NFR: Crypto Currencies

[Fulham1959]

I admit I still do not understand the concept, even though I've Googled it and have heard so-called explanations.

Having spent most of my working life as an accountant and company secretary, I am not entirely thick.  But I have yet to read or hear an explanation I can grasp !

[Cambridge Pete]

Don't trust it. My son has some but it reminds me of the 17th Century Dutch Tulip Mania

[blingo]

Don't trust it. My son has some but it reminds me of the 17th Century Dutch Tulip Mania

Do you trust banks and pension schemes Pete?

[Statto]

@ Blingo

The banking sector exists to match people who don't have money and need it now (eg someone buying a house or a company wanting to build a bigger factory) with people who have money and don't need it now (eg people saving a pension for their retirement). Bitcoin isn't going to fix or change any of that. It's just a currency. You're still going to need "banks and pension schemes".

And I don't see how it'll make anything "faster or cheaper". You can already trade fiat currencies in milliseconds.

It will inhibit central governments engaging in monetary policy actions like QE, but I'm not sure why you see that as a bad thing. We'll see in the aftermath of the current crisis the need for those tools to get us out of trouble.

And "in it's infancy"? Well how long does that last? Because I remember reading about Bitcoin 5-10 years ago and I'm still yet to encounter a single merchant asking me to use Bitcoin to pay for anything in the real world.

The only genuine selling point I've heard is that the blockchain technology underlying it is highly secure, making it less susceptible to fraud. But I don't think that offsets the various disadvantages, not least that it's not even climate friendly, and let's be honest, nothing that isn't climate friendly is going to take off these days.

I'll caveat the foregoing with the admission that I don't know an awful lot about it, although I get the impression I know as much as you do. But TBH I'm more interested in having a healthy discussion about this than the match tonight, such is mu optimism about FFC these days!

[Plodder]

I am by nature a cautious investor, which has served me both well and ill. In the case of Bitcoin in particular, with hindsight, I should have of course have taken a punt. However, put that against other stellar "opportunities" to which siren voices were luring me (e.g. a plethora of tech stocks about 25 years ago, the Woodford funds etc. etc), which have turned out disastrously.  The one thing I think I know after 30 plus years as an amateur is that the market is dominated by irrationality, and (more recently) by algorithms.  When I look as objectively as I can at Bitcoin, I can see ingenious arguments for its future as set out by Blingo, but I still see it as Statto and others do - pyramid selling / Ponzi scheme which will bring riches to comparatively few and end in tears for the many, who came to the party late and bought in at a high price.  I just see little or no intrinsic worth in cryptocurrencies, and the comparison with Dutch tulip mania made above is apt.

I think it was an opportunity for the gambler a few years ago, and Blingo and others will get rich on the back of that - they have taken a risk and done well.  My opinion is that people piling in now at the current price, swayed by Elon Musk tweets, will get their fingers (more in some cases) badly burnt, spurred on by the siren calls of those already holding Bitcoins and trying to maximise their profits.  There is a school of thought that some of the comments by Musk and others breach "market manipulation" rules in the US.  To me, it is another illustration of irrationality in financial markets, but I acknowledge that the price I pay is missing out sometimes.

[Plodder]

As a quick question to those who know more about cryptocurrencies, what happens once all 21 million Bitcoins have been mined?  How do economies grow if based purely on cryptocurrencies of which there is a finite stock?  Furthermore, because some people have lost and will lose their private keys to their Bitcoin wallets or have died without leaving their private key instructions to anybody, the actual amount of available bitcoin in circulation becomes even smaller.

[blingo]

@ Blingo

The banking sector exists to match people who don't have money and need it now (eg someone buying a house or a company wanting to build a bigger factory) with people who have money and don't need it now (eg people saving a pension for their retirement). Bitcoin isn't going to fix or change any of that. It's just a currency. You're still going to need "banks and pension schemes".

And I don't see how it'll make anything "faster or cheaper". You can already trade fiat currencies in milliseconds.

