Cyrus Christie - The Times

[Spirit of 2000]

To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.

Booing was first observed in ancient Greece as a crowd/audience commentary on a theatrical performance that stank and was the opposite of a cheer; it was considered a civic duty to participate in making this judgement.  It is well observed throughout history as the opposite of applause, and was to be especially expected by stage performers who were being paid by their audience to appear.  I would guess that most people who are alive and kicking have personal issues of some kind and those that say they don't are either lying or in denial.  Whether those issues drive someone to boo or cheer is not a proven theory.

Yep - rotten tomatoes syndrome, chucked at performers to let them know their efforts are poor. I don't condone booing of players per se but certain individuals - my example being that of Mark Cooper probably justified it in some part at least. If I'm rubbish at work my boss won't applaud me & encourage - as is the case with most people who would receive a warning prior to the 'tin tac'

[Riversider]

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,

But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.

If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.

Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.

Soo true, it's a shame that one or two are struggling to understand any of that, nobody on here, not one single person (be honest now) wants to see Cyrus Christie play at right back for the rest of the season,
That has absolutely far call to do with the colour of his skin, and everything to do with his lack of footballing ability, he's not exactly Paul Parker or Ryan Fredericks is he ?

[RaySmith]

I think pro sport is different from a 'normal' job - so much to do with confidence and motivation,  brutally competitive in a way that most  jobs aren't, and  performed before a paying public, - booing players, who are probably doing their best, only undermines them rather than spurs them on.

[MJG]

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,

But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.

If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.

Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.

Soo true, it's a shame that one or two are struggling to understand any of that, nobody on here, not one single person (be honest now) wants to see Cyrus Christie play at right back for the rest of the season,
That has absolutely far call to do with the colour of his skin, and everything to do with his lack of footballing ability, he's not exactly Paul Parker or Ryan Fredericks is he ?

No one has said that because he is black is the reason he is being criticised.
BUT what some are struggling to understand is that some comments (not necessarily here) both verbal and written mention his colour. That's is the element of any criticism that has no place.
There have been mentions in recent times on here that refer to a players colour an the reason why they may have underperformed, that is the type of thing I mentioned earlier in this topic.

[toshes mate]

In a manner of speaking Cyrus has all the cards - aces and trumps - in his hand, as do all his team mates, to change things around and make himself indispensable as a certain starter.  He has to be better than the other players vying for his spot.  That was the same situation he faced when he first signed with FFC.  Fredericks lived up to his professional status and gave his all to secure promotion despite having a contract lined up on the other side of London.  Fredericks's performances never dropped off. 

Last season Cyrus had reasonable chances to shine in the PL and you can shine even in the worse team ever, although it is much harder to do so.  His performances were not what was required and he was not alone.  Others who had been first team regulars in our promotion run also suffered perhaps even more unfairly.  This season his target must be to be better than other right sided players in the formation that the coaches have a preference for.   He needs to catch the eye of his coaches and be aware that his team mates may likely up their game too.  This cannot be new to him after so many years in the game.  I do hope he can show something truly better than what we have seen so far because that is all anyone can ask of first team players - that they are worthy fixtures and fittings that cannot be cast aside.  If he pushes hard then SS and DO will have to get better too.  It's a win-win for FFC.   

[Logicalman]

I read the article as published on here, and I cannot see where Cyrus actually directs any of his comments regarding racism directly at Fulham fans. The journo mentions the alleged abuse towards his sister, not Cyrus, he basically concentrates on his childhood, growing up, family values and the incident concerning when he played for Ireland.

He does, however, go into detail concerning his and others experiences and how he sees society's attitude towards racism, and he is correct in that (though I would take him to task on the quote 'Have you ever been turned down for an ice cream because of the colour of your skin?', because I have, not an ice-cream but at a Subway where the staff totally ignored me whilst other customers of a different skin colour were served immediately - even when I was the only one left I was ignored), but it does work both ways, perhaps not as prevalent but it happens.

