Sheff United, how to survive and prosper in the Premiership

[Statto]

Knockaert and Cavaleiro have been underwhelming,  although a more dynamic style will probably see better returns from both. Bobby Reid no more than a bench warmer at that level. TC is a brilliant championship midfielder but isn't indispensable ,  Mitrovic certainly can serve at the top level.

But in which case is the problem a lack of "physicality and pace"?

The two you seem most content to keep, Cairney and Mitrovic, are the slowest of the five. And are you telling me the problem with Cavaleiro, for example, is that he's not fast or strong enough?

I'm just struggling to understand how the problem is specifically "physicality and pace", rather than just players not being good enough for the PL (which IMO is inevitable for a Championship club)

[Lyle from Hangeland]

i do not agree with the OP
Obviously Sheff Utd are brilliant and have stuck to their style and it works for them but to say we would have had to play like that is in my opinion a flawed argument.

We failed because wpent a fortune on the wrong players and loanees. we played the rioght style but had the wrong director of football as we still do. if sheff utd would have had £100 to spend they would have got proper players that worked hard and complemented the way slav wanted to play. what we got were a bunch of lazy so and sos that came for a mega payday, that played for themselves not the team, were lazy, or did I say that already, and basically ripped the heart out of the team.

We went down because our owner and his son are not experienced and did not get management help of an appropriate level as MAF did on his first when he brought in Keegan to run things. That is what was wrong with us, the style was fine, wolves sort of show that but they have propermanagement, we still do not.

Disagree. No "smaller club" does brilliantly in the premiership  playing a pedestrian,  possession based style. We're not Barcelona and you need that type/calibre of player to make that style work  Wolves play a much more dynamic pace and movement based game than us. Leicester,  Bournemouth,  Watford and all other less glamorous sides with relative success at that level in recent years play with more physicality and pace  than we are likely to offer in our present form. If we try to match up against a top side in the premiership playing as we do without the quality of player needed to succeed playing that way we would get destroyed. Even if we sort our defence the way Parker favours would (in my opinion) be pulled to pieces in the top division.  It needs balance. Eddie Howe is a better example than Sean Dyche as far as what we need to aim at. Good football,  passing,  sure, but with physicality and pace.

Norwich City is kind of what we look like. They pass the ball out of the back and do a pretty good job of it. They have even beaten Man City. They might go down, but they don't look like they are out of their depth.

[Spirit of 2000]

Knockaert and Cavaleiro have been underwhelming,  although a more dynamic style will probably see better returns from both. Bobby Reid no more than a bench warmer at that level. TC is a brilliant championship midfielder but isn't indispensable ,  Mitrovic certainly can serve at the top level.

But in which case is the problem a lack of "physicality and pace"?

The two you seem most content to keep, Cairney and Mitrovic, are the slowest of the five. And are you telling me the problem with Cavaleiro, for example, is that he's not fast or strong enough?

I'm just struggling to understand how the problem is specifically "physicality and pace", rather than just players not being good enough for the PL (which IMO is inevitable for a Championship club)

I didn't say that though.  The wingers I clearly state would perform better under a more dynamic approach. Cairney I state is brilliant at this level but also say isn't indispensable,  Mitrovic has physicality in abundance and would thrive with pace around him in a more dynamic system. Also why are Sheffield United and their players including Ollie Norwood good enough to survive in the premiership given your theory?

[Andy S]

 Slow pretty stuff is too predictable. Pretty stuff ok but it has to be at speed

[colinwhite]

Whilst agreeing with points of view on both sides of this debate I think the PL is all about consistency and solid defending,for a side like us.The  arguments around pace and strength are valid but I would put in a different way. All players have to attack and all players have to defend. Sounds obvious but we not only had a lack of physicallity but we also had awhole gang of  `luxury` players. Quality in the championship may be luxury in the premiership. Schuerler, Vietto, Serri, Cairney and others had quality but couldnt do the other stuff. The graft ,tackling defending,that is needed paricularly when playing against the better sides. Sheffiel united may be 5th but they could still go down . I wouldnt bet against that ,because they lack quality.
We are talking about a league where mistakes (even in the opponents half of the pitch )are ruthlessly punished and and if you dont make the most of any opportunities yo get ,you will be buried.

[Whitestone]

The OP asks how to survive and prosper in the Premiership. It helps Immensely if you have a decent manager. Chris Wilder has worked wonders at Sheffield United with two promotions and continues to do so. Likewise Nuno Espirito Santos at Wolves is doing well. Sean Dyche at Burnley too.

[toshes mate]

It is always good to see underdogs do well, but, IMO, there is something mightily wrong with leagues that habitually have the same small groups of teams as lords over all of the rest. Indeed this can only happen, statistically speaking, when a system is rigged against randomness.  It is proof of protectionism having entered the normal casino of chance, even if the racket supporting this racket for the already rich and wealthy is cleverly disguised through randomness within the group of the chosen ones.  Upstarts can and do win, but a peep at the history tables of the PL, suggests these are rarer and rarer anomalies than chance alone would beget.

