Manager next season

[Statto]

This is bonkers. If we make the Play Offs he stays. Leeds have not sacked their manager ... why would we gift this disruption to our rivals.

But worth noting that the current league leaders sacked their manager last March because they were only 4th...

[Twig]

100% stick. A young coach playing modern football, learning and getting better all the time. We can't keep changing managers, we need some stability and to build an identity across all age groups as a club. We've seen much more experienced managers not do as well as Parker. His win percentage must be better than pretty much every manager since Roy?

The players love and trust him too. Think Mitro and TC would've stuck around for another manager? This is worth a lot in itself.

Lampard didn't get Derby promoted yet was rewarded with the Chelsea job where he is regarded at this point as doing a decent job. To the Parker Out brigade, careful what you wish for I say.

I want him to work, I really do. But, I have started to have the early signs of a manager just not working.

I'm keen to learn what this "modern football" you refer to, is?

We started the season playing a wholly possession based game building from the back. Unfortunately, imho it was not done very well. OK, when teams sit back and give us space but the opposition haven't been very nice at all and tend to push us high and fly into us. We are Too rigid with no variation, defensive midfielders not dropping enough to receive and then interchanging with the pushed full backs. It's all too slow and safety-first. This just leads to us being easy to overpower.

So, that's not really working, so we start to go a bit longer. That doesn't really work as their full backs cover our wide players and Mitro used so one dimensionally.

Hector does a great pass against Huddersfield that leads to a great goal. Now it appears the defence has been instructed it to give it to him to just play Hollywood passes in the hope it might work again.

If its the same stuff against Barnsley, I think that will be enough for me. Up the tempo, play forward more often, interchange up top, keep three players up top at times to make the opposition unsure when to push etc.

It's actually Joe Bryan who is the one from teh back four getting us forward and creating chances most frequently.  Hector has certainly made a difference but with Ream's distribution and Bryan's assists I don't agree that we are over-reliant on Hector.

[Twig]

I think it’s important to analyse his style and how it’s changed over time as I discuss in my other thread.

It appears it begun as a Jokanovic possession based football style, but more direct. Now I feel it’s becoming more defensive minded and I fear Parker will continue to become more and more defensive until you can no longer identify the Jokanovic traits.

Now I’m not saying it won’t be effective.. it just depends what you like turning up each week to watch..

I agree that his style seems to have changed over the course of the season, although many if his critics still argue that he only has one way of playing (a criticism that, strangely enough, was also directed at Joka). But interestingly those who tend not to support him didn't like his early season possession style and don't like his more defensive style so whatever he has done they haven't enjoyed turning up to watch his teams.

I just think that as usual there are a lot on here who are entrenched in their views.  Probably that's human nature.

[Jim©]

He has taken a team which was 2nd favourites for promotion 7 months ago and turned them into a team which is 4th favourites for promotion

You and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

[toshes mate]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

[Jim©]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

I'm not sure what the Khan's and Parker were meant to say. I'm sure Stoke's manager said it at the beginning of this season? Again I really don't think that can be used as a stick to beat Parker with?
You say about SJ, but he was supported, especially when he went public with his "I need" this that or the other. He was invested to the tune of £100m + on promotion. I loved the way we played in the Championship and that run was sensational but his win % was 44. (Parker's is 58% with as many games managed in the prem).

[Statto]

You and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

I didn't say anything suggesting I view it as a "guarantee" and can confirm for the avoidance of doubt that I don't. I view it as the combined opinion of thousands of punters, including many professional sports gamblers, people with inside information and various other experts. Of course experts get things wrong but when there's near consensus among many of them, they're generally right. And indeed, their predicted top 3 in the Championship this season was Leeds, Fulham and West Brom.

[toshes mate]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

I'm not sure what the Khan's and Parker were meant to say. I'm sure Stoke's manager said it at the beginning of this season? Again I really don't think that can be used as a stick to beat Parker with?
You say about SJ, but he was supported, especially when he went public with his "I need" this that or the other. He was invested to the tune of £100m + on promotion. I loved the way we played in the Championship and that run was sensational but his win % was 44. (Parker's is 58% with as many games managed in the prem).