I was not impressed when the article then touches on SP and why Cyrus isn't being picked regularly, as, given the tone of the preceding contents, there is a subtle inference that somehow all this is linked which I am unsure if that was Cyrus's intention.

Personally I have nothing against Cyrus, Sess, Odoi or Mitro any further than I have against Bryan, Ream or Arter, they are all players that wear the Fulham shirt and that earns my respect. Where my feelings towards the players differ, however, is when I feel either they are not good enough, or are not trying enough, for the club and fans, and I absolutely reserve my right to express those feelings in any fashion within the laws of the land. I have never booed a Fulham player, and doubt I ever would, and I do not condone those that do, be neither do I condemn them, I just feel it's not the way I wish to express myself.   

[bigalffc]

I hope Cyrus has a great career. He seems to be a decent chap, things just haven't worked for him with us. No booing folks, let him move on in peace.

[RaySmith]

I think the  story of his sister being abused implies that there is an element of racism in some fans  abuse of Christie, though i don't think that the article implies that there is racism in Fulham management's attitude towards him - well, he's been dropped for another black player, with  yet another black player also ahead of him in  his position.

Fans are free to boo if they want, and to abuse players online, but I just think all this  is counter productive re a player's performance - it's more likely to make them play even worse imo. Especially booing and abuse during a game, though this is hardly a new thing.

But extreme abuse of your own players, even away from the actual game, and picking on every  fault,and ignoring the positive, does seem a sign of the present times, when vitriol and abuse has become  common in public debate, and everything is  either good or bad, black or white, one side or the other, and there's often an undercurrent of racism.

[Twig]

I read the article as published on here, and I cannot see where Cyrus actually directs any of his comments regarding racism directly at Fulham fans. The journo mentions the alleged abuse towards his sister, not Cyrus, he basically concentrates on his childhood, growing up, family values and the incident concerning when he played for Ireland.

He does, however, go into detail concerning his and others experiences and how he sees society's attitude towards racism, and he is correct in that (though I would take him to task on the quote 'Have you ever been turned down for an ice cream because of the colour of your skin?', because I have, not an ice-cream but at a Subway where the staff totally ignored me whilst other customers of a different skin colour were served immediately - even when I was the only one left I was ignored), but it does work both ways, perhaps not as prevalent but it happens.

I was not impressed when the article then touches on SP and why Cyrus isn't being picked regularly, as, given the tone of the preceding contents, there is a subtle inference that somehow all this is linked which I am unsure if that was Cyrus's intention.

Personally I have nothing against Cyrus, Sess, Odoi or Mitro any further than I have against Bryan, Ream or Arter, they are all players that wear the Fulham shirt and that earns my respect. Where my feelings towards the players differ, however, is when I feel either they are not good enough, or are not trying enough, for the club and fans, and I absolutely reserve my right to express those feelings in any fashion within the laws of the land. I have never booed a Fulham player, and doubt I ever would, and I do not condone those that do, be neither do I condemn them, I just feel it's not the way I wish to express myself.   

This.

[charlieFFC]

There is no difference between how fans react to Christie and someone like Senderos when he played here.

[jayffc]

Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested. Thats just not how it works.
If being rich was a barometer for your ability to maintain your mental health. The richest people in the world would be perfectly fine, never depressed and never giving a crap about what anyone else thinks....and yet, the evidence suggests this is far from the case. Plenty of very successful and rich people committing suicide and depressed all over the place. Life is about much more.

We are, at our essence, tribal/communal beings. Humans thrive on connection, there are issues there with belonging and being accepted (by the "pack") ...its a large reason Mitro stayed, rejected as not good enough at Newcastle he comes here, immediately feels he belongs, stays despite lucrative offers to move on even when playing at a lower level.


Suggesting someone who grew up loving the job they do and have largely only ever wanted to do. Should have to give it all up because some morons with anger issues that need attending to, scream and holla out how f***ing s*** he is every week and boo him at every opportunity is again, a sad state of looking at things to me. For me ,the more the convo is had around mental health, the more people may work out its not the best way to behave or indeed helpful for anyone.

Yes footballers need support to reaffirm that hey should not take too personally the things shouted from the stands, but theres only so much a human can take. Thats how humans function....ask and performer, they can read 100 reviews and the 1 that sticks with them is the overtly negative one sadly....its a very human thing.

Away from the ground Ive said I dont feel christie is right for this club. He hasnt played well enough to start and certainly its time to part ways for all of us. But I wish him as a man well doing the thing he loves. I hope he finds, somewhere ,a platform to perform and to be welcomed into the team with open arms. Perhaps in that circumstance he'll find some much better form again.


On a side note Crouch has spoken on his podcast about it being really tough sometimes hearing all those jokes from the stands. Especially for his parents sitting in the ground. He has a fun demeanour but you can tell its not always so breezy to shrug off abuse. Also that abuse was coming from opposing teams fans, thats a key difference mentally.

But anyway.
All the best to him, as I say, I hope he finds a happier place in life.

[Sting of the North]

Very well said jayffc

[Statto]

Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.

[toshes mate]

Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   

[Statto]

Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   

Hmmm, not sure I could agree with that TM. Potentially a very dangerous oversimplification IMO. 

FWIW I entirely agree with jayffc that even "wealthy" people like footballers are susceptible to mental health problems. Yes money makes your life easier but it can give rise to greater social pressure and expectations.

My issue with jayffc's post is just that he seemed to be manufacturing a disagreement with a comment that no one had made on this thread. I wondered if he was perhaps referring to my post on page 1, but if he was, then he didn't read that post properly. 

[FFC1987]

Wouldn't a factor in the rich vs poor mental health debate be access and affordability of care as well though?

[Sting of the North]

Wouldn't a factor in the rich vs poor mental health debate be access and affordability of care as well though?

Most definitely in my opinion. Ideally as many factors as possible is considered since it is rarely one single aspect that is the only determining factor behind something. Far too often over simplification leads a debate in the wrong direction or sidetracks it (not saying this is the case with Toshes post, haven't read the report referred to). Just look at debates about equal pay and how the "facts" are used in all matter of situations, with many just accepting it.

[MJG]

Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.

maybe he means this from earlier..

"on the other hand, the money these lads are on, in most cases they should be able to handle a bit of verbal abuse." 

[Statto]

Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.

maybe he means this from earlier..

"on the other hand, the money these lads are on, in most cases they should be able to handle a bit of verbal abuse."

I strongly suspect he does. However that would mean he entirely overlooked the preceding sentence, "the football community in general needs to be mindful of mental health issues to which footballers are particularly susceptible", and the qualification "in most cases".

[toshes mate]

Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   

Hmmm, not sure I could agree with that TM. Potentially a very dangerous oversimplification IMO. 

FWIW I entirely agree with jayffc that even "wealthy" people like footballers are susceptible to mental health problems. Yes money makes your life easier but it can give rise to greater social pressure and expectations.

My issue with jayffc's post is just that he seemed to be manufacturing a disagreement with a comment that no one had made on this thread. I wondered if he was perhaps referring to my post on page 1, but if he was, then he didn't read that post properly. 

Matters not one jot whether you agree with it or not, those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings.  And, historically, it has always been true that psychiatric medicine has catered more and better for affluent members of society than those who would have been locked away in an asylum on the first signs of being a problem whether they were lunatics or not. 

Many, many books have been written on the subject (Freud and his early wealthy 'patients' is a good starting place).  My only desire to to present a balanced view of a very controversial subject which is badly misunderstood by the vast majority of us including many of those practising medicine for the NHS etc. and is not served by vitriol condemning vitriol IMHO.