It will inhibit central governments engaging in monetary policy actions like QE, but I'm not sure why you see that as a bad thing. We'll see in the aftermath of the current crisis the need for those tools to get us out of trouble.

And "in it's infancy"? Well how long does that last? Because I remember reading about Bitcoin 5-10 years ago and I'm still yet to encounter a single merchant asking me to use Bitcoin to pay for anything in the real world.

The only genuine selling point I've heard is that the blockchain technology underlying it is highly secure, making it less susceptible to fraud. But I don't think that offsets the various disadvantages, not least that it's not even climate friendly, and let's be honest, nothing that isn't climate friendly is going to take off these days.

I'll caveat the foregoing with the admission that I don't know an awful lot about it, although I get the impression I know as much as you do. But TBH I'm more interested in having a healthy discussion about this than the match tonight, such is mu optimism about FFC these days!

Read up a bit on decentralised finance, it may help you understand it better. As for the impression you have that I know as little as you do about crypto. You are mistaken. Still, you're entitled to your opinion so fair enough. My eldest son is an expert on crypto, he makes his living with it, and of course we have many conversations about investing, the future of crypto coins and defi and many other aspects about the particular sector. So I'm half informed if it makes you feel better 👍

[Somerset Fulham]

A privately owned monetary system that circumvents government controls is madness.

As a currency, it may well end up sitting alongside more traditional methods in years to come, but that is the ceiling for this one, I think.  Especially as the FCA's stance on it is such a strong one.

[FFC1987]

@ Blingo

The banking sector exists to match people who don't have money and need it now (eg someone buying a house or a company wanting to build a bigger factory) with people who have money and don't need it now (eg people saving a pension for their retirement). Bitcoin isn't going to fix or change any of that. It's just a currency. You're still going to need "banks and pension schemes".

And I don't see how it'll make anything "faster or cheaper". You can already trade fiat currencies in milliseconds.

It will inhibit central governments engaging in monetary policy actions like QE, but I'm not sure why you see that as a bad thing. We'll see in the aftermath of the current crisis the need for those tools to get us out of trouble.

And "in it's infancy"? Well how long does that last? Because I remember reading about Bitcoin 5-10 years ago and I'm still yet to encounter a single merchant asking me to use Bitcoin to pay for anything in the real world.

The only genuine selling point I've heard is that the blockchain technology underlying it is highly secure, making it less susceptible to fraud. But I don't think that offsets the various disadvantages, not least that it's not even climate friendly, and let's be honest, nothing that isn't climate friendly is going to take off these days.

I'll caveat the foregoing with the admission that I don't know an awful lot about it, although I get the impression I know as much as you do. But TBH I'm more interested in having a healthy discussion about this than the match tonight, such is mu optimism about FFC these days!

Read up a bit on decentralised finance, it may help you understand it better. As for the impression you have that I know as little as you do about crypto. You are mistaken. Still, you're entitled to your opinion so fair enough. My eldest son is an expert on crypto, he makes his living with it, and of course we have many conversations about investing, the future of crypto coins and defi and many other aspects about the particular sector. So I'm half informed if it makes you feel better 👍

You say he makes a living from it, do you mean as a bitcoin miner ie GPU hoarder? If so, as much as I find cypto fascinating, the negative impact its had on PC gaming and getting your hands on recent graphics cards has me raging.

As for anyone being an expert in cypto, I follow it a lot. Anyone suggesting its the future, or the opposite, doesn't know, fun to guess, but it really is as simple as that. It could just as easily, be the next BIG thing as it is the next fad and gone overnight. It's extremely volatile, isn't safe, and in current times, not a market I'd recommend getting involved with unless you yourself have done a lot of homework into it. I've seen a lot of this over the past 5 years culminating in the recent bandwagoning of GME stock to investments in certain cypto being completely worthless over a 24 hour period and as mentioned, some just straight out fraud.

