What in heaven's happened

[H4usuallysitting]

I agree.... TK won't be using DOF on his CV....but the same team play 16 game's & the 1st 8 was top ten prem, while the 2nd 8 was bottom 2.... How did that occur....what changed in that 2nd 8 game run?

One way to look at it was 1st 8 games 5 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them, in the second set of 8 games 4 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them....so thats not an excuse.

I'm trying to work out if something happened in the squad....was there a fallout

[MJG]

I agree.... TK won't be using DOF on his CV....but the same team play 16 game's & the 1st 8 was top ten prem, while the 2nd 8 was bottom 2.... How did that occur....what changed in that 2nd 8 game run?

One way to look at it was 1st 8 games 5 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them, in the second set of 8 games 4 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them....so thats not an excuse.

I'm trying to work out if something happened in the squad....was there a fallout

not that I've heard that wasn't there already.

[H4usuallysitting]

I agree.... TK won't be using DOF on his CV....but the same team play 16 game's & the 1st 8 was top ten prem, while the 2nd 8 was bottom 2.... How did that occur....what changed in that 2nd 8 game run?

One way to look at it was 1st 8 games 5 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them, in the second set of 8 games 4 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them....so thats not an excuse.

I'm trying to work out if something happened in the squad....was there a fallout

not that I've heard that wasn't there already.

Strange isn't it.....most of us believed we had an outside chance, then awful.... possibly some dark forces somewhere in the squad

[Dunstable Fulham]

Yes January could have been better but from the day the window shut till after the Liverpool game we played 8 games and got 12 pts and were on 26 from 28 games.
Yet 8 games later we have 1 more point instead of maybe another 12 if we could have kept anywhere near that form up.  Even the worst teams should get near a point a game but we have even failed to do that. He got the team playing in a way to pick up points and then i believe they thought half the job was done, started believing their own hype...players and coach...and threw it away with negative tactics and a mental block of some kind.

I could dig out loads of posts here and on twitter where people thought this group of players were good enough for top ten, they were never that, but i think there was enough in this squad to do better than we did, so yes TK had a hand in making it tough, but Parker should have done better and I'm yet to see him say he made any mistakes at all. Not me guv seems to be his stance. I'd say his negative tactics, not playing people who know how to score goals and his club Parker attitude which causes frictions with players are why in the end we are down.

Fully agree with this post. Nothing more to add.

[Nero]

Yes January could have been better but from the day the window shut till after the Liverpool game we played 8 games and got 12 pts and were on 26 from 28 games.
Yet 8 games later we have 1 more point instead of maybe another 12 if we could have kept anywhere near that form up.  Even the worst teams should get near a point a game but we have even failed to do that. He got the team playing in a way to pick up points and then i believe they thought half the job was done, started believing their own hype...players and coach...and threw it away with negative tactics and a mental block of some kind.

I could dig out loads of posts here and on twitter where people thought this group of players were good enough for top ten, they were never that, but i think there was enough in this squad to do better than we did, so yes TK had a hand in making it tough, but Parker should have done better and I'm yet to see him say he made any mistakes at all. Not me guv seems to be his stance. I'd say his negative tactics, not playing people who know how to score goals and his club Parker attitude which causes frictions with players are why in the end we are down.

Fully agree with this post. Nothing more to add.

and add to that people didn't want us signing 11 new players again and to give these players a chance something the manager said as well he didn't want to make wholesale changes like when we went up last time.

[LittleErn]

It must have been very difficult for the team to maintain the levels of consistency and commitment required to continually keep clean sheets. That became even more problematic with a misfiring attack putting extra pressure on the defence. It was a big ask.

I agree with the above, but could it also have been a loss of discipline in defence, caused by their increasing frustration with the misfiring attack? Andersen, in particular, seemed to start seeing himself as a play maker with long raking crossfield passes and was also not averse to pushing further forward. When that happened the remaining defenders lost his organising presence. In the first 8 games defenders concentrated on defending, but once we started to get desperate for goals they felt a need to push forward, leaving holes that were exploited.

[Phil Stant]

It must have been very difficult for the team to maintain the levels of consistency and commitment required to continually keep clean sheets. That became even more problematic with a misfiring attack putting extra pressure on the defence. It was a big ask.

I agree with the above, but could it also have been a loss of discipline in defence, caused by their increasing frustration with the misfiring attack? Andersen, in particular, seemed to start seeing himself as a play maker with long raking crossfield passes and was also not averse to pushing further forward. When that happened the remaining defenders lost his organising presence. In the first 8 games defenders concentrated on defending, but once we started to get desperate for goals they felt a need to push forward, leaving holes that were exploited.

I Agree Little Ern.
When playing 5 at the back and looking to counter we were playing to out strengths.
We drew too many and went back to the slow possession game and paid the price.

[filham]

With Cav. and Reid brought over from last season it was obvious we were going to be weak in attack. At the beginning of the season I thought our attacking hopes could be fulfilled by RLC, we really never had a hope in hell.