Jokanovic had been marginalised by the Khans around October of the promotion season, and was not involved in recruitment period (TK's video summer last year).  Jokanovic's 'I need' (to quote you) was met with Martin's loan signing on deadline day in TK's first window as DoF, no replacement for Malone or Martin in TK's second summer, and a hat full of whimsy in TK's first PL summer window.  SJ was then victimised for TK's failure.  The only real upsides for Jokanovic were the signings of Targett and Mitro (fortuitously).  TK claims Parker is involved in recruitment and so their is a heavier burden upon him to be successful.  As I said before any football fan will tell you that performance is everything that keeps you coming back especially when you can get it on a realistic budget.  If the Khans had trusted Jokanovic then would we be in the position we are in this season or would we be in the PL having consolidated last season?  It's a question that no one can answer and is the main reason I'd fear about the Khans looking for someone better than Parker because chance alone says another Jokanovic won't come along anytime soon.     

[Jim©]

You and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

I didn't say anything suggesting I view it as a "guarantee" and can confirm for the avoidance of doubt that I don't. I view it as the combined opinion of thousands of punters, including many professional sports gamblers, people with inside information and various other experts. Of course experts get things wrong but when there's near consensus among many of them, they're generally right. And indeed, their predicted top 3 in the Championship this season was Leeds, Fulham and West Brom.

But you're saying they're generally right when they're not. Top 3 championship and Premier they've got right (thus far), but div 1 and 2 they've got wrong and Stoke is laughably wrong.
It was your insistence that somehow Parker has spoiled a team that was definitely going to finish 2nd (and to this point they're 3rd, hardly a punishable offence).

[Jim©]

It's a question that no one can answer and is the main reason I'd fear about the Khans looking for someone better than Parker because chance alone says another Jokanovic won't come along anytime soon.     

I 100% agree with you on that point. If we were struggling at the foot of the table I'd go along with the seemingly anti-Parker feeling, but we're in the mix to go straight back up which is a considerable achievement, regardless of squad.

[bill taylors apprentice]

As said earlier, its not a science but it cannot be disputed we assembled a team to win automatic promotion and we are slightly below par right now.

I can't prove it, but I think Parker had more influence on building this squad than the previous HC so we can't blame the owners for not giving him the tools for the job, although failing to sign Hector at the start was a big error.

Parker is often heard saying stuff like, "If we can't win it, we don't want to lose it" and this Fulham team has improved this aspect of the game recently.
But he also regularly says we needed to be "braver on the ball" and I interpret this as, make runs off the ball,  move the ball quicker and be more adventurous in the final third.

I believe the players have gone some way to solving the first issue at the determent of the other, and are now not able to change gear and make things happen going forward.

The HC must find a way to encourage the players to be more dynamic in attack but I can't believe he's not doing this so its the players who must take part of the blame for this.

He needs time to see the best of him as a HC.

[Statto]

But you're saying they're generally right when they're not.

PL top two are as per bookies' predictions.
Championship top 3 are as per bookies' predictions.
League one predicted top 4 (Sunderland, Ipswich, Portsmouth and Rotherham - https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/sky-bet-efl-201920-season-guide/169389) are all in the top 7
League two I have no idea what was predicted and would suggest (as the trend above shows) these things get less accurate as you go down the leagues and have less expert coverage.

Are they universally right? No.
Are they "generally" (ie, in most cases) right? Yes, irrefutably.

It was your insistence that somehow Parker has spoiled a team that was definitely going to finish 2nd (and to this point they're 3rd, hardly a punishable offence).

Please stop accusing me of using words like "guaranteed" and "definitely". I appreciate it can be tempting when it feels like you're losing an argument to pretend the other person said something that makes it easier for you to demonstrate they're wrong, but in the end it just undermines your own argument.

To repeat, I treat bookies' pre-season odds as expert opinion which is generally correct (and where they're not, that's generally indicative of poor management). 

I suggest you also scroll up the thread and note that I only said we should (in my opinion, which last time I checked I was entitled to) sack Parker if we get less than 80pts. That would probably mean finishing about a 5th or 6th. If we're in 3rd or 4th, whilst that would be disappointing against pre-season expectations, I'd keep Parker.

That's also a more generous approach than West Brom took with Moore last year. 

[ByTheRiver]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

I'm not sure what the Khan's and Parker were meant to say. I'm sure Stoke's manager said it at the beginning of this season? Again I really don't think that can be used as a stick to beat Parker with?
You say about SJ, but he was supported, especially when he went public with his "I need" this that or the other. He was invested to the tune of £100m + on promotion. I loved the way we played in the Championship and that run was sensational but his win % was 44. (Parker's is 58% with as many games managed in the prem).