And whoever referenced Elon as a mark of recommendation, I'm a big fan but not only is his investment a drop in the ocean (unless its changed again, hes now the richest guy in the world), he's clearly a troll and loves manipulating the markets for his favour, so much so he's constantly being investigated by the SEC for it. Again, love the guy, but take some of his investment advice with a pinch of salt. Example, on his own stock 'oh, it's totally overvalued'. The CEO of said company's aid that about his own stock and made it decline, quickly. He knows what he's doing when he tweets things or updates his bio to increase stock value.

[SG]

I admit I still do not understand the concept, even though I've Googled it and have heard so-called explanations.

Having spent most of my working life as an accountant and company secretary, I am not entirely thick.  But I have yet to read or hear an explanation I can grasp !

Exactly the same for me. Financially aware but do not understand it. As I don't understand it I will not invest in it

[blingo]

My son vets companies who want to operate crypto licenses in gibraltar. He has to have a vast knowledge of crypto and the markets. He specialises in the field of crypto. I hope that makes things a little clearer.

[jayffc]

I'm riding Doge Coin to the Moon, got in early,nothing too crazy, just a couple hundred... just before the Elon Musk hype, still holding, still ALOT of growth there. The world loves irony and a good joke and I think for that reason itactually has real legs, especially in a Meme generation. Will steadily continue to return my original investment withdrawing in small amounts, and treat the rest as free stock from there.  For me its a safer bet than playing the lottery or gambling which I dont do very often. Its also become a bit of a silly and fun joke with a few friends of mine. The idea of paying for things in the future with doge coin is a fun and silly idea to not attatch too much hope to,  but, the ........"but what if" has been the cause of a lot of laughter already.
If you're looking for a way to get out of debt. DONT DO IT. If you have a spare bit of money to play with. Go for it in my opinion.

With Elon shedding so much light on it , and inviting other celebs in to put the spotlight on it, I don't see why - if they install some level of a soft cap as some signs are suggesting, I dont see why it won't continue to grow as awareness spreads. will it be the next Bitcoin? mprobably not, but will it get to $1-$3 ...I could see that feasibly, especially if Elon continues to legitimize it by doing things like letting people buy Teslas with it. Bitcoin had the same ponzi scheme etc levelled at it early, now steadily different places are accepting it as currency.

[General]

Yes, I have invested into Bitcoin about 3 years ago when it was low and have reaped the benefit as it continues to surge onwards and upwards. The two I have are  BTC-USD I bought at around 7,000 currently 47,002.41. Also ETH-USD, bought at around 500, currently 1,802,15.
After a few lows they have shot up, and continue to do so. Despite all the good forecasts I now check them every day in case there is a fall. I may withdraw my initial investment shortly. Leave the profit there until I have enough money to buy Fulham and employ a fully qualified D of F.

Hahaha. Always enjoy your posts woolley mammoth. I too am invested in crypto.. a lot of sceptics I believe simply don't get how much it underpins a fundamental shift in every aspect of global financial life and is still in its relative infancy. If you invested 2 years ago or even early this year you should be able to hold continuously and simply reap the profits moving forward. It's legalised in Japan and other countries and is only just getting into phase two (1 being fundamentals 2 being wider audience and implementation), it is the new financial system.

You simply will struggle to globally currently regulate a decentralised financial system..  there is a limit to the currencies being created and incredible possibilities/tech behind them. Not only that but with visa, PayPal, Mastercard and apple all in discussions about enabling it for payments and other governments and institutional investors getting on board (BNY Mellon, Ethiopia), it is simply a once in a thousand years economic development which for those who buy and hold what they own will almost definitely just see returns on the right products if they keep informed and read up on what it is all about.

This is like the advent of the Internet and mobile phones but with finance.

Whilst this is my opinion and not a financial professional advising you.. it is simply here to stay.

I'm hedging but across several of the top emerging coins and existing coins and have seen a significant gain since. Long term hold for me.