[MJG]

Yes January could have been better but from the day the window shut till after the Liverpool game we played 8 games and got 12 pts and were on 26 from 28 games.
Yet 8 games later we have 1 more point instead of maybe another 12 if we could have kept anywhere near that form up.  Even the worst teams should get near a point a game but we have even failed to do that. He got the team playing in a way to pick up points and then i believe they thought half the job was done, started believing their own hype...players and coach...and threw it away with negative tactics and a mental block of some kind.

I could dig out loads of posts here and on twitter where people thought this group of players were good enough for top ten, they were never that, but i think there was enough in this squad to do better than we did, so yes TK had a hand in making it tough, but Parker should have done better and I'm yet to see him say he made any mistakes at all. Not me guv seems to be his stance. I'd say his negative tactics, not playing people who know how to score goals and his club Parker attitude which causes frictions with players are why in the end we are down.

Agree with this - just one question for you: you have mentioned the club Parker before and I think another poster here wrote about this at some point. Would you care to elaborate a bit more (only if you can of course) for the rest of us?

I can't really but its gone on pretty much from day one when he arrived as a player. Only yesterday was hearing stuff about whats been going on especally with the players he has fallen out with this season. hes not a builder of a good atmosphere either as aplyer or manager it seems. This is now his 3rd relegtion with us.

[Asotosyios]

Yes January could have been better but from the day the window shut till after the Liverpool game we played 8 games and got 12 pts and were on 26 from 28 games.
Yet 8 games later we have 1 more point instead of maybe another 12 if we could have kept anywhere near that form up.  Even the worst teams should get near a point a game but we have even failed to do that. He got the team playing in a way to pick up points and then i believe they thought half the job was done, started believing their own hype...players and coach...and threw it away with negative tactics and a mental block of some kind.

I could dig out loads of posts here and on twitter where people thought this group of players were good enough for top ten, they were never that, but i think there was enough in this squad to do better than we did, so yes TK had a hand in making it tough, but Parker should have done better and I'm yet to see him say he made any mistakes at all. Not me guv seems to be his stance. I'd say his negative tactics, not playing people who know how to score goals and his club Parker attitude which causes frictions with players are why in the end we are down.

Agree with this - just one question for you: you have mentioned the club Parker before and I think another poster here wrote about this at some point. Would you care to elaborate a bit more (only if you can of course) for the rest of us?

I can't really but its gone on pretty much from day one when he arrived as a player. Only yesterday was hearing stuff about whats been going on especally with the players he has fallen out with this season. hes not a builder of a good atmosphere either as aplyer or manager it seems. This is now his 3rd relegtion with us.

Thanks MJG, appreciate it. Very interesting, especially when all we hear is how Parker has brought the squad together.

[Rodshig]

It all went wrong after the villa game. To lost the game in the manner after taking the lead

[ALG01]

I agree.... TK won't be using DOF on his CV....but the same team play 16 game's & the 1st 8 was top ten prem, while the 2nd 8 was bottom 2.... How did that occur....what changed in that 2nd 8 game run?

One way to look at it was 1st 8 games 5 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them, in the second set of 8 games 4 were top 10 teams at the time of playing them....so thats not an excuse.

I think the squad was just too thin on the quality and required all players to be playing to maximum capability and catching evertomn and liverpool on sluggish type days. The signs were there in those games and on the mini run we had that we were just not good enough without a forward line. We did Ok for a bit but were not hitting the target and as such it was too easy for teams in the prem to stop us in our tracks. Despite what the learned MJG says, and I do respect his opinion, this was entirely about lack of action in january, it really is that simple. The good run was not sustainable because we were not scoring goals, and not looking like we were scoring goals.

Not really rocket science.

I'm trying to work out if something happened in the squad....was there a fallout

[RaySmith]

I wondered if it was because we abandoned defensive solidity somewhat, since Parker knew we had to win games, and this was our downfall, even i  it wasn't obviously apparent that we were more of an attacking side.

But drawing, and not winning games , was big criticism of Parker and the team.

Whatever,  instead of drawing and being defensively solid, we went to just losing, and being defensively  weak as well as failing to score.

I also thought mental frailty could be  a reason - suddenly everyone was saying how good we  were, and how we  would go above  obviously crap Newcastle (though many of us knew that when their injured forwards returned, it would be a different matter).

But we  seemed to suffer a crisis of  confidence, and as the results got worse, so did our form.
WE did have bad luck too,  hitting the post, etc, and  continued with suffering  awful ref decisions against us.
And who knows the effects of Covid, also.

Parker, was the manager, so has to be responsible for our bad form as well as our good results, but we did  depend on getting attackers in Jan, and only Maja materialised, for whatever reason.

I don't reallly see the reason for attacking Parker personally - he presumably wanted desperately for the team to play well and stay up, though obviously made mistakes, but what manager doesn't? What manager's team selection isn't controversial for fans, when the team does badly? but he manager has to make  these decisions every week, and deal with the pressure, and is paid good money for this, of course.
Look at Bruce and the Geordies.

But you could see the confidence flow through the team with good results, and  media praise, then  see it  dissipate , starting with the City game, when we played well in the first half, but succumbed to the old defensive frailties i the second - and then it all  became gradually worse, and we were back to the  Fulham at the start of the season, lacking self belief, and looking clueless.

