain amount of practice and playing time together is beneficial, but I see this bed-in stuff all the time, and I just don't buy into it, rightly or wrongly.  It doesn't take weeks or months of playing together for a player to know to make a pass, a through ball, to set a team mate loose to a one v one.  You make that pass, regardless whether the receiving player is known or familiar to that player or not.  I just don't see this as rocket science, and pros should easily be able to play their appointed roles in spite of short "bed-in" time together.  Like I said, just my opinion, right or wrong.

I would also add that I don't see last years' debacle an issue of gelling or too many players not knowing each other.  There were a lot of team "issues" early on you may recall with unhappiness/trouble in the clubhouse.  A leaky defense was primary in last years' show.  And if I am correct, many of the defensive players were familiar with each other.  Last years' FFC squad just wasn't good enough for Prem level competition and the additions brought in were not the 'right' players as was discussed ad nauseam in this forum.

[Statto]

I would also add that I don't see last years' debacle an issue of gelling or too many players not knowing each other.  There were a lot of team "issues" early on you may recall with unhappiness/trouble in the clubhouse.  A leaky defense was primary in last years' show.  And if I am correct, many of the defensive players were familiar with each other.  Last years' FFC squad just wasn't good enough for Prem level competition and the additions brought in were not the 'right' players as was discussed ad nauseam in this forum.

No, they didn't know each other.

Our first choice defensive players last year would have been - 

Rico
TFM - Chambers - Mawson - Bryan


That's an excellent back 5 on paper, good enough for a mid-table PL team, but they performed terribly -  IMO because all five of them were new to the team.

In the end we settled on a different group, which generally seemed to be -

Rico
Christie/Odoi - Odoi/Mawson - Ream/MLM - Bryan

I will concede that most of those players (Odoi, Ream, MLM and Christie) were simply not good enough. But in any case, even looking at those players, only Ream and Odoi had played a decent number of games together.   

[WindyCity]

The team has not played well? I give up!!

Sure, that is you prerogative.  My frustration with FFC are the points left on the table, pure and simple.  Not getting the job done.  In games where they did in fact dominate play.  And mind you, some of that 'domination' was nothing more than diddling with themselves, keeping possession, and posing no real threat to the opposition.  Teams are laying back letting FFC play with themselves, and then striking back against FFC on the opportunities that they get.  All that 'possession' does not necessarily mean "playing well", does it?  Thankfully it is early in season, plenty of time to gain some momentum and some wins.  But right now, all we see is a mid table side.  Results are what I am looking for, and assuming FFC fans feel the same.  This is a results oriented business. 

[Woolly Mammoth]

We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many on here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.

[WindyCity]

We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many in here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.

Wooly, I am gonna keep my expectations high.  Yes, 2-3 wins in a row would be terrific.  Fingers crossed.  We had that chance you mention of playing a side above us, at home, and walked away with one point, just a few days ago.  Agreed, it's early, thankfully, and plenty of time to get things right.  But let's not forget, all the games count, regardless when they are played.  It would be a bleeding shame if FFC failed at promotion based on points dropped these first seven games.  I know, spilt milk and all.  But these dropped points have me very frustrated.

COYW!

[Woolly Mammoth]

We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many in here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.

Wooly, I am gonna keep my expectations high.  Yes, 2-3 wins in a row would be terrific.  Fingers crossed.  We had that chance you mention of playing a side above us, at home, and walked away with one point, just a few days ago.  Agreed, it's early, thankfully, and plenty of time to get things right.  But let's not forget, all the games count, regardless when they are played.  It would be a bleeding shame if FFC failed at promotion based on points dropped these first seven games.  I know, spilt milk and all.  But these dropped points have me very frustrated.

COYW!

I agree, You are right of course that the victory's at the beginning are just as important as the victory's towards the end.

[Skatzoffc]

There are some very long posts on this thread and that's for sure. So I will try to keep it short.

I know it's a debate, but this kind of dissection of the club at this stage of the season seams a bit ott. Just an opinion.

We are notoriously slow starters and only 7 games into the season. Some of the so called easy clubs we have done well against have turned out not to be easy teams after all. We have played some of the fancied teams but I still haven't seen a team, imo, that is better than us. We haven't won all the games but hopefully you get what I mean.

As the season progresses I see us getting stronger and the other teams becoming weaker due to injuries etc. Just a hunch having watched us for many years. I still see us finishing top 6, probably top 3. That's a good season for me.

Some of our players need to become more team players . Namely Cav and Knockeart. This will come hopefully.

We have some good young players in the team.

I hope we stick with Parker as I believe stability in the club is more important at present than another tough year in the Premier league.

Frankly I'm really enjoying the season so far. After last season, I'd suggest others try to do the same.

Coyw!

[colinwhite]

The idea that you throw  a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain. Add to that the fact fact that we are playing in a possession based style which takes much longer to develop tactically than a defensive counter atttacking style and some of the comments made on here are way off the mark. We havent steamrollered every team with results,but apart from the Barnsley defeat have shown progress in every game. Individual errors have cost us points,but we are creating plenty of chances and even teams like WBA and seasoned trainers like Billic dont have an answer. They got the point but the game did not go how they wanted at any point,as the desperation on this unbeaten teams coach clearly showed.
Its early days and we will start putting results together. We are 3 points off 2nd place !!!!! Some posts on here criticising SP and the team are way over the top . Its frustrating we are not top of the table ,but we are not entitled to be regardless of what we spent. Some people need to be careful what they wish for . A change of management would guarantee us no promotion ,just as Ranieri guaranteed us relegation , for it would clearly mark a change in direction and we know that rarely works.
We are playing some superb football, and if people cant see that then its pointless having this sort of debate.