[bigalffc]

I don't understand it at all. There was no physical money involved, could I just make up a currency, let's call it shitcoin and will people send me real money in exchange. Makes no sense to me.

[General]

I'm riding Doge Coin to the Moon, got in early,nothing too crazy, just a couple hundred


... just before the Elon Musk hype, still holding, still ALOT of growth there. The world loves irony and a good joke and I think for that reason itactually has real legs, especially in a Meme generation. Will steadily continue to return my original investment withdrawing in small amounts, and treat the rest as free stock from there.  For me its a safer bet than playing the lottery or gambling which I dont do very often. Its also become a bit of a silly and fun joke with a few friends of mine. The idea of paying for things in the future with doge coin is a fun and silly idea to not attatch too much hope to,  but, the ........but what if has been the cause of a lot of laughter already.
If you're looking for a way to get out of debt. DONT DO IT. If you have a spare bit of money to play with. Go for it in my opinion.

With Elon shedding so much light on it , and inviting other celebs in to put the spotlight on it, I don't see why - if they install some level of a soft cap as some signs are suggesting, I dont see why it won't continue to grow as awareness spreads. will it be the next Bitcoin? mprobably not, but will it get to $1-$3 ...I could see that feasibly, especially if Elon continues to legitimize it by doing things like letting people buy Teslas with it. Bitcoin had the same ponzi scheme etc levelled at it early, now steadily different places are accepting it as currency.

Its taken a hit recently but I tend to agree. Currently still one of the largest by market cap you've no harm putting a small amount in and watching it grow if it does kick off past 1USD etc. Could make millionaires and even more - billionaires if gets wider adoption to even 1/50th of what bitcoin is now.

[Luka]

The only view I have is that I bought a few when they cost me £5700 each and they now sell for £35000 each.
A Dutch guy convinced me to invest as much as I could afford to loose. He had sold everything he owned except his house to buy 116 of them. I still talk to him as he owns a business I sometimes work with but he still has more than half of his BTC.
Lucky him

[General]

I don't understand it at all. There was no physical money involved, could I just make up a currency, let's call it shitcoin and will people send me real money in exchange. Makes no sense to me.

Money doesn't exist.. the paper stuff is a creation to underpin a value or as the Indian rupee clearly states an I.O.U... the world and finance is pushing towards digital currency being the norm because it's easier to transact and more cost efficient. Read up on it would be my suggestion. You won't necessarily lose anything by being a later adopter but people have become billionaires and millionaires multiple times over because they invested and got the concept earlier even with the smallest sums because they paid that attention to it. If you put 1,000 pounds into bitcoin when it was 10 GBp a couple of years ago you'd have been looking at 4-5m now.

[jayffc]

I'm riding Doge Coin to the Moon, got in early,nothing too crazy, just a couple hundred


... just before the Elon Musk hype, still holding, still ALOT of growth there. The world loves irony and a good joke and I think for that reason itactually has real legs, especially in a Meme generation. Will steadily continue to return my original investment withdrawing in small amounts, and treat the rest as free stock from there.  For me its a safer bet than playing the lottery or gambling which I dont do very often. Its also become a bit of a silly and fun joke with a few friends of mine. The idea of paying for things in the future with doge coin is a fun and silly idea to not attatch too much hope to,  but, the ........but what if has been the cause of a lot of laughter already.
If you're looking for a way to get out of debt. DONT DO IT. If you have a spare bit of money to play with. Go for it in my opinion.

With Elon shedding so much light on it , and inviting other celebs in to put the spotlight on it, I don't see why - if they install some level of a soft cap as some signs are suggesting, I dont see why it won't continue to grow as awareness spreads. will it be the next Bitcoin? mprobably not, but will it get to $1-$3 ...I could see that feasibly, especially if Elon continues to legitimize it by doing things like letting people buy Teslas with it. Bitcoin had the same ponzi scheme etc levelled at it early, now steadily different places are accepting it as currency.

