Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...

[blingo]

How much is that in bitcoin Mr Roger? lol

[Peabody]

I think I will stay away from it and live out my life with what I have, a loving family and a decent pension

[blingo]

I think I will stay away from it and live out my life with what I have, a loving family and a decent pension

If you are comfortable with that, then it is the right choice for you Mr P.

[Luka]

Try not looking at BTC as a currency and view it as a store of value and it makes more sense.
BTC is a digital equivalent to gold.

[Plodder]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.

[Jim©]

Actually only 25% of fraud losses are recovered (on average).
Almost all money is open to fraud- I'm sure crypto will be similar (though there are arguments that it will in future be much safer).

[General]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.

Firstly, because this has a bias towards it, I think you may find that the money in this instance you referred to was retrieved relatively quickly in the end. As well as this, there has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.

Secondly, no money is free from fraud, in fact there are huge scams (cross continent) happening every day with people being scammed out of life savings by faux investment companies that are targeting particularly old people out of their pensions and the rest, past the generic email or phone call you get from someone trying to pretend to be amazon.

I think at one point within the last couple of years before or during the time the new £1 coin came out the government estimated or anti fraud agencies estimated there were around £40million in fake pound coins in circulation at any time in the UK alone.

Also, the fact you get money back from a bank if your account is emptied is A) not 100% or guaranteed  and B) secondly is a proviso of the fact that banks and the majority of assets they sell or have are insured due to being regulated.

There is a huge amount of work being done globally to create a harmonious regulation to ease and acknowledge the growth of cryptocurrencies and with that will come some added security, or the added security you say the space lacks currently.

That being said, as someone who uses both, I currently feel that actually my crypto is more secure if not equally as secure as money in my bank.

There are multiple layers of authentification on both, they're personalised and I have increasing autonomy on how I manage that (e.g. I can freeze bank cards temporarily but immediately through apps).

[Statto]

What a load of bullsh1t, as per 90% of this thread.
The point Plodder is making is that if HSBC are robbed, you, the deposit holder, don't lose your savings. Even in the event that the theft ruins the bank, you're protected by the state through the FSCS.
Situation is totally different on crypto platforms where, as the article shows, the customer loses out.
It also sticks a pretty big pin in the idea that the tech makes crypto harder to steal in the first place. Evidently not that hard.

Cannot believe the point has even been made that, "oh but the thieves gave the money back in this case" as if a consumer should take some comfort from that - laughable

[blingo]

The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

[Luka]

This thread started on 27/7 @ 10.30  and anyone that was motivated to buy a Bitcoin at that time paid circa £27300 for it.
There may be some crooks out there that steal your car, your bike or indeed your Bitcoins.
But those that did can take solice in the fact that their bitcoin is now valued at £32800 and if they are are spooked they can sell it within seconds !!

[Statto]

The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.

[Plodder]

I think you may find that the money in this instance you referred to was retrieved relatively quickly in the end. As well as this, there has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.

Sorry, "the money was retrieved relatively quickly" is a very misleading interpretation.  No detective work "retrieved" the money. The hacker decided to give some back (about a third so far). Had he or she not done so, none would have been retrieved. Even in the event of the hacker being caught, if he (I am not going to keep writing "he or she"!)  refuses to divulge the key to his wallet, the money is not going back to its rightful owners, and there is no equivalent to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme to bail out the innocent depositor.

There has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.

But this is not a case of individuals being scammed or victims of fraud; it is a case of their deposits being raided. Those holding cryptocurrencies have no other way of holding their "money".

Secondly, no money is free from fraud, in fact there are huge scams (cross continent) happening every day with people being scammed out of life savings by faux investment companies that are targeting particularly old people out of their pensions and the rest, past the generic email or phone call you get from someone trying to pretend to be amazon.

I think at one point within the last couple of years before or during the time the new £1 coin came out the government estimated or anti fraud agencies estimated there were around £40million in fake pound coins in circulation at any time in the UK alone.

You are conflating fraud (where people are conned out of their money) with theft of deposits (where the theft is from the institution holding the money).  The two are not the same.  In the first instance, the depositor is aware the money has gone. In the second, the theft of the deposit has nothing to do with the depositor.

Fake notes or coins in circulation are a red herring in terms of this subject. They don't reduce the amount in bank balances, and they have nothign to do with the security of crypto wallets.

Also, the fact you get money back from a bank if your account is emptied is A) not 100% or guaranteed  and B) secondly is a proviso of the fact that banks and the majority of assets they sell or have are insured due to being regulated.

If a bank is hacked and accounts are emptied, it is guaranteed (in most cases up to 100%, unless we are talking people with huge sums held by one institution) - if necessary, via the Financial Service Compensation Scheme.

[blingo]

The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.

And Blingo I'm not some antiquated financial adviser FYI. I actually work for a successful fintech that's not been around much longer than Bitcoin (acknowledging that Bitcoin has been around for some time now, and it's only people like you who think it's still groundbreaking). 