Jokanovic had been marginalised by the Khans around October of the promotion season, and was not involved in recruitment period (TK's video summer last year).  Jokanovic's 'I need' (to quote you) was met with Martin's loan signing on deadline day in TK's first window as DoF, no replacement for Malone or Martin in TK's second summer, and a hat full of whimsy in TK's first PL summer window.  SJ was then victimised for TK's failure.  The only real upsides for Jokanovic were the signings of Targett and Mitro (fortuitously).  TK claims Parker is involved in recruitment and so their is a heavier burden upon him to be successful.  As I said before any football fan will tell you that performance is everything that keeps you coming back especially when you can get it on a realistic budget.  If the Khans had trusted Jokanovic then would we be in the position we are in this season or would we be in the PL having consolidated last season?  It's a question that no one can answer and is the main reason I'd fear about the Khans looking for someone better than Parker because chance alone says another Jokanovic won't come along anytime soon.     

A truly excellent post. I can't agree enough. Jokanovic really wasn't treated very well at all. Which is ironic, given that he was chased for a while and, if we are being honest, has been the only decent managerial appointment the owners have made.

[Woolly Mammoth]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

I'm not sure what the Khan's and Parker were meant to say. I'm sure Stoke's manager said it at the beginning of this season? Again I really don't think that can be used as a stick to beat Parker with?
You say about SJ, but he was supported, especially when he went public with his "I need" this that or the other. He was invested to the tune of £100m + on promotion. I loved the way we played in the Championship and that run was sensational but his win % was 44. (Parker's is 58% with as many games managed in the prem).

Jokanovic had been marginalised by the Khans around October of the promotion season, and was not involved in recruitment period (TK's video summer last year).  Jokanovic's 'I need' (to quote you) was met with Martin's loan signing on deadline day in TK's first window as DoF, no replacement for Malone or Martin in TK's second summer, and a hat full of whimsy in TK's first PL summer window.  SJ was then victimised for TK's failure.  The only real upsides for Jokanovic were the signings of Targett and Mitro (fortuitously).  TK claims Parker is involved in recruitment and so their is a heavier burden upon him to be successful.  As I said before any football fan will tell you that performance is everything that keeps you coming back especially when you can get it on a realistic budget.  If the Khans had trusted Jokanovic then would we be in the position we are in this season or would we be in the PL having consolidated last season?  It's a question that no one can answer and is the main reason I'd fear about the Khans looking for someone better than Parker because chance alone says another Jokanovic won't come along anytime soon.     

A truly excellent post. I can't agree enough. Jokanovic really wasn't treated very well at all. Which is ironic, given that he was chased for a while and, if we are being honest, has been the only decent managerial appointment the owners have made.

and who ended up sacking Jokanovic ?

[Maidstone Lee]

[Statto] and others seem to view pre-season betting as some sort of "guarantee" that we will finish in that spot. It was merely an educated guess from an industry that get plenty wrong. For example their pre-season favourites for Div 1 were Pompey and Sunderland, now in 5th and 6th place respectively. Their pre-season favourites in Div 2 were Bradford and Salford, now in 9th and 11th place. Stoke were joint 4th favourites for Championship, now in 21st position (and were the favourites last season).

A manager doesn't "turn them into a team that" is X favourite for promotion because there's so many other different forces that will effect that; recruitment, injuries, momentum, luck, squad stabiility etc. Of course they have a huge input but it's way too simplistic to claim that manager can turn a 4th favourite into a 7th favourite.

Mmm, wasn't it the Khans and Parker who said we are going for automatic promotion?  And didn't that reverberate around these threads as in 'what a team' in celebration of the signings of the summer?  We cannot run the season with someone else but Jokanovic wasn't given anywhere near the support that Parker has been given at any time during his period at FFC.  I am more disappointed with performance values than I am with position in table because I think we could have done better spending less.  Sadly I cannot prove it but neither can you disprove it.

I'm not sure what the Khan's and Parker were meant to say. I'm sure Stoke's manager said it at the beginning of this season? Again I really don't think that can be used as a stick to beat Parker with?
You say about SJ, but he was supported, especially when he went public with his "I need" this that or the other. He was invested to the tune of £100m + on promotion. I loved the way we played in the Championship and that run was sensational but his win % was 44. (Parker's is 58% with as many games managed in the prem).

