Author Topic: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order  (Read 1737 times)

Offline Craven_Chris

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 01:05:30 PM »

The danger at present seems to be that the claim are so keen not to repeat the mistakes of 18/19, that they have gone too far the other way and will leave us with a squad that is not good enough for any manager to achieve survival with.

I think this is really important, the challenge is to build a Premier League squad - we spent £120mn two seasons ago on 7 players, many of whom are yet to demonstrate that they can perform to a good premier league level, and some of whom have shown quite clearly that this task may be beyond them. The problem was not spending £120mn (which is an entirely reasonable amount to spend upgrading a Premier League squad), its how it was done that was the issue.

Offline The Rock

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 01:14:42 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

Offline ByTheRiver

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 01:27:43 PM »

The danger at present seems to be that the claim are so keen not to repeat the mistakes of 18/19, that they have gone too far the other way and will leave us with a squad that is not good enough for any manager to achieve survival with.

I think this is really important, the challenge is to build a Premier League squad - we spent £120mn two seasons ago on 7 players, many of whom are yet to demonstrate that they can perform to a good premier league level, and some of whom have shown quite clearly that this task may be beyond them. The problem was not spending £120mn (which is an entirely reasonable amount to spend upgrading a Premier League squad), its how it was done that was the issue.

100%.


Offline Sting of the North

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 03:24:36 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

Offline Lyle from Hangeland

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2020, 04:24:24 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

Many fans don't think. It is what it is.

I do think TK should change his role at the club and give a real football person the title of DoF.

Online Jim©

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2020, 05:00:07 PM »

So how did Sheff Utd do regards the FFP Rules? Did they break the Rules to enable them to finish 9th. Sheff Utd faltered slightly at the end of the season, they could easily of finished higher. With the Sheff Utd example, teams can flourish within the FFP Rules. Yes they are unfair, but Sheff Utd has done well within the Rules.
 

People have this idea that sheffield United spent nothing. They spent over £70m.

They spent £64m, 'who has this idea they spent nothing?' Was their spending within the FFP Rules?

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sheffield-united/transfers/verein/350/plus/0?saison_id=2019&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Loads of people do- there were a lot of paper articles at the time saying "wilder does it on a shoestring" or words to that effect.
10% out, according to transfermarkt?  The same transfermarkt that said we got over £4m for David Button?


Offline Statto

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2020, 05:50:15 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

The thing about having a director of football whose entire knowledge of the game is derived from about five years of part-time work, is it's quite conceivable (actually IMO probable) that some fans would be able to do a better job than him.

Offline Sting of the North

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 06:03:50 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

The thing about having a director of football whose entire knowledge of the game is derived from about five years of part-time work, is it's quite conceivable (actually IMO probable) that some fans would be able to do a better job than him.

He still has those five years worth of experience more than basically all those fans in actually dealing with the transfer market. Not that it matters, since the poster did not claim to be just better, but better on a much smaller budget as well. As for your stance on this however I am happy to agree to disagree.

My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience. Others, including you, may of course disagree, and we will never find out anyway.

Offline Forever Fulham

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 06:52:35 PM »
The Leicester player payroll during its astonishing two or three year run...I hadn't thought about  that.  Thanks for mentioning it.  How does one explain that?  The chemistry on that team was off the charts.  The manager was, by all reported accounts, beloved.  And, yes, they cobbled together some odd bedfellows teammates, like the most productive CB pairing in the entire league. Some cast offs, undeservedly so, who found a true home.  I don't know about you, but I have always regarded the Leicester Miracle as just that, the coming together of so many  improbabilities that somehow worked.  The kind of story sports fans just can't get enough of.  It will always be an outlier to me, so I'm hesitant to consider it as proof that one can buy 'on the cheap' and produce great results.  It's possible, but so unlikely.  And if you have a billionaire owner's son making key daily decisions, well...  Think  of the productivity of their forwards on a goals per salary basis.  The impact of their DM.  They just had 'it', whatever that is.  If we think we can duplicate that kind of success-on-a-shoestring, we'd need to have the earth and moon and the the stars all aligned just so.  And even then, well...  For starters, we would need a special person for Director of Football Operations, a genius for spotting talent and knowing, just knowing, that X player would fit in nicely alongside Y player, and why.  A manager that can squeeze every last drop of effective performance out of the players, and be brilliant at game management, planning, pivoting on a dime during the thick of it, a great training ground organisation, someone holding the purse who won't second guess the Director of Football Operations and his scouting group.  We'd need true and tested professionals running all key facets of the club. 


