Author Topic: Managers press conference .....  (Read 2023 times)

Offline ex-Pat

  • tjl
  • *
  • Posts: 235
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2019, 02:26:19 PM »
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..

Offline Statto

  • Mr Fayed
  • **
  • Posts: 10198
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2019, 02:30:51 PM »

No I do not expect 99% of managers to invariably defend players and never criticise them publicly. All the top managers, including Hogson and Jokanovic, regularly call out mistakes and poor performance publicly. Parker doesn't, and there's no evidence he does it privately either.

And for the record I never said the Hyndman incident was "odd" or disputed that there was "a marked improvement" after the Anguissa incident. I think you're missing my point with all due respect. I've no issue with a bit of 'carrot' if it's balanced against a bit of 'stick'. Parker is all carrot and no stick. 

Fair enough, but the point I was making (badly) was that privately we don't know how Parker is and what he says/does with the players ("no evidence he does is privately" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it?). Personally, after watching him play and make the very very best out of meagre ability, I'd think that he'd not accept anything other than 100% from his team.

No it is not in any way an "oxymoron" to speak of evidence of something done privately.

If I guy in a balaclava runs out of a bank holding a sack of cash and a gun, chased by a security guard and two police officers, that's "evidence" that "privately" he just robbed the bank. You do not need to have seen the actually robbery to infer what happened.   

Similarly, if our team was performing to the best of the players' inherent ability, that would be "evidence" that Parker is doing a good job with his coaching and man management "privately" at Motspur Park.

The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 02:35:47 PM by Statto »

Offline Sting of the North

  • The Bard/Corked Hat
  • *
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2019, 04:05:57 PM »


No it is not in any way an "oxymoron" to speak of evidence of something done privately.

If I guy in a balaclava runs out of a bank holding a sack of cash and a gun, chased by a security guard and two police officers, that's "evidence" that "privately" he just robbed the bank. You do not need to have seen the actually robbery to infer what happened.   

Similarly, if our team was performing to the best of the players' inherent ability, that would be "evidence" that Parker is doing a good job with his coaching and man management "privately" at Motspur Park.

The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.

I agree with you that it is not an oxymoron to refer to what you believe is going on behind closed doors and draw a conclusion based on the "evidence" (the performance by the team). But if we agree that the team is under performing to some degree (like up to a completely arbitrary 70 % of the expected level), those alleged sub par performances by the team can depend on so many factors so that it is in my opinion very difficult to nail down the actual cause(s).

If we exclude the possibility that the players are not just good enough (because past evidence suggest strongly that they should be sufficient to challenge for the title), then does the sub par performances depend on SP? Maybe completely, but at least certainly to a degree since it is his job to make the team perform. In any case it is SP's problem, because he is the obvious one taking the blame should the Khans share the belief that the team is under performing. Therefore SP is the one that has to find a solution. But that is probably beside the point.

So even if we agree that the team is under performing (which is reasonable in my view, btw), and if we also agree that it is at least to a large degree because of SP (which is also reasonable in my view) we then have to determine what it is that he does wrong (or fails to do at all perhaps). Let's for the sake of argument even agree that it would be a problem if SP was much carrot and little stick. Even if we would agree on all of that, this is where I am not at all keen to draw conclusions from what is still in my view extremely limited evidence at best. We don't know what is said or done at training or after or before games behind closed doors. I don't find the fact that SP does not want to criticize players publicly as any sort of evidence for him not being able to criticize them privately. The performance of the team is certainly no evidence in this regard, unless we conclude that the only possible reason for a team to under perform is that the coach is too much carrot and too little stick. I don't believe that it's the only possible reason.

As a side note, I think it honors SP that he does not criticize players publicly. I understand that people may have different views here, but in my book you keep a united front and sort out potential issues internally. That's why I also wasn't impressed when Ream openly complained about some of the new guys last season. In my book that is trying to deflect blame and it is the opposite of taking responsibility.     


Offline Dr Quinzel

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 493
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2019, 04:26:10 PM »
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..

Why?


Offline Jim©

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 639
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2019, 04:29:47 PM »

The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.

Sorry, but I can't agree with much or any of this.
Your comparison of a bank robbery and SP dealing with playing issues behind closed doors doesn't add anything.
Your "fact" that the team are only putting in 70% effort is not a fact at all, purely your view. Even top end fitness technology struggles to work out 70% effort, so how one fan can by eye is impressive or fantasy. Therefore the supposed 70% just cannot in any way be used as evidence- or that privately he's not getting things right with the team.

What I'll agree on is that there's probably more to come from this team. However I'd suggest it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager!!!