Jokanovic had been marginalised by the Khans around October of the promotion season, and was not involved in recruitment period (TK's video summer last year).  Jokanovic's 'I need' (to quote you) was met with Martin's loan signing on deadline day in TK's first window as DoF, no replacement for Malone or Martin in TK's second summer, and a hat full of whimsy in TK's first PL summer window.  SJ was then victimised for TK's failure.  The only real upsides for Jokanovic were the signings of Targett and Mitro (fortuitously).  TK claims Parker is involved in recruitment and so their is a heavier burden upon him to be successful.  As I said before any football fan will tell you that performance is everything that keeps you coming back especially when you can get it on a realistic budget.  If the Khans had trusted Jokanovic then would we be in the position we are in this season or would we be in the PL having consolidated last season?  It's a question that no one can answer and is the main reason I'd fear about the Khans looking for someone better than Parker because chance alone says another Jokanovic won't come along anytime soon.     

A truly excellent post. I can't agree enough. Jokanovic really wasn't treated very well at all. Which is ironic, given that he was chased for a while and, if we are being honest, has been the only decent managerial appointment the owners have made.

+1 

[Maidstone Lee]

I think if we end up finishing outside the play-off's then Parker will have to go. Will be another Bracewell/Wilkins situation. If he takes us up then he should get his shot at leading us in the Premier League.

[I Ronic]

In everyone of these should we shouldn't we arguments SJ is brought up to show the errors the Khans have made and Scott Parkers weaknesses. So if the club was so wrong to let him go why hasn't anybody else of note picked him up?
We're third and equal on points with second. If automatic promotion is the aim then we're on target for that (as are several other teams). If some are going to persist with comparisons between Scott and SJ then at least remember his line "I only look one game ahead."

[toshes mate]

In everyone of these should we shouldn't we arguments SJ is brought up to show the errors the Khans have made and Scott Parkers weaknesses. So if the club was so wrong to let him go why hasn't anybody else of note picked him up?
We're third and equal on points with second. If automatic promotion is the aim then we're on target for that (as are several other teams). If some are going to persist with comparisons between Scott and SJ then at least remember his line "I only look one game ahead."

You'd have to ask SJ 'why hasn't anybody else of note picked him up' (the cheapest shot in your armoury I do sincerely hope) but a more relevant and more pertinent question would be 'why was he coaching in Israel after his success at Watford'?  If some persist in finding comparisons with Parker irksome then that may be down to their fear of the absence of legitimate counter argument.  I defend SJ with facts as evidence and I was even polite enough not to point out why SJ was marginalised at all because there are more than two potential and possible reasons but I have no proof of correlation other than the time of year.  I rather suspect TK found SJ's professionalism to be immune to TK's 'adore me' personality and it was not as good a relationship as it could and should have been.  As for SJ quotes I think his team's football said all we needed to know about him.  More's the pity that the Khans didn't get that at all. 

[Jim©]

Please stop accusing me of using words like "guaranteed" and "definitely". I appreciate it can be tempting when it feels like you're losing an argument to pretend the other person said something that makes it easier for you to demonstrate they're wrong, but in the end it just undermines your own argument.

i didn't accuse you of anything, calm yourself down a little. I see it as a debate not an argument, perhaps why you're getting so heated.
I stand by what I said and you've yet to respond with anything that answers it; you seem to be inferring that Parker has spoiled a team that was (according to bookmakers who are not always correct) going to finish 2nd. I don't understand that point of view.

[Statto]

Please stop accusing me of using words like "guaranteed" and "definitely". I appreciate it can be tempting when it feels like you're losing an argument to pretend the other person said something that makes it easier for you to demonstrate they're wrong, but in the end it just undermines your own argument.

i didn't accuse you of anything, calm yourself down a little. I see it as a debate not an argument, perhaps why you're getting so heated.
I stand by what I said and you've yet to respond with anything that answers it; you seem to be inferring that Parker has spoiled a team that was (according to bookmakers who are not always correct) going to finish 2nd. I don't understand that point of view.

"you're saying [bookies] are generally right when they're not" = demonstrably wrong
"[you are insisting] Parker has spoiled a team that was definitely going to finish 2nd" = patently wrong
"I see it as a debate not an argument" = they're synonyms
"I don't understand" = clearly!
End of argument/discussion.