Author Topic: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?  (Read 2719 times)

Offline finnster01

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New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« on: January 20, 2011, 04:40:22 AM »
This will never work.

There are too many pro sports franchises already in NYC/NJ, plus I am sure NY Red Bulls will say  :tom: on top

NY Jets
NY Giants
NY Rangers
NY Knicks
NY Islanders
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
NY Red Bulls

Even for New York, that is a lot competing for the same fan dollars
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 04:43:47 AM by finnster01 »

Offline AmericanJames

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 04:54:08 AM »
The MLS wants another team in the area tho, i can see it happening tho I would prefer to see teams to go into new areas such as Detroit (my personal 1st choice) but also Atlanta, St. Louis, a re-entry to the market in Florida, Montreal and then maybe a 2nd NY franchise.

Offline HatterDon

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2011, 05:45:48 AM »
St. Louis is a natural hotbed for soccer in the USA. It is criminal that MLS doesn't have a franchise there.


Offline Pata

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 10:37:56 AM »
Is there any reason why the Yankees and the Mets were left out of that list? PS Every Cantona interview I've read in the past few years is a tedious combination of utter b*llocks and self-promotion, so I am not quite sure what value he'll add to the actual running of the club.

Offline finnster01

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 02:35:04 PM »
Is there any reason why the Yankees and the Mets were left out of that list? PS Every Cantona interview I've read in the past few years is a tedious combination of utter b*llocks and self-promotion, so I am not quite sure what value he'll add to the actual running of the club.
Good point.

Can't believe I left out NY Mets and NY Yankees... :doh:

Point is still the same. Going to a pro game (regardless of sport) is a very expensive affair, especially for families. Not sure what Red Bull charges for tickets though and I would have thought it would be better for the game to put it in a place like St Louis like Mr Hatter suggests


duffbeer

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 04:58:03 PM »
This will never work.

There are too many pro sports franchises already in NYC/NJ, plus I am sure NY Red Bulls will say  :tom: on top

NY Jets
NY Giants
NY Rangers
NY Knicks
NY Islanders
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
NY Red Bulls

Even for New York, that is a lot competing for the same fan dollars


Finn, I can see an American saying this but I'm surprized you do.  Doesnt the London area have five football teams in the Prem alone.  I dont know how many if you count the lower leagues,  add Watford, QPR, Crystal Palace, any more?  I have to think NY can support two soccer teams.  The teams listed are in so many different sports that I dont really think it's the same fan dollar.  

Anyway, if there can only be one soccer team in NY, it will have to be the Cosmos.  As Cantona said himself the Cosmos are a "legendary" team.  And even though they are actually only a legend and not a real team with players and a stadium, the Red Bulls will still have to be the ones to go.  

But if you insist, Cleveland Cosmos works fine for me. 


Offline finnster01

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 08:19:48 PM »
Not so sure NY can support two clubs, Ms Duff. I think the whole Cantona and Cosmos is codespeak for MLS gearing up for a new media and TV rights deal and trying to throw in some "goodies" along the way. They should have done that earlier and done more out of the WC than what they did. I am not impressed with their marketing and outreach. They seem to be more focused on little cliques of fans (such as certain pocket of fans from NJ, various wannabe hooligans, and certain ethnics etc) rather than the broader fan market.

But that is just my observation in passing. You guys have been following the MLS for years so have a much better view of it. However, I will say New York is full of people whether it is second/third generation immigrants, ex-pats like me, etc. that wouldn't mind the odd day out for a game. However, Red Bull/MLS is doing a damn good job not really reaching out. Why should I jump on 3-4 trains after work when I can watch CL, Europa League, Prem, FA Cup, and God only knows which other league you want anywhere in the world in a packed pub with big screens and great banter? There's got to be a bit more effort thrown in for me to make the extra effort. May as well just take the train for 10 mins and watch the Yankees instead.

Red Bull averages about 17000'ish bums in seats with a brand new (and lovely looking from the outside, never been inside yet)stadium that has a capacity north of 25000. Apparently not difficult to get tickets unless Beckham and Donovan comes to town. Since noboby watches MLS on TV, even in a WC year, I can only see a Cosmos enter with bravado (just like last time) and peter out.

I hope I am wrong, but if I had the funds to invest in a new MLS club, I wouldn't do it in New York.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 08:21:49 PM by finnster