It is where all these teams may be by the end of the season that is the real test and the Blades still have a lot of fighting to do to not be in the more dangerous places in the PL.  Yesterday showed that it is the score at ninety minutes that matters and not the interim progress made during a game.  It would be much more reassuring to football health to have one or more of the Manchester, Liverpool, or 'big' London clubs tumble all the way down the pyramid and have to rebuild everything about themselves from humble beginnings.  That is what competitive sport should be once again.

[Spirit of 2000]

Whilst agreeing with points of view on both sides of this debate I think the PL is all about consistency and solid defending,for a side like us.The  arguments around pace and strength are valid but I would put in a different way. All players have to attack and all players have to defend. Sounds obvious but we not only had a lack of physicallity but we also had awhole gang of  `luxury` players. Quality in the championship may be luxury in the premiership. Schuerler, Vietto, Serri, Cairney and others had quality but couldnt do the other stuff. The graft ,tackling defending,that is needed paricularly when playing against the better sides. Sheffiel united may be 5th but they could still go down . I wouldnt bet against that ,because they lack quality.
We are talking about a league where mistakes (even in the opponents half of the pitch )are ruthlessly punished and and if you dont make the most of any opportunities yo get ,you will be buried.

You're points are very valid and our mix of too many new players and too many of those new players either luxury and lacking bottle & fight (Seri, Vietto, Schurrle etc) or just rubbish (Fosu Mensah, Le Marchand) is valid. We would have stood a better chance retaining the core of the playoff winning side, signing Norwood permanently, going all out to try and find a decent pacey right back to replace Fredericks & add another CB to the mix & someone with pace and incision on the right wing, rather than the wasted £50 mil or more used to acquire Anguissa & Seri. We may well have still come down, but certainly would have made more of a fight of it than we did. Yes all hindsight but building a unit with a chance of survival in the premiership is more than just spending ££ based on stats - it's about a blend of personalities & the collective team character. We had great team spirit in our promotion season but this was destroyed by what came next. The reliance on loans do not help us in that regard. I genuinely think last season we did & still do lack the physicality & pace to succeed if we were to go up but the lack of resilience & character is also an issue - in this regard far from defending Cairney , I think he's indicative of that malaise we suffer at times especially in his role as club captain (not saying he's not an absolute class ball playing midfielder at this level though).

[toshes mate]

You're points are very valid and our mix of too many new players and too many of those new players either luxury and lacking bottle & fight (Seri, Vietto, Schurrle etc) or just rubbish (Fosu Mensah, Le Marchand) is valid. We would have stood a better chance retaining the core of the playoff winning side, signing Norwood permanently, going all out to try and find a decent pacey right back to replace Fredericks & add another CB to the mix & someone with pace and incision on the right wing, rather than the wasted £50 mil or more used to acquire Anguissa & Seri. We may well have still come down, but certainly would have made more of a fight of it than we did. Yes all hindsight but building a unit with a chance of survival in the premiership is more than just spending ££ based on stats - it's about a blend of personalities & the collective team character. We had great team spirit in our promotion season but this was destroyed by what came next. The reliance on loans do not help us in that regard. I genuinely think last season we did & still do lack the physicality & pace to succeed if we were to go up but the lack of resilience & character is also an issue - in this regard far from defending Cairney , I think he's indicative of that malaise we suffer at times especially in his role as club captain (not saying he's not an absolute class ball playing midfielder at this level though).

I think the bit I highlight is a really excellent expression of the hows and whys of football management and where a seemingly lowly player, languishing away somewhere, is just what the doctor (head coach) ordered, since they'll be ready and willing to take a chance and prove to the doubters that all they needed was a chance.  It is that ability to scout a player so precisely that you just know he'll fit in with what you already have.  For me money is simply the thing that makes the change possible for these players of potential to have a chance.  For sure some will fail to seize the opportunity for one reason or another but the majority will not fail because these are guys who know what it means to really enjoy their day job and they relish that opportunity to want to be at work because they have missed that feeling for far too long.   

[charlieFFC]

The thing is - the next time we do get promoted (hopefully this season) - we need to setup however is needed to just avoid the drop.

With our current style and system that seems unlikely but I have hope that were we to beat the drop at the first time of asking we would be able to bring in the right players for the second season and really push on. We can't go down the route we went last time and try to buy a ready made prem squad made up of promising individuals, we need the Sheffield type performances then work on adding the quality needed to hold your own.

Its a process,

[Spirit of 2000]

The thing is - the next time we do get promoted (hopefully this season) - we need to setup however is needed to just avoid the drop.

With our current style and system that seems unlikely but I have hope that were we to beat the drop at the first time of asking we would be able to bring in the right players for the second season and really push on. We can't go down the route we went last time and try to buy a ready made prem squad made up of promising individuals, we need the Sheffield type performances then work on adding the quality needed to hold your own.