[HV71]

MJG  - as you are one who I believe isn't into rumours and tittle tattle  your response to Asotosyios is both revealing and alarming.
Some of Parker' s decisions seem unfathomable but if the dressing room is in any way  divided then the best thing would be for him to go.

[Willham]

if you want a proper answer to the original question I will give it and hope not to be critisised for saying what nhappens in any business organisation.

the team turned things round, got organised, were commited and had started to look like a team.
unfirtunately two things occured. first was covid and it clearly took its toll on some key players.
second January transfer window happened
we needed reinforcements but they simply were not acquired and the net effect of these two things left an underlying time bomb in the squad.
it was clear we need to strengthen, we didn't, when things started to go against us we had no depth in the squad or alternatives for scott to try, he simply did not have the requisite quality in the squad.

this was what is known in business as 'p*ss poor management' from above. it totally undermines the ethos of the club because they know they have been dropped in it and there is no support from above.

now that is what really happened. maybe scott could have been more adventurous but the january window guaranteed failure. scott never had a chance. others can think what they like but this was simple poor management from above.

I disagree,

I feel the drop came when we tried to shift forcus towards attack, throughout the season we had been playing very very patiently then around january/February time I saw a change, especially against leeds. We tried and I want to put extra emphasis on the TRIED part because I saw that we were getting the ball forward quicker but the problem became our players didnt move as quick, so once we've got the ball forward it was to a lone man with usually 4 defenders in a nice line still to break through and no one running forward to help,

And you can say what you like about TK and signings but a team shouldnt be reliant on signatures and we for one shouldnt be in as desperate situation as we are.
SP is suppose to get the best from what hes got and quite frankly he hasn't done a good job of it.
Why carvalho hasn't played before we were relegated pains me.
The constant attempt to make a player out of RLC.. anyone could do a better job than him.

Saying all that above about SP and still I would keep him, it's annoying because he hasn't done well enough but he just about hasn't done bad enough either, at least for me

[The Old Count]

MJG  - as you are one who I believe isn't into rumours and tittle tattle  your response to Asotosyios is both revealing and alarming.
Some of Parker' s decisions seem unfathomable but if the dressing room is in any way  divided then the best thing would be for him to go.

MJG is normally right on the money when it comes to what the mood is at the club so I am alarmed at this. It does, however, explain a lot of what's happened over the last 9 or 10 matches.

[ALG01]

if you want a proper answer to the original question I will give it and hope not to be critisised for saying what nhappens in any business organisation.

the team turned things round, got organised, were commited and had started to look like a team.
unfirtunately two things occured. first was covid and it clearly took its toll on some key players.
second January transfer window happened
we needed reinforcements but they simply were not acquired and the net effect of these two things left an underlying time bomb in the squad.
it was clear we need to strengthen, we didn't, when things started to go against us we had no depth in the squad or alternatives for scott to try, he simply did not have the requisite quality in the squad.

this was what is known in business as 'p*ss poor management' from above. it totally undermines the ethos of the club because they know they have been dropped in it and there is no support from above.

now that is what really happened. maybe scott could have been more adventurous but the january window guaranteed failure. scott never had a chance. others can think what they like but this was simple poor management from above.

I disagree,

I feel the drop came when we tried to shift forcus towards attack, throughout the season we had been playing very very patiently then around january/February time I saw a change, especially against leeds. We tried and I want to put extra emphasis on the TRIED part because I saw that we were getting the ball forward quicker but the problem became our players didnt move as quick, so once we've got the ball forward it was to a lone man with usually 4 defenders in a nice line still to break through and no one running forward to help,

And you can say what you like about TK and signings but a team shouldnt be reliant on signatures and we for one shouldnt be in as desperate situation as we are.
SP is suppose to get the best from what hes got and quite frankly he hasn't done a good job of it.
Why carvalho hasn't played before we were relegated pains me.
The constant attempt to make a player out of RLC.. anyone could do a better job than him.

Saying all that above about SP and still I would keep him, it's annoying because he hasn't done well enough but he just about hasn't done bad enough either, at least for me

I totally agree with your first paragraph and had meant to post a similar thing too. I am sure you are right that Scott tried to adjust the team to get us more offensive and it did not seem to work. I would have immediately reverted to the previous system that looked like it suited. In my opinion that was scott's biggest error.
Regarding the second para clearly we disagree and yes it is the job of the manager to get the best from the players he has no matter what. Maybe he could have done a boit better but IMO, the squad was just not properly balanced and this is the prem, the top league in the world. We might have got away with it in the championship, as we did twice, but not when the step up comes. I am sorry to repeat, IMO January killed us.

Now if FFP was really at issue and the wages could have been clipped, Rodak was good enough and we should not have signed RLC. Two lots of top wages that could have gone toward getting desparately needed forwards. Areola has been the stand out player, but we wouldn't have been that different without him and if we would have got proper forwards, probably better off if wages was the issue.

Personally I agree re scott unless somebpody comes up with a cracking alternative and the only one I can think of is get slav back and that isn't happening.