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All of this Change the Manager talk

Started by ChesterTheTabby, July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

RaySmith

#20
But Parker has a lifetime of experience in the game.

He can't be as incompetent as  folk on here say.

Both Slav and Ranieri, who had won the Prem, couldn't get as good results as Parker got in the Prem with the same players - he came in and steadied the ship, and was popular with  fans and players, that's why he  got the job.

But this is a results driven business, and he needs to produce to keep his job, but seems to be doing all right so far, attaining a play-off place. but we shall see what happens for the rest of the season.

Look at Huddersfield, now facing relegation again, and many on here were saying their  previous manager should have been given the Fulham job.

ByTheRiver

Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.

1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.

All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.

2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time.



*with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined

colcliff

While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams  changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers  fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded


Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.

If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.

I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.

No No and Thrice no, he has made far far bigger mistakes than that.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 11:15:53 AM
While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams  changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers  fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded

The voice of reason.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Penfold

Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 11:15:53 AM
While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams  changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers  fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded

I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.

With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?

It's the sad state of modern football.


alfie

Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 10:53:44 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.

If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.

I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.

How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.

Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.

So why do teams bother to change managers? Why do teams bother with Pep or Klopp when some guy who manages the local pub team would do it cheaper?

Coaches change players. For good and for bad. Systems changes players for good and for bad. There is literally hundreds of examples and lots of FUlham ones I've listed over the last few months but lets go with the most recent and glaring example. Gary Neville said this last week.

"Klopp makes £30mil players perform like £130mil players. Whereas there are some in these league who have £130mil players playing like £30mil players".

The power of coaching and managing.

If its just a case of picking them in their right position, maybe trying out a couple of positions, and the rest is down to them, we could do it. And, I don't know about you, but I'd do it for free for my beloved Fulham (just in case you're reading and want to save a few quid, Tony!).

Utter nonsense. This is all on Parker.
So Bobby.D.C fluffs his shot in front of goal and somehow that's Parker's fault? Surely that's down to the player.  B.D.C probably does all the time in training.
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't

The Rational Fan

Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 11:10:53 AM
Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.

1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.

All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.

2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time. *with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined

The voice of reason a good coach is one that makes every young player better faster and extends the career peak of every older player.

Sting of the North

Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 12:04:49 PM
Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 11:10:53 AM
Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.

1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.

All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.

2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time. *with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined

The voice of reason a good coach is one that makes every young player better faster and extends the career peak of every older player.

Disagree, because the focus should not be on the individual players. A good coach is one that gets the players at hand to perform as a unit which will have the side effect of the individual players performing well. In my opinion.


Luka

Answering the question of would I have taken 4th at this point ?
Yes would have been my aswer.
But I never thought back then that despite being in a promotion scrap, in the top five and chasing automatic promotion it would be so unxciting and plain dull to watch.
That is 100% the down to the manager and his brand of football.
He is a lucky man to have an elite group of players at his disposal. Without thier quality the brand of football he promotes would have even a good championship squad in a relegation scrap.

 

Statto

Quote from: Penfold on July 02, 2020, 11:47:16 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.

With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?

I agree with this too.

The answer for me depends on how likely it is that he'll improve, and how quickly.

Some ex-players (in fact, I'd say a majority) just do not have the inherent 'nous' to ever become a good manager. With Symons, lovely bloke, but you could just see he was never in a million years going to develop into an authoritative tactical genius. With Parker, sometimes he comes across as lacking acuity IMO but I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's shown an admirable ability to squeeze points out of relatively poor performances, which shows some cunning.

But overall, the football we play, and confidence with which we play, have not improved at all this season, despite him having had almost a full season on the training pitch. We look no better in those respects than we did in August. So if we don't go up this year, it's hard to see us improving and romping the league with Parker next year.

ALG01

I used to take the view, and still do...

On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).

Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.

The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.

Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).

the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing.  However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the  managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes.  On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.

I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division.  I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.


ALG01

Quote from: Statto on July 01, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season?

No.

And we are 5th now.

