Author Topic: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham  (Read 2035 times)

Offline love4ffc

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Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« on: October 15, 2019, 05:08:26 PM »
Found this quote on Twitter.  Searched for it and found it in this article.  Ranieri seems to blame everything but himself for his problems while at Fulham. 

Article that the quote was lifted from:
https://www.football-italia.net/145260/ranieri-players-must-fight-samp

“Sampdoria are not Fulham. Don’t forget, Fulham were a newly-promoted club with players who had never been in the Premier League. In the January transfer window, they followed the advice of algorithms. This is totally different."

So, in a nutshell all of Ranieri’s problems were due to the players experiences and Tony Khan’s two boxes checked for recruitment?  None of it had to do with his style of play, tactics (or lack thereof) or his player selections? 

It will be very interesting to see how he does with Sampdoria who are firmly rooted to the bottom of their table.   



Offline filham

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2019, 05:38:34 PM »
Yes, I think what Ranieri is saying about Fulham is fair comment, we all new that the players bought in were based on computer data and that they lacked premier league experience. I think all of this has now been accepted by our management and hopefully will not be repeated.

Of course Ranieri must have been aware of the situation when he took the job on.

Offline love4ffc

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2019, 06:22:37 PM »
For me, Renieri not only knew what he was getting into and how things were going to be run, but supposedly came to the Khan with a detailed plan on how he was going to run things and make Fulham successful. 

He should take some of the blame for how Fulham performed due to his style of play (that did not suit the players we had)and tactics (or lack thereof.   


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 07:03:16 PM »
Before SJ was even sacked Ranieri told the Khans that, in his opinion, the players in the Fulham squad were good enough to compete and survive in the PL. 

I hadn't realised Ranieri had marked out Aboubakar Kamara as an essential and key member of his squad and how those incidents with the penalty, the yoga, and the security personnel conspired to wreck the Italian's genius of a plan to keep us up. 

Our loss is clearly Sampdoria's gain ... but then Italian's do love eating together don't they.

Offline colinwhite

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 07:30:39 PM »
We couldnt have recruited a worse fit for us at the time. Players were brought into to play out from the back  with Jokanovic and he(Ranieri ) wanted pirates who could defend and  with pace play  on the counter. I wanted him to succeed but you didnt have to be einstein to see it was never going to work.

Offline Lyle from Hangeland

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 08:40:21 PM »
We wouldn’t have gotten Ryan Babel without the algorithm. Long live the algorithm!


Offline MikeW

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 09:39:40 PM »
Before SJ was even sacked Ranieri told the Khans that, in his opinion, the players in the Fulham squad were good enough to compete and survive in the PL. 

I hadn't realised Ranieri had marked out Aboubakar Kamara as an essential and key member of his squad and how those incidents with the penalty, the yoga, and the security personnel conspired to wreck the Italian's genius of a plan to keep us up. 

Our loss is clearly Sampdoria's gain ... but then Italian's do love eating together don't they.

Perhaps this is a heaven sent opportunity to offload Kamara and maybe even get a few quid for him?

Offline ALG01

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 11:08:39 PM »
when he joined he said very different things. but as an experienced coach he managed to make us rather worse, well very much worse. he in fact guaranteed our fate, he was a pathetic useless choice of manager. he was risk free, no risk of staying up... I did say so at the time he arrived and he exceeded my expectation of being totally useless.

Offline gang

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 12:24:53 AM »
We wouldn’t have gotten Ryan Babel without the algorithm. Long live the algorithm!


Yes, he made all the difference to our season; algorithm 😂🤣😂.


Offline The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 02:26:34 AM »
Mohamed Al Fayed invested in this club by "finding managers he believed in and backing them financial", with the objective of obtaining the kinds of revenue that Manchester United enjoy and making a small profit (to be the Manchester United of the South). Fulham Fans have to accept this didn't work financial and there is no indication that any investor that wants to follow "Back the Manager Financial to make a Profit" Business Model with Fulham in the Future.

Shahid Khan bought the club with an idea of doing things differently, his ideas of differently seems to be to invest in a "MoneyBall" Business Model run by someone he trusts (which happens to be his son that knows more about football than him but not as much as someone normally in such a position). I hope he continues to try to attempt this business model pouring money in every years, because if the "Moneyball Business Model" is proven not to work, there is no indication Fulham will return to "Back the Manager Model" and its just as likely FFC goes to either "Milk the Club for Cash" Business Model (used by Mike Ashley and Ed Woodward) or "Sell the Club and Ground" to whoever wants it (note, I am extremely pessimistic about this model going well).