Online FFC1987

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2020, 07:53:31 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

The thing about having a director of football whose entire knowledge of the game is derived from about five years of part-time work, is it's quite conceivable (actually IMO probable) that some fans would be able to do a better job than him.

He still has those five years worth of experience more than basically all those fans in actually dealing with the transfer market. Not that it matters, since the poster did not claim to be just better, but better on a much smaller budget as well. As for your stance on this however I am happy to agree to disagree.

My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience. Others, including you, may of course disagree, and we will never find out anyway.

'All Or Nothing' should give enough insight to fans, of how complicated, stressful and actively changing, trying to sign a player is. I know we can very simply say 'he's had 12 months to list 10 CB's he wants and to sign early' but the variables in getting that signature over the line and done timely is so unlikely considering how many parties are involved.

Offline Statto

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 08:24:59 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

The thing about having a director of football whose entire knowledge of the game is derived from about five years of part-time work, is it's quite conceivable (actually IMO probable) that some fans would be able to do a better job than him.

He still has those five years worth of experience more than basically all those fans in actually dealing with the transfer market. Not that it matters, since the poster did not claim to be just better, but better on a much smaller budget as well. As for your stance on this however I am happy to agree to disagree.

My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience. Others, including you, may of course disagree, and we will never find out anyway.

'All Or Nothing' should give enough insight to fans, of how complicated, stressful and actively changing, trying to sign a player is. I know we can very simply say 'he's had 12 months to list 10 CB's he wants and to sign early' but the variables in getting that signature over the line and done timely is so unlikely considering how many parties are involved.

We seem to have these binary opinions on transfers on here - either it's something that can be done instantly and effortlessly by any idiot, or it's so impossibly hard that it's unreasonable to expect TK or any other human to do it successfully. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle - challenging, yes, but doable by an intelligent, experienced person applying effort and guile. And perhaps TK just doesn't meet one (or more) of those criteria.

Offline Statto

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 08:29:44 PM »
My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience.

Ok but most people on here have 30, 40+ years of watching professional football, and a decade or two playing it at amateur level. Coupled with the fact that lots of them will be far more intelligent and/or commercially savvy than TK.


Offline Sting of the North

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 09:06:36 PM »
My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience.

Ok but most people on here have 30, 40+ years of watching professional football, and a decade or two playing it at amateur level. Coupled with the fact that lots of them will be far more intelligent and/or commercially savvy than TK.

Don’t see why that makes much of a difference in TKs position when trying to buy players. Unless maybe if you have played at the highest level or so. If TK was doing this all by himself without any input from neither computers or other people I can easily see why that would matter though, but that isn’t the case or the role. TK is not a scout.

However I am also sure that there are some on here that with the same 5 years experience would do a better job, if that is the argument.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:13:44 PM by Sting of the North »

Offline Sting of the North

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 09:09:24 PM »
In the last couple of years I can think of at least three newly-promoted teams spending £100m-£150m - us in 2018, Wolves in 2018 and Villa in 2019. I expect we'll soon be able to add Leeds in 2020 to that list. How can anyone think FFP is a limiting factor? Is it that we think we need to spend even more, £200m or £300m??

Of course the advantage is there for clubs that have been in the top flight, but I have to agree with Statto. Perhaps this FFP post exists in the first place because of how poor we invested £100m-£150m and how well other teams like Wolves invested the same amount of money.

Give me £100m-£150m and I can do better. Give me a fraction of that and I can find 2 PL quality CB's.