Its taken a hit recently but I tend to agree. Currently still one of the largest by market cap you've no harm putting a small amount in and watching it grow if it does kick off past 1USD etc. Could make millionaires and even more - billionaires if gets wider adoption to even 1/50th of what bitcoin is now.

Absolutely, as with all these markets, it's dipped the last day or 2, but it's rise is just beginning in my opinion. It has a hype around it that's hard to replicate and it appears to be consolidating to an extent, and establishing itself bit by bit. As Elon and others discuss it in podcasts, as more businesses legitimize it ( I see a car dealership sold the first Doge coin car this week ha!) I dont think this current dip is anything deeply concerning.... Im even considering an extra cheeky £50 during this dip. In it for the long run myself so not too perturbed by the lows... but then we're not talking thousands invested personally so it's a little easier not to get stressed about!

[General]

@ Blingo

The banking sector exists to match people who don't have money and need it now (eg someone buying a house or a company wanting to build a bigger factory) with people who have money and don't need it now (eg people saving a pension for their retirement). Bitcoin isn't going to fix or change any of that. It's just a currency. You're still going to need "banks and pension schemes".

And I don't see how it'll make anything "faster or cheaper". You can already trade fiat currencies in milliseconds.

It will inhibit central governments engaging in monetary policy actions like QE, but I'm not sure why you see that as a bad thing. We'll see in the aftermath of the current crisis the need for those tools to get us out of trouble.

And "in it's infancy"? Well how long does that last? Because I remember reading about Bitcoin 5-10 years ago and I'm still yet to encounter a single merchant asking me to use Bitcoin to pay for anything in the real world.

The only genuine selling point I've heard is that the blockchain technology underlying it is highly secure, making it less susceptible to fraud. But I don't think that offsets the various disadvantages, not least that it's not even climate friendly, and let's be honest, nothing that isn't climate friendly is going to take off these days.

I'll caveat the foregoing with the admission that I don't know an awful lot about it, although I get the impression I know as much as you do. But TBH I'm more interested in having a healthy discussion about this than the match tonight, such is mu optimism about FFC these days!

Read up a bit on decentralised finance, it may help you understand it better. As for the impression you have that I know as little as you do about crypto. You are mistaken. Still, you're entitled to your opinion so fair enough. My eldest son is an expert on crypto, he makes his living with it, and of course we have many conversations about investing, the future of crypto coins and defi and many other aspects about the particular sector. So I'm half informed if it makes you feel better 👍

You say he makes a living from it, do you mean as a bitcoin miner ie GPU hoarder? If so, as much as I find cypto fascinating, the negative impact its had on PC gaming and getting your hands on recent graphics cards has me raging.

As for anyone being an expert in cypto, I follow it a lot. Anyone suggesting its the future, or the opposite, doesn't know, fun to guess, but it really is as simple as that. It could just as easily, be the next BIG thing as it is the next fad and gone overnight. It's extremely volatile, isn't safe, and in current times, not a market I'd recommend getting involved with unless you yourself have done a lot of homework into it. I've seen a lot of this over the past 5 years culminating in the recent bandwagoning of GME stock to investments in certain cypto being completely worthless over a 24 hour period and as mentioned, some just straight out fraud.

And whoever referenced Elon as a mark of recommendation, I'm a big fan but not only is his investment a drop in the ocean (unless its changed again, hes now the richest guy in the world), he's clearly a troll and loves manipulating the markets for his favour, so much so he's constantly being investigated by the SEC for it. Again, love the guy, but take some of his investment advice with a pinch of salt. Example, on his own stock 'oh, it's totally overvalued'. The CEO of said company's aid that about his own stock and made it decline, quickly. He knows what he's doing when he tweets things or updates his bio to increase stock value.

Thats an odd quip to make.. he says he makes a living off it and mining these days is far less productive than simply investing. It makes no sense to go to a means to an end in labelling his son a miner when it's made thousands if not millions of people exponentially wealthy through simple investment.

[Chris M]

Into BTC, ETH, but mainly Cardano (ADA).