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Cyrus Christie - The Times

Started by Weybridge White, October 06, 2019, 08:09:17 PM

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toshes mate

Thanks to KeenCottager for posting the article.  It is a bit tougher  to read without the paragraphs but it is worth getting through it if you can.  It is a very clear article about unmistakable racism and it is of value to understand where Cyrus Christie is and has been coming from.  I think, if anything, the article would have been better without the present issues Christie has at FFC regarding game time, since that should have absolutely nothing to do with racism.   

I was taught at a very young age that we must always hear and accept a victim's account of anything that involves some form of attack on them or abuse of them because it teaches us respect and gives us an ability to stop certain things from becoming ever worse by recognising the earliest signs of any unhealthy prejudice.   

Peabody

Quote from: YankeeJim on October 06, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Riversider on October 06, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Sooner he goes the better.


Classy response.

What do you expect from Riversider,, very rarely has a good word to say about Fulham.

Barrett487

Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!


Barrett487

Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.

Barrett487

Quote from: The Rock on October 07, 2019, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: bog on October 06, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


092.gif   

I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.

Are you saying that Bairdy suffered racial abuse? I neither accept, or recall that

Statto

#65
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 07, 2019, 06:41:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 07, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
Booing our own players is wrong. I cringed at the crowd's reaction when Ranieri made that sub (was it Christie on for Schurrle IIRC?) and again when Kamara got booed after missing that penalty. IIRC Martin also got booed after his 'strike action'.

Similarly racism is wrong and I fully accept most on here who've been going to games for many years will have heard something racist from a Fulham fan at some point. I have.

Nonetheless, I see no reason to conflate the two things. That is, unless someone is claiming they witnessed the booing of Christie and then the persons doing it turned to them and said "we dont care that he's playing poorly, we're just booing him cos he's black."

Also FWIW I retract my previous criticism of Christie for ostensibly conflating the two things. Having read the article it sounds like he treats them as separate issues and just happens to have been asked questions about both things in the interview

The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive though. If someone thinks a player plays poorly and then uses racist language towards the player as a way of expressing the dislike, the underlying reason to abusing the player is first and foremost that he isn't playing well but that doesn't make the words less racist. Not saying that is the case here though.

True, but even such a small overlap as that hasn't been specifically alleged on this thread (so far) and in any case, it wouldn't IMO justify reframing the debate in the way some are seeking to. It would be a bit like a committee tasked with investigating the severity and root causes of the lateness of British trains finding out that a conductor once, when confronted with a complaint from a BAME commuter about the late arrival of a train, used a racist term towards her. Assuming that was an isolated incident, would it justify reframing the investigation as an investigation into racism on British trains, or even making racism a significant feature of their review? No, they'd accept that despite that incident, late trains have substantially nothing to do with racism.


The Rational Fan

I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.

toshes mate

Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.

Peabody

I seem to remember, that when Barry Hayles first joined us and didn't score for quite a few games, (his first goal was against Southampton in the 3rd round of the cup) he took quite a lot of abuse on the old offal. How short sighted was that? Jazz Richards was in the same boat. The abuse he got on here was totally unacceptable. Whatever these players ability, they are Fulham Players and as such, deserve our support.


70sPimlico

Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.

I think booing is a very strange thing for anyone to do. Unless you're at a pantomime.

But to aggresively boo another human being is just odd.

Dodgin

Just read the article, he is a decent man. The thought of booing one of our players is dreadful.

MJG

Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.
Just the views of a long term fan


Spirit of 2000

Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.

Mark Cooper - truly odious & totally useless.

Matt10

To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.

MJG

Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.

Mark Cooper - truly odious & totally useless.
Exhibit number 1
Just the views of a long term fan


filham

Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.

charlieFFC

Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:32:53 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!

He doesn't want to be here. He is not at the level required to play here. Whilst I have sympathy for him at times and despise those who have racially abused this doesn't mean I have to want him to be in the starting 11 nor do I think he is right to feature week in week out about Fulham's manager or fans.

Spirit of 2000

Quote from: filham on October 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.


Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.


toshes mate

Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:52 PM
To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.
Booing was first observed in ancient Greece as a crowd/audience commentary on a theatrical performance that stank and was the opposite of a cheer; it was considered a civic duty to participate in making this judgement.  It is well observed throughout history as the opposite of applause, and was to be especially expected by stage performers who were being paid by their audience to appear.  I would guess that most people who are alive and kicking have personal issues of some kind and those that say they don't are either lying or in denial.  Whether those issues drive someone to boo or cheer is not a proven theory. 

Sting of the North

Quote from: charlieFFC on October 08, 2019, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:32:53 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!

He doesn't want to be here. He is not at the level required to play here. Whilst I have sympathy for him at times and despise those who have racially abused this doesn't mean I have to want him to be in the starting 11 nor do I think he is right to feature week in week out about Fulham's manager or fans.

Is he doing that week in and week out. I must have missed that.