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Tony Khan interview...

Started by General, June 19, 2020, 03:44:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ALG01

Quote from: AnOldBrownie on June 23, 2020, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 19, 2020, 05:00:03 PM
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job.  He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players.  Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out.  He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet another step in the right direction.  The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.

In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.

:plus one:

Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM

just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.

when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.

And here we go talking about the owners not speaking the language of football correctly.

You seriously want to have a tiff about the owner's language?    At least he's not being phoney when he speaks.  I have way more problem with his free use of the word "uhm" all of the time.

as i responded in a similar manner to another poster

You obviously are struggling with what I said. I suggested it was a pity that americans do not use the same venacular as us with regard to our game. There is no need for them to try and re-invent the language of football. If they had been really interested and watched British football for years they would be familiar with and use our terminology as a maytter of course, and respect us enough to stick with it. If I watched US sports I was use their language.... it was a an observation that has been on my mind for ages and if you  misinterpret that is not my problem, I said americans and because of the interview mentioned him as he was the last one I heard, it is like the many summarisers they have on US TV which I sometimes watch.

i accept he (TK) is passionate and his heart is in the right place my quarrel with him is he is unsuited to the post and if he was less aggogant, would simply step aside and let a proper profesional do his job. the language thing, as I said was an aside.

Jims Dentist

Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time.
Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players.
Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

The Rational Fan

#22
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.

University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.


FPT

Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time.
Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players.
Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'm reading 'Soccernomics' at the moment, and in there they say the money spent on transfers only correlates to something like 16% of league positions whereas the money spent on wages is something like 90%. An interesting idea, they admit that obviously if you double the wages of average players they don't think performance increases, more so higher pay attracts better quality, I think the example they used was Chelsea can afford to have Eden Hazard on a weekly basis, where they wouldn't be the case of Burnley.

It's an interesting book so far with some intriguing ideas. Initially published in 2009, it's since been updated in 2018 which is the copy I'm reading and they appear to be addressing questions of the original release.

Thought it seemed apt to just pop this in here.

Forever Fulham

What can anyone say about billionaires' children?  Their futures always made easy, the path secure.  Something for junior to play with, stay occupied, have a sense of purpose.  Was his appointment earned?  Did he have a stellar back/front office football background?  Of course not.  Did he, like his father, ever invent anything?  Slave away at academics and then mix his knowledge base with a true entrepreneurial spirit, and through hard work, dedication, and probably several failures, become the Great Success?  Or do these 'sons of' ever grasp that their sophistication for the job they are given by their fathers is lacking, that they need to be seen, not heard, and delegate discreet authority to those who are better equipped to carry out club responsibilities?

Likeability is all fine and good.  But we all know it's not nearly enough.
I know, I know--we should say nothing about the elephant in the room because God knows as children of very rich go, he's not driving the club and team into a ditch.   Well, if that's our standard for comparison, then let's just settle for staying top 6 in the Championship for years to come. 



Jims Dentist

Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.

University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved.
I know there is in The Championship.
So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.




The Rational Fan

#26
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.

University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.

I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.

We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.

I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.

The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).

I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".

While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.

Jims Dentist

Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.

University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.

I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.

We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.

I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.

The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).

I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".

While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".

The Rational Fan

#28
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".

I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.

Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.

2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.

3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.

4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.

The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.

5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.

Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.

We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.

Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.


Statto

Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.

Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.

I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.

University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.

I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.

We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.

I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.

The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).

I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".

While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".


Well for the three-year period to the end of this season, under FFP he's been entitled to pour in £61m. That's £61m from his own pocket, on top of our TV money, parachute payments etc. And that's in addition to whatever he's paying to build the Riverside Stand. And it may well be increased to allow for the economic impact of COVID-19 on football. So it's not as if "pouring money in" necessarily leads to an FFP breach. He can pour a f***load of money in, give us a great team, a new stand, economic security and promotion, all without breaching FFP. 

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".

I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.

Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.

2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.

3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.

4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.

The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.

5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.

Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.

We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.

Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.


First and foremost build a fully qualified Director of Football.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

The Rational Fan

#31
Quote from: Statto on June 29, 2020, 10:15:54 AM

Well for the three-year period to the end of this season, under FFP he's been entitled to pour in £61m. That's £61m from his own pocket, on top of our TV money, parachute payments etc. And that's in addition to whatever he's paying to build the Riverside Stand. And it may well be increased to allow for the economic impact of COVID-19 on football. So it's not as if "pouring money in" necessarily leads to an FFP breach. He can pour a f***load of money in, give us a great team, a new stand, economic security and promotion, all without breaching FFP.