I agree I would not have taken it. From where we were last season and the players we brought in, I think we should have reasonably expected to be in the top two, or within a point or two.

The Rational Fan

#33
Quote from: Statto on July 02, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 02, 2020, 11:47:16 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.

With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?

I agree with this too. The answer for me depends on how likely it is that he'll improve, and how quickly.

Some ex-players (in fact, I'd say a majority) just do not have the inherent 'nous' to ever become a good manager. With Symons, lovely bloke, but you could just see he was never in a million years going to develop into an authoritative tactical genius. With Parker, sometimes he comes across as lacking acuity IMO but I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's shown an admirable ability to squeeze points out of relatively poor performances, which shows some cunning.

But overall, the football we play, and confidence with which we play, have not improved at all this season, despite him having had almost a full season on the training pitch. We look no better in those respects than we did in August. So if we don't go up this year, it's hard to see us improving and romping the league with Parker next year.

Our parachute payments will be over by the time Parker learns his trade. Once, Parker learns his trade he'll want a job in the premier league and move on to somewhere like Spurs.

Parker played football for six clubs and played his worst football for Fulham. His coaching career will be exactly the same. He'll coach six clubs with his worst coaching mistakes all made at Fulham.

Parker left his boyhood club Charlton that was coming 7th in the premier league because he wanted to play at a better club. If he performs well, he will look for a better club to coach than Fulham.

colcliff

You say if Parker does well he will move on
Is that not the same as the players and anyone else if you get a chance to better yourself and earn more would not most of us do that.
And if he does improve so that other clubs want him then that would mean Fulham have improved so that's a win win situation
Young players come in and make mistakes and we say well he's still learning
Young mangers make mistakes and we say sack them
Don't forget all the best managers were young once and had to learn their trade, but that's ok as long as it's not at our club
Some manager's especially young ones can find the transition from player to manager difficult, they still think like a player and want to be a Pal rather than a tyrant and some players use this to their advantage
And it takes a while to get that happy medium between the two
I think Scott may  suffers from this . He may have the players backing because he isn't one of the hard managers


The Rational Fan

#35
Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 01:35:09 PM
You say if Parker does well he will move on. Is that not the same as the players and anyone else if you get a chance to better yourself and earn more would not most of us do that. And if he does improve so that other clubs want him then that would mean Fulham have improved so that's a win win situation. Young players come in and make mistakes and we say well he's still learning. Young mangers make mistakes and we say sack them. Don't forget all the best managers were young once and had to learn their trade, but that's ok as long as it's not at our club. Some manager's especially young ones can find the transition from player to manager difficult, they still think like a player and want to be a Pal rather than a tyrant and some players use this to their advantage. And it takes a while to get that happy medium between the two . I think Scott may  suffers from this . He may have the players backing because he isn't one of the hard managers

The coaching appointment at Fulham helps Parkers' future, but how does it help our future. A team that doesn't get promoted the first season on average take nine years to get back to the premier league. Without parachute payments, we could easily take a decade to get back up. In 12 months  time, we will have the same budget as QPR, Blackburn, Hull and Sheffield Wednesday.

colcliff

The reason I say if Parker does well the team does well
Is that people were saying if Parker does well he will move to spurs
And on the whole managers move to better clubs because they have been successful  which would mean the team has been successful , so surely that helps us
And if by some chance we should get promoted this year would the Parker out people get off his back I think not, they would find another reason
I feel that there are many who did not like Parker as a player and this has continued into his managerial appointment

john dempsey

Rodak. Hector. Reed. Cairney. Mitrovich.
that is a very decent spine of a team in this league.
so we at least(win , lose, or draw.) should be seeing
some exciting football.



Dr Quinzel

Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.

Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.

The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.

COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.

Rant complete.

- Mike

No, I wouldn't have done.

And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.

Matt10

Quote from: ALG01 on July 02, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I used to take the view, and still do...

On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).

Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.

The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.

Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).

the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing.  However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the  managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes.  On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.

I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division.  I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.

This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.

Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.

I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.

I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...

I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.

Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.