This is to me such an ignorant post, but at least it explains why there is so much rage over the lack of transfers. Of course you wouldn't be able to find and convince 2 quality PL centre backs to join for a fraction of £100m. If they have the strange combination of being cheap and of clear PL quality there would be another 10 clubs interested in the PL alone.

In my opinion.

The thing about having a director of football whose entire knowledge of the game is derived from about five years of part-time work, is it's quite conceivable (actually IMO probable) that some fans would be able to do a better job than him.

He still has those five years worth of experience more than basically all those fans in actually dealing with the transfer market. Not that it matters, since the poster did not claim to be just better, but better on a much smaller budget as well. As for your stance on this however I am happy to agree to disagree.

My best guess is however that any fan that boasts about being far superior without actually having any experience is already showing that it is likely that they lack what is needed since they seemingly share TKs alleged arrogance without even his limited experience. Others, including you, may of course disagree, and we will never find out anyway.

'All Or Nothing' should give enough insight to fans, of how complicated, stressful and actively changing, trying to sign a player is. I know we can very simply say 'he's had 12 months to list 10 CB's he wants and to sign early' but the variables in getting that signature over the line and done timely is so unlikely considering how many parties are involved.

We seem to have these binary opinions on transfers on here - either it's something that can be done instantly and effortlessly by any idiot, or it's so impossibly hard that it's unreasonable to expect TK or any other human to do it successfully. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle - challenging, yes, but doable by an intelligent, experienced person applying effort and guile. And perhaps TK just doesn't meet one (or more) of those criteria.

Agree fully with this, except for the dig at TK, since I have too little insight into the situation. For all I know he does a great job, or he does a very bad job. I really couldn’t tell at this point in the transfer window.

Offline The Rational Fan

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2020, 01:46:30 AM »
FFP is limiting because we can only spend another £60m this season on transfers, but if we spend £60m well on a RCB, LCB, RW and CF, then we have the squad to get promoted again if required. FFP and TK together makes us a yo-yo team, but if TK gradually improves his skills we will one day be 17th in the PL. FFP means TK needs to build a team that can win the championship next season if required, which is not that hard.
If it isn't that hard then why did it take so long for the Khans to even have a sniff of doing well in the Championship?  Staying up is just the same conundrum which must have a whole host of solutions which mainly say 'Get the players in to cover our known weaknesses and make sure we keep positive contact with good future prospects elsewhere so that we are not left wanting when a need becomes urgent'.  In life it is called strategic planning and it needs both experience and intelligence in those who are engaged to fulfill it.  Who at FFC has been doing the strategic planning since the Khans' arrived?   

What I meant was "it isn't that hard to build a top championship side with premier league TV money, parchuate payments and allowable FFP losses". FFP rules allows Tony Khan to buy players that are too good for the championship, currently my rough calculation is he can buy four more £15m players for three seasons. If we buy two £15m centre backs, the money needs to be spent well to keep us up, but provided they are young and unjiried they should do a job in the championship. Tony Khan needs to ensure we have a squad that keeps bouncing between divisions, until a solid cohesion is build with a squad that has been together for a few years.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:48:30 AM by The Rational Fan »


Offline toshes mate

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2020, 08:34:26 AM »
... we'd need to have the earth and moon and the the stars all aligned just so ...
Throughout the history of life (as far as we know it) much of it seems to have believed in such alignments and many species use the indicators to mark their times of prevalence and decline.  We are also getting to know the gravitational effects of movement within our (entire) solar system and how that may change what happens on the planet we occupy,  Of importance right now, is the way it may change or affect how the Sun dictates its output and warms us, but there are missing pieces of the jigsaw even now after hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of years. 

Some humans were noted for being especially sensitive to natural phenomena and reading the signs and the cost of getting things wrong was for some their life.  Who could argue against the unseen except for those who can reproduce their success at will and to order?  Those interested in mathematics plotted the cycles as best they could from the data that records yielded.  In the past four decades the age of computing hasn't given us further insight of patterns but still we have neither the power nor the languages to cope with the huge amount of stuff there is.  We cannot accurately predict where a cloud may suddenly form or rain upon the Earth beneath it except very close to when it becomes of significance to us.  Meanwhile the oceans warm and cool oblicvious to our sight and our measuring devices.