If Tony Khan runs out of ideas, just buy as many players as possible from the "under 18 England squad" with £100m (probably 25 players) and sign them on five-year contracts. Most of them will lose money as they will flop, which can be written off as youth development costs, while others will be sold to make profits that can be used to buy other players.

Most grounds have some costs for ground repairs that probably need to be included in FFP cost, but if you upgrade a stand that cost is exempt even though it may mean many years of no (or minimum) maintenance costs. My guess is this new stand has all maintenance cost built into the building contract cost, as in pay £100m for the stand (which is FFP exempt) get free maintenance.

Any long-term investment that improves football is basically FFP exempt, but any short-term revenue from the investment can be used to buy players. FFP can delays the impact of money potentially by several years, but it cannot stop the impact forever.

The EFL knows football clubs know clubs will be built bigger grounds, build training facilitates and invest in youth development to get themselves more money to invest in their squad. They can stop a club buying a premier league squad, but they cannot stop a new club building a premier league squad from stratch.

If the money pours in year after year after year, no one can stop the Khans being a premier league team. Having a DOF that is learning football and a coach that the latest ex-footballer to turn coach might slow things down a little, but the only thing that can stop this is the Khans losing interest.


alfie

Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't

ALG01

Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.

We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent  is nonsensical

alfie

Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.

We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent  is nonsensical
Funny how all us supporters are all professional, we are so arrogant, unless you are with him you have no idea what/when and why things are done.
If you listen to Gordon Davis, he was saying as soon as the play off final was finished they were on the phone trying to tie up deals, but clubs weren't playing ball, making buyers wait until last minute, he explained the Hector problem and it wasn't down to Fulham, but I guess it's easy to throw accusations around when we don't actually know.
Look not trying to be rude mate, but I just find it so frustrating when things are said without knowing the full facts.
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't


Jims Dentist

Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".

I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.

Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.

2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.

3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.

4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.

The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.

5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.

Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.

We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.

Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.

So what your saying is totally ignore/flout FFP taking steps to confuse the regulators.
There have been a number of clubs that have tried this only to fall fowl.
In all of your above proposals you are assuming  that Shahid is prepared to keep on investing ridiculous amounts.
At the end of the day his business head would likely prevent this.


The Rational Fan

#36
Quote from: Jims Dentist on July 02, 2020, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".

I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.

Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.

2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.

3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.

4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.

The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.

5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.

Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.

We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.

Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.

So what your saying is totally ignore/flout FFP taking steps to confuse the regulators.
There have been a number of clubs that have tried this only to fall fowl.
In all of your above proposals you are assuming  that Shahid is prepared to keep on investing ridiculous amounts. At the end of the day his business head would likely prevent this.

The FFP relegation has been, in theory, been put in place to prevent clubs going bankrupt and prevent owners from financial doping their clubs to achieve temporary success at the expense of football. Investing equity in building stadiums (suggestion 1) and youth academies (suggestion 1) provides a very sustainable future for the club being good for football.

So these ways of getting ahead, will not be seen by the courts as flouting FFP rules even though other clubs see anyone getting ahead though investment as flouting FFP rules (as hate any club getting ahead).

I guess my suggestions 3 and 4 are flouting the rules, but all very hard to prove. As for suggestion 5, it is clearly flouting the rules but 20 clubs in the championship are doing it so its almost excepted.

You are correct, if Shahid Khan cannot get into the premier league with parachute payments then other methods would take an insane amount of money because it wouldn't be directly on players but on academies, faciltitates and stadiums. I guess if we don't get promoted soon, Shahid Khan may be happy being mid-table championship and we may never get in the premier league again.

Whether we get back into the premier league depend on how much Shaid Khan is willing to invest and how we invest it. If he losses interest, we will never go up again. If he maintains investment and willing to lose 10% of his sons inheritance (or £300m+ over years) to do it, there is no way we cannot get back.

If he is willing to invest in the stadium, youth, training facilitates, statistics recruitment; the investment might be almost self-sustaining once established in the premier league (something MAF never achieved).

Jims Dentist

In my humble opinion suggestions 3,4 and 5 would not be tolerated by the powers that be.


AnOldBrownie

#38
Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn%u2019t know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.