Offline Statto

  • Mr Fayed
  • **
  • Posts: 10198
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 05:01:45 PM »
it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager

now THAT is an oxymoron


Offline Jim©

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 639
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2019, 05:08:39 PM »
it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager

now THAT is an oxymoron

There's been loads, some have worked some haven't. If a coach, even that was top of the league had stopped tweaking his team/tactics, then no point in coaching them anymore surely?

Offline Statto

  • Mr Fayed
  • **
  • Posts: 10198
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2019, 05:12:46 PM »
So even if we agree that the team is under performing (which is reasonable in my view, btw), and if we also agree that it is at least to a large degree because of SP (which is also reasonable in my view) we then have to determine what it is that he does wrong (or fails to do at all perhaps). Let's for the sake of argument even agree that it would be a problem if SP was much carrot and little stick. Even if we would agree on all of that, this is where I am not at all keen to draw conclusions from what is still in my view extremely limited evidence at best. We don't know what is said or done at training or after or before games behind closed doors. I don't find the fact that SP does not want to criticize players publicly as any sort of evidence for him not being able to criticize them privately. The performance of the team is certainly no evidence in this regard, unless we conclude that the only possible reason for a team to under perform is that the coach is too much carrot and too little stick. I don't believe that it's the only possible reason.   

Fine. A well-reasoned post which I agree with. But the nature of a football forum is such that we can speculate "what it is that he does wrong". I don't claim my theory is anything more than that - a theory, largely speculative - but with some foundation in the factual observations I mentioned further up the thread.

As a side note, I think it honors SP that he does not criticize players publicly. I understand that people may have different views here, but in my book you keep a united front and sort out potential issues internally. That's why I also wasn't impressed when Ream openly complained about some of the new guys last season. In my book that is trying to deflect blame and it is the opposite of taking responsibility.     

I can see where you're coming from but suspect you'd struggle to name a great manager who hasn't publicly criticised his players.

***

On this subject I would also quote our very own Mark Schwarzer, talking about Roy Hodgson a few years ago (I know he isn't necessarily talking about public criticism):

"He can be an angry little man at times, but that's what you need to be. It's well documented that Sir Alex Ferguson has got a very mean streak, as do other managers who are successful. I don't know any manager who's successful who hasn't got that angry streak, or that ruthless streak. Our manager is no different."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:17:55 PM by Statto »

Offline WindyCity

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 959
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2019, 05:56:50 PM »
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..

Booo :031:


Offline davew

  • Mr Fayed
  • **
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2019, 07:36:49 PM »
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??

Offline Sting of the North

  • The Bard/Corked Hat
  • *
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2019, 09:29:32 PM »

Fine. A well-reasoned post which I agree with. But the nature of a football forum is such that we can speculate "what it is that he does wrong". I don't claim my theory is anything more than that - a theory, largely speculative - but with some foundation in the factual observations I mentioned further up the thread.


I agree, and did not in any way mean to infer that you claimed your speculation to be anything more than that. Neither did I try to belittle your arguments, or claim that you are wrong. Speculation is very welcome in my book, especially when it is based on some sort of logical thinking. My post was meant to offer my opinion on the conclusion of the speculation (not the merits of it as such), based on my personal observations (or lack thereof). It is quite good that we're not all agreeing or seeing things the same way all the time, because if we did the forum would be very uninteresting.

Offline Sting of the North

  • The Bard/Corked Hat
  • *
  • Posts: 2801
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 09:32:24 PM »
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??

If we are overrated, then maybe we are not underperforming? Or was that maybe your point (that we are underperforming in relation to unrealistic expectations)?


Offline toshes mate

  • Gentleman Jim
  • ***
  • Posts: 5779
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2019, 07:31:48 AM »
There are plenty of public incidents or events inaccurately speculated upon or reported via media or apparent witnesses to them etc., to make me certain none of us has a cat in hell's chance of being certain of the 'truth' of some situations whatever we take evidence to mean.  This uncertainty also covers more public implied criticism of players e.g. early substitutions for non-injury related reasons even when a manager explicitly criticises someone since we may not know the background behind this apparent rift.  We all see things differently and our brains are wired differently and for someone to say their brain is wired better than all the rest is a mighty dangerous game.  The football we watch meantime may show little improvement after lots of hard work, and marked improvement simply because something clicks for no reason other than a coincidence in time and wavelengths.  The art form is knowing which is which and like most art it is often a matter of taste, masterpiece or no masterpiece.

Parker does things his way and he is, like all of us, still learning.  Whether he is doing okay or not may be something to do with taste. 
     

Offline davew

  • Mr Fayed
  • **
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Managers press conference .....
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2019, 09:00:32 AM »
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??

If we are overrated, then maybe we are not underperforming? Or was that maybe your point (that we are underperforming in relation to unrealistic expectations)?
Exactly!