Its a process,

This reply & that from Toshes mate are right. You need a type of player, one who will relish his chance to play for you, will run himself into the ground for the cause and who will enhance a collective team spirit - not give the impression that he's doing you a favour by turning out & collecting his massive pay cheque, Seri & Schurrle being a prime example. A side is organic and needs to be pieced together, grown and added to. Once it has plateaued a couple of more expensive acquired players of the right character is brought in to push the side/club on. There are professional players of that calibre who will also run through brick walls contrary to the mercenary tag many are given - Man City & Liverpool players won't get away with jogging around looking a bit bored like Seri & Schurrle. I maintain we did and still do lack that extra ingredient of physicality & pace you need to compete in the top division when your players aren't technically as good as the ones you often face, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't still play good football. However as correctly stated - a side that survives/succeeds at that level isn't chucked together over-night - it's developed & that's what we need to be looking to do, a project rather than quick win - but there I think Tony Khan doesn't quite get it.

[charlieFFC]

The thing is - the next time we do get promoted (hopefully this season) - we need to setup however is needed to just avoid the drop.

With our current style and system that seems unlikely but I have hope that were we to beat the drop at the first time of asking we would be able to bring in the right players for the second season and really push on. We can't go down the route we went last time and try to buy a ready made prem squad made up of promising individuals, we need the Sheffield type performances then work on adding the quality needed to hold your own.

Its a process,

This reply & that from Toshes mate are right. You need a type of player, one who will relish his chance to play for you, will run himself into the ground for the cause and who will enhance a collective team spirit - not give the impression that he's doing you a favour by turning out & collecting his massive pay cheque, Seri & Schurrle being a prime example. A side is organic and needs to be pieced together, grown and added to. Once it has plateaued a couple of more expensive acquired players of the right character is brought in to push the side/club on. There are professional players of that calibre who will also run through brick walls contrary to the mercenary tag many are given - Man City & Liverpool players won't get away with jogging around looking a bit bored like Seri & Schurrle. I maintain we did and still do lack that extra ingredient of physicality & pace you need to compete in the top division when your players aren't technically as good as the ones you often face, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't still play good football. However as correctly stated - a side that survives/succeeds at that level isn't chucked together over-night - it's developed & that's what we need to be looking to do, a project rather than quick win - but there I think Tony Khan doesn't quite get it.

To be fair, like many I was really optimistic for last season in the prem based off the signings we made. But it was clear after the first five games it wasnt the approach.

Agree we really need to keep the fabric together and Tony Khan should really have a plan lined out right now of how he will approach next season should we get promoted.

This should involve signing some players in January that are prem ready if needed and identifying areas of weakness right now!

[mancwhite]

Most professional European leagues are now only going to be won from a pool of a small number of clubs. There will be occasional exceptions to this and those in the pool will change from time to time with exceptional investment (Leicester potentially) and very good player recruitment. You only have to look at Professional Rugby and their attempts to eradicate relegation to see how pernicious the impact of big money in sport can become.

It is possible that Sheffield United may get relegated but they are at the moment showing what the strength of the collective can achieve against the individualism of many over hyped players who take for granted their good fortune in being talented footballers. In addition whether you like him or not a Chris Rider has shown not only that he is an excellent man and team manager but a great tactical awareness and innovation that has improved both the team and individual players. It is early datys yet but I have been a bit disappointed about our lack innovation at corners and free kicks ( or indeed competence) that show little evidence of work on the training ground, the bedrock of a successful team.

[Statto]

If there's a novel, coherent point in this thread then I have to say, I must be totally missing it.

Just seems to be a repetition of fairly obvious gripes we've all said/heard over the last year or so.

The thread started off as a criticism of "possession football" but that point doesn't seem to have been elaborated on.

It's evolved into gripes about a lack of "physicality", "team spirit", readiness "to run through walls", "resilience" and "character". Whilst I agree we lacked those things last year, I'm quite sure that was for the obvious reason that we brought in too many new players, too late in the window, from too many different foreign leagues and/or with too many on short-term contracts. But we've been going over that for a year now. Yes it was a mistake but I see no reason to believe it will be repeated - I can't see any evidence that TK has imposed a club policy to avoid players with "resilience", for example.

As for "pace", we replaced our fast players with new signings (eg Fredericks for TFM, who IIRC was the fastest player in the PL) but they just didn't work out, for various reasons, and we've plenty of pace in the current team. So again, I see no reason to believe TK is overlooking this issue.

I agree with the residual point that we need to increase our tempo and the speed we transition from defence to attack. But I think everyone agrees on that and if we don't increase our tempo, we almost certainly won't go up anyway. Also regarding transitions, to some extent that's something we can't test until we go up, because in this division we'll inevitably spend most of most games on the front foot, and counter-attacking is far less integral to success. 

[epsomraver]

Holding on to Norwood might have helped - would have him above any of our current midfield including TC

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