We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent  is nonsensical
What is your barometer to say he doesn't perform as well as most of the DoF in the championship? Name 5 currently in the Championship you'd rather have?

His being incompetent at his job is purely subjective opinion with very little fact to support it.

We're currently looking to hopefully finish with close to 80 points again this year, with essentially a manager as green as the DoF.   Let's say we finish with 78 points.

With Tony Khan as DOF Fulham have finished their Championship seasons with 80 points, 88 points and 78 points.    Look at their league points prior to TK being in charge.

Look at how the team performed from 2002-2016.   You think TK is incompetent?

Compare him to the Brentford DOF since 2017.   In that time this is the first season where Brentford will have more points than Fulham...and we don't even know if Brentford will finish the current season above us.   Yet, you're going to say their DoF is better because of the value they get with their players?

How are Hull, Huddersfield and Cardiff doing?  Are their DoF trending upwards or downwards?  Milwall?  Derby?  Forest?

You don't have to like him, but we can do MUCH worse than having him...as Fulham fans should know full well.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to learn...but if he does learn can you imagine how good the club will be?

Sent from my CMR-W19 using Tapatalk

The Rational Fan

#39
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2020, 03:43:03 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn%u2019t know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.

We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent  is nonsensical
What is your barometer to say he doesn't perform as well as most of the DoF in the championship? Name 5 currently in the Championship you'd rather have?

His being incompetent at his job is purely subjective opinion with very little fact to support it.

We're currently looking to hopefully finish with close to 80 points again this year, with essentially a manager as green as the DoF.   Let's say we finish with 78 points.

With Tony Khan as DOF Fulham have finished their Championship seasons with 80 points, 88 points and 78 points.    Look at their league points prior to TK being in charge.

Look at how the team performed from 2002-2016.   You think TK is incompetent?

Compare him to the Brentford DOF since 2017.   In that time this is the first season where Brentford will have more points than Fulham...and we don't even know if Brentford will finish the current season above us.   Yet, you're going to say their DoF is better because of the value they get with their players?

You don't have to like him, but we can do MUCH worse than having him...as Fulham fans should know full well. I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to learn...but if he does learn can you imagine how good the club will be?

I know ex-football pundits (like Ian Wright) have launched an all-out attack on Tony Khan, but those attacks are mostly self-interested because they want ex-footballers in every position in football and if TK is component then maybe amateur footballers could do other roles like pundits.

But every Fulham DOF/Manager (since Micky Adams) that has been here 18 months or more has produced a financial loss and never once returned a pound to the owner, the financial figures are in the link below. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03374347/filing-history

MAF had eight managers (including Keegan, Bracewell, Tigana, Coleman, Sanchez, Hodgson, Hughes, and Martin Jol) that were all total failures financial and most had bigger percentage losses than Tony Khan. The last managers to do better than Tony Khan financially are Alan Dicks, Don Mackay, Ian Bradfoot, and Micky Adams, but that was only achieved by paying players the same as the cleaners.

Tony Khan's 14.6% loss in 18/19 (first season up), doesn't seem so bad compared to a) Tigana 103% loss in 2001/02 (first season up), b) Colemans 41% loss in 2005/06, c) Hodson's 22% loss in 2009/10, or d) Martin Jols 23.7% loss in 2011/12.

As for getting out of what is now the Championship, Tony Khan's 126% loss in 17/18 seems like a genius DOF, when compared to Tigana's 242% loss in 2000/01. But frankly, under Tigana there was no FFP so no one cared about money and failed to realise that we have never been good at spending it. Despite Tigana being a totally financial disaster, the football was beautiful, we got up, its my not money and MAF seemed to enjoy spending it in what would have been hard times for him.

In the end, Shahid Khan is probably willing to accept that Tony Khan has been a financial failure like every one of MAFs DOF; the question is what does he do next. I honestly don't believe any DOF can make this club profitable.

As Shahid Khan is just giving some DOF money for him to lose, so surely the question for SK is not "how much he losses?", but "Giving money to which DOF gives the most joy for the cost?". SK probably gets the most joy from giving this DOF all the money FFP will allow and if he doesn that year after year, we will get back into the premier league eventually.

Alternatively, if TK resigns it will be harder for us to keep losing more and more money, which we will have to do to get into premier league, because no DOF can breakeven financially and get us up. In truth, I don't know what Fulham will look like without TK, but things could be so much worse. And, given TKs unique ability to work with the owner, if he learns more we could be hard to stop.