In football meanwhile, something we invented, we believe there are magical ways to achieve success which still rely on an alignment of some kind to actually happen just at the right moment ...

Do you believe in Miracles?
 


Offline ron

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2020, 10:56:49 AM »
Just read the OP. An informed and interesting piece, elegantly presented.

Offline Fulham1959

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Re: FFP, Parker's comments, and my thoughts in no particular order
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2020, 11:15:40 AM »
Excellent post, but easier to read with spacing :

As a newly promoted club team, we are, in a sense, prisoners of the effect of Financial Fair Play rules.  We have a billionaire owner (four billion by some accounts) who right now can’t go out and get us three or four  big ticket players with proven current pedigree.  We can’t spend beyond our means under FFP, as determined by what is and isn’t classified as football operations revenue.  Though to be fair, we have seen FFP perverted by underhanded actions like huge sponsorship deals at some giant clubs the values of which could never be fairly supported on the merits.  Just a way to launder an influx of cash to support player payrolls.

We don’t have a large stadium (yet).  Our ticket prices are, ahem, reasonable compared to  many of the PL stalwarts.  We don’t have the huge following of those same mainstays which brings big merchandise revenues.  Or sponsorships.   We’re the little club by the river.  Always punching above our weight once we get into the PL.
 
Before the FFP were enacted, we had an owner who spent huge sums (back then) to get quality PL level players.  And that got the club to the promised land, and fast.  Can’t do that today under the rules.  Now, you aren’t supposed to spend beyond your means, as ‘means’ is interpreted under the rules.  MAF could do what Shad  can’t today.
 
A strange situation.  So staying in the PL, and staying in the top half of the table, is largely a by-product of your allowable budget for player personnel.   We can’t defeat Arsenal, but rarely, because we can’t compete financially for the players that club can bring onto its roster.  Fans spend inordinate amounts of time suggesting diamonds in the rough, supposed ‘finds’ languishing at other clubs that they think we can get cheap or on loan.   How often does that play out?  In the era of FFP, how often does the club find that special and affordable overlooked player that comes into his own or really takes off at Fulham?  Mitrovic comes to mind.  Who else?
 
It seems so unfair, outrageous, actually, that a set of rules declared to foster stability and prevent bankruptcies over the arms race of player payrolls, has the effect of keeping the big money clubs entrenched in the league, and the little clubs like Fulham always scrapping and clawing for a seat at the table.  There has to be a better way, especially when you have a multibillionaire owner who has the wherewithal to splay 100 million more right now to all  but assure our continued spot, avoid relegation next season, maybe even make us a mid table team.  An outlay which wouldn’t threaten his financial security.  I’ve long thought there should be a billionaire’s exception to FFP.  Or at least an accommodation, an acknowledgment if you will.  Why  be rigid in application when it isn’t warranted?
 
As I watched the Arsenal game, I couldn’t help but guesstimate their  average player wages; and I found it rather infuriating.  Has anyone done a study of how many PL-promoted teams stay up (and if so for how long) in the era of FFP vs. pre-FFP. 
We just lost our opener to the FA Cup winner.  To an in form team with quality players whose combined salaries must dwarf Fulham’s by comparison.  A team whose players have been in the most recent habit of playing other top PL teams.  We had a mountain to climb.  We did all right in my book.  Scotty P’s post mortem to the press made a lot of sense to me—level set expectations.  We aren’t likely to win more games than we’ll lose THIS SEASON.  We just got here (again). 

Be patient.  The goal is to stay up.  Just stay up.  Stay up and  PL shared rev will flow our way.  More money, better players.  Better everything.  Be realists.  We have to beat the weak sister teams in the league and expect to lose to the better ones.  For now.  And have just enough  total points at the end to stay up.  And that’s a great victory.  What he said, I thought, was rather profound in its honesty.  A lodestar.