A diversified portfolio is always the right way Mr Statto. Crypto will eventually settle down and will also end up being regulated, because there won't be any other option. In the meantime its a case of make hay whilst the sun shines, which I don't see as a bad thing. As always, timing is of the essence and is also the hardest thing to get right as I'm sure you know. Finding the right product is difficult too, most promises on products never produce the figures they say they will and who gets fatter? certainly not the investor. Interest rates are through the floor, bonds are a waste of time, CFD's and Forex are a definite no no unless you really know what you are doing and stocks are hardly setting the world alight. Gold has fallen over $200 an ounce lately whist Bitcoin continues to rise, at the moment. The volatility of crypto is clear and has been discussed to the full, but the bigger the risk the bigger the reward or loss as you know. By the same token we cannot ignore the institutional money that has gone into the likes of BC and ETH, the applications for ETF's and it's just time before they come into effect. Again I would stress to anyone, if you are not sure and have not done your homework, do not under any circumstances invest in any field you are not sure of. I take my hat off to you Sir for answering :54:

ps. It's not a matter of if BC will hit $100k, but when. :dft012: ETH will hit $10k.  Blingo is sitting on some serious gains but will probably sell just before. As Rothschild said, sell 15% before the top and leave some for the next guy. So I'm never greedy and I've never known anyone go skint by taking a profit

[Plodder]

Some people decide to make speculative investments, seduced by siren calls from those who are already invested and therefore talk up their asset class because they need fresh investors to get caught up in the frenzy, so that they themselves can sell and realise their huge profits before the top of the market is reached. That's an investment decision for individuals to make, and we can't compensate people if they lose substantial amounts and massively enrich others through being foolish and/or greedy.  However, that's different from all your money (fiat or crypto) vanishing overnight from wherever it is held.

My concern is the conflation of a speculative investment vehicle with real, meaningful currency, and the implications of that.  Unregulated currencies not backed by government and with no compensation scheme in the event of theft, would have drastic consequences for society if adopted widely as a means of exchange, for reasons already discussed at length in this thread.

[Somerset Fulham]

The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.

This is 100% correct in my view. I'm really quite surprised that more people aren't agreeing with Statto on this one.

[Oakeshott]

"do not under any circumstances invest in any field you are not sure of"

That seems to me to be the best advice on this thread.

[blingo]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.

So no one lost money with the likes of Barlow Clowes Mr P? There are multiple risks in all investments. Banks will never guarantee returns on ANY investment. Unregulated investments alway carry more risk but also the potential of greater returns. It is a case of caveat emptor, and as I have said before, if you're not sure, DO NOT INVEST. To imply that all unregulated investments are a death knell on your money is a little unfair. Is wine a bad investment? not if you work with a reliable company. The problem is the amount of cowboy and rip off firms out there sucking in the vulnerable through their greed. Personally I would never invest in anything that started with a cold call. If it's that good, then why are you calling ME??? Investment is about doing your research and when you think you have it right, go over it all again to make sure, check everything at least twice. You can not in all fairness say that if you had invested in the likes of Bitcoin 5 years ago that you would be in the red. A rocky ride, certainly, but also big profits, had you just bought and held, I'm not the day trading type. I can't agree with all you say as you seem to prefer the super safe level of investment, but I do agree that at least 80-90% of your investments should be safe, the problem nowadays is what do you classify as a safe investment?

[RaySmith]

A reporter or someone who travelled internationally, across borders, in countries where there is conflict, was quoted as saying word to the effect of-

'if I'm stopped by border guards who don't want to let me go through, i could offer them dollars, which may not be immediately useful to them, gold, even more so, but at least they could put these in their pockets, hope they might be useful at some point;
but if took out my phone and  offered them Bitcoins from my personal wallet, to be transferred into their own virtual wallet on their own phone, well, they might not even have a smart phone, and not know what i was talking about.'

Cash is always useful to have with you for emergencies, or at least a valid cc.

Though once i was in France, in Lyons, on a trip to Bob Dylan concert in St Etienne, and the cash machine wouldn't take my card, so i walked into what i thought was the bank, when i saw the Credit Lyonnaise sign, and i woman walked out from the back of the office shouting 'Non non' as i waved my credit card, but i doubt that Bitcoins would have been  much help in this situation.

[jayffc]

A reporter or someone who travelled internationally, across borders, in countries where there is conflict, was quoted as saying word to the effect of-

'if I'm stopped by border guards who don't want to let me go through, i could offer them dollars, which may not be immediately useful to them, gold, even more so, but at least they could put these in their pockets, hope they might be useful at some point;
but if took out my phone and  offered them Bitcoins from my personal wallet, to be transferred into their own virtual wallet on their own phone, well, they might not even have a smart phone, and not know what i was talking about.'

Cash is always useful to have with you for emergencies, or at least a valid cc.

Though once i was in France, in Lyons, on a trip to Bob Dylan concert in St Etienne, and the cash machine wouldn't take my card, so i walked into what i thought was the bank, when i saw the Credit Lyonnaise sign, and i woman walked out from the back of the office shouting 'Non non' as i waved my credit card, but i doubt that Bitcoins would have been  much help in this situation.

FWIW World Mobile are literally all about providing an affordable mobile connection to remote parts of the world and banking the unbanked. + you can change your crypto back to fiat if you so wished at any moment. Also - I actually agree that I dont wish to exist in a completely cashless society (which is what privacy coins are in the digital space) but the banks already seem to be wanting to move us away from cash as it is.

There are also always things of value you could carry with you in such a scenario as you mention (jewellery, watches) tangible real objects of course will always still be useful

[blingo]

Fiat money will never cease to exist, that's a fact. However, the movement and store of money is changing and it is highly unlikely that that will not continue both as a means of changing, transferring or using crypto as a money source. Our choices are to go with it or stick with traditional methods. Who would have said in the 70s that mobile phones would exist? Who would have said that we could travel by plane in 1900? Its called progress. Our kids live in the age of technical revolution and we can't stop it, so why not go with it? Google or amazon shares in the early 90s would have been a great investment if we had had the foresight on how things would change. For me personally bc and eth are the same as Google back then. Time will tell if I am right, but I now run on free money as I recouped my initial investment back a while ago.