While I question the Khan's Model; the "Khan Plan" has some logic as one-day within the range of 3 years to 30 years algorithms will be the best way to select the best value players to buy. When that day comes, the clubs with the best algorithms will be the one able to buy the best value players and hopefully Fulham will be best positioned to be one of those clubs with the best algorithms.

Seen that way, Shahid Khan investment of £100m+ to buy the players the FFC algorithms predict, might result in the FFC algorithm will improving and gaining future success in the transfer market of maybe £100m. This is an "optimistic but sane Business Model" that might or might not work, but as a Fulham Fan this plan requires massive investment into the club that has to be good for Fulham Fans and result in some better on field performance compared to running the club down.

Although the MAF model of "Back the Manager and we will become the Manchester United of the South" was never going to work, as a fan I loved that MAF tried to achieve it and it made us a good premier league team for a while. Shahid Khan backing his son, even if its fails to deliver a profit ever, maybe very good for FFC fans too and get us to at least be a yo-yo club for a while.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 03:13:45 AM by The Rational Fan »

Offline Woolly Mammoth

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 03:15:00 AM »
We wouldn’t have gotten Ryan Babel without the algorithm. Long live the algorithm!


Yes, he made all the difference to our season; algorithm 😂🤣😂.

Yes, algorithm is a word you will find in the English Dictionary between Aimless and Atrocious.

Offline The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 06:05:46 AM »
We wouldn’t have gotten Ryan Babel without the algorithm. Long live the algorithm!


Yes, he made all the difference to our season; algorithm 😂🤣😂.

Yes, algorithm is a word you will find in the English Dictionary between Aimless and Atrocious.

English Dictionary: Algorithm is "a set of rules to be followed to solve a problem".

The problem is "What players do we invest into in order to improve the clubs revenue (gate receipts, tv, commercial and player sales)?".

So, the algorithm is the set of rules that the club follows to by the best value players, whether that algorithm is "get a good manager and trust him" (like MAF) or that algorithm is  "get a good statisitics and trust the computer " (like SK & TK).

Whatever the "algorithm" is; if the owner is required to give money to make it work, then he has to believe the "algorithm" works, otherwise he won't give his money. If we convince the owner that "trust the computer" doesn't work (which maybe easy to do), then I doubt it will convince him that "backing the Manager" is better than "giving up and reducing his losses".

Conclusion: Trust the Statistics maybe the only business model that Shahid Khan (or anyone) is willing to invest £100m+ into. If SK stops believing in the current algorithm, then the money may dry out and we will have a similar type of owner to Mike Ashley with a championship team, a smaller stadium and a more valuable football pitch.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:40:14 AM by The Rational Fan »


Offline Mince n Tatties

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 07:55:42 AM »
We wouldn’t have gotten Ryan Babel without the algorithm. Long live the algorithm!


Yes, he made all the difference to our season; algorithm 😂🤣😂.

Yes, algorithm is a word you will find in the English Dictionary between Aimless and Atrocious.

I had a Algorithm once,the wife told me get it seen to
as I was starting to walk funny.😊

Offline RaySmith

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 08:21:47 AM »
Mohamed Al Fayed invested in this club by "finding managers he believed in and backing them financial", with the objective of obtaining the kinds of revenue that Manchester United enjoy and making a small profit (to be the Manchester United of the South). Fulham Fans have to accept this didn't work financial and there is no indication that any investor that wants to follow "Back the Manager Financial to make a Profit" Business Model with Fulham in the Future.

Shahid Khan bought the club with an idea of doing things differently, his ideas of differently seems to be to invest in a "MoneyBall" Business Model run by someone he trusts (which happens to be his son that knows more about football than him but not as much as someone normally in such a position). I hope he continues to try to attempt this business model pouring money in every years, because if the "Moneyball Business Model" is proven not to work, there is no indication Fulham will return to "Back the Manager Model" and its just as likely FFC goes to either "Milk the Club for Cash" Business Model (used by Mike Ashley and Ed Woodward) or "Sell the Club and Ground" to whoever wants it (note, I am extremely pessimistic about this model going well).

While I question the Khan's Model; the "Khan Plan" has some logic as one-day within the range of 3 years to 30 years algorithms will be the best way to select the best value players to buy. When that day comes, the clubs with the best algorithms will be the one able to buy the best value players and hopefully Fulham will be best positioned to be one of those clubs with the best algorithms.

Seen that way, Shahid Khan investment of £100m+ to buy the players the FFC algorithms predict, might result in the FFC algorithm will improving and gaining future success in the transfer market of maybe £100m. This is an "optimistic but sane Business Model" that might or might not work, but as a Fulham Fan this plan requires massive investment into the club that has to be good for Fulham Fans and result in some better on field performance compared to running the club down.

Although the MAF model of "Back the Manager and we will become the Manchester United of the South" was never going to work, as a fan I loved that MAF tried to achieve it and it made us a good premier league team for a while. Shahid Khan backing his son, even if its fails to deliver a profit ever, maybe very good for FFC fans too and get us to at least be a yo-yo club for a while.


You have to rember that Khan is inhibited by FFP, unlike MAF.

I don't  really see a lot of difference between them, in the way that you argue.
I think Khan backs his managers, and is prepared to spend big  from his own wealth to get Fulham  as successful as possible, and would spend what it takes within reason, to on players to achieve  this goal.

Maybe he has a more thought out long term plan for the club as a sustainable business, but surely that is in the club's interests too. And i think he definitely wants Fulham as long term  Prem club, not a yo-yo club, as we were for 13 years under MAF, of course, until he got fed up for whatever reasons. But we owe him big time, of course.

The 'algorithm' business, is surely  just a new way of finding appropriate players isn't it? and we still use traditional scouting methods too, under the two tick system - so we are informed anyway.

Khan Junior has said that Scott Parker has unprecedented involvement in the search for new players, and seems to think this a good thing - so implying that Parker is fully backed.

So, I think  it is Khan's urgent goal to be a long term Prem member, but sustainable also if possible, with money  made from the extra attendance, and general use of the new stand facilities going towards this, and this has to be a good thing for the club.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 08:25:39 AM by RaySmith »

Offline filham

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 10:41:07 AM »
Will an Algorithm based club ever achieve the success that Cloughie had at Forrest, I doubt it.
While there will never be another Clough there has to be room for strong individual managers with algorithms used as a supporting tool.


Offline ALG01

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2019, 10:46:38 AM »

algorithm
/ˈalɡərɪð(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: algorithm; plural noun: algorithms

    a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.

This is what i understand it to be. but in fact even that is not quite correct because it is not a problem solving opertion, it is a procedure that is followed by a computer or other device or even a human. you would use an algorithm to make your robot  peel a potato. that would not be problem solving.
so when they buy players they use an algorithm to identify players via a series of pre determined criteria.

the algorithm has no way of assesing the true value of a player on a pitch, it just asses a batch of stats and weights those according to the programmer.

Ranieri on the other hand was just useless.

Offline Fulham1959

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2019, 03:52:33 PM »

algorithm
/ˈalɡərɪð(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: algorithm; plural noun: algorithms

    a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.

This is what i understand it to be. but in fact even that is not quite correct because it is not a problem solving opertion, it is a procedure that is followed by a computer or other device or even a human. you would use an algorithm to make your robot  peel a potato. that would not be problem solving.
so when they buy players they use an algorithm to identify players via a series of pre determined criteria.

the algorithm has no way of assesing the true value of a player on a pitch, it just asses a batch of stats and weights those according to the programmer.

Ranieri on the other hand was just useless.

Great punchline !

Offline filham

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2019, 04:59:40 PM »
The big question has to be did we use an algorithm to select Ranieri.

Offline Woolly Mammoth

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2019, 05:34:06 PM »
The big question has to be did we use an algorithm to select Ranieri.

Exactly,

Offline TrenteSept

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 05:50:47 PM »
Data derived from algorithms can inform choices, but should never be the main determinant. The human side is far more important as we are dealing with flesh and blood, not robots.

So, questions like:

How will this player fit into our game-plan?
Will he settle here and find a connection with the rest of the team?
Is he playing in the brest position for him?

And so on.

But none of this is as important as the manager getting the best from the team through tactics and nurturing players.

Good managers make good players out of average ones.

Sometimes we struggle against inferior sides who are better managed, well-drilled and motivated.

Nothing to do with algorithms, which work better in the NFL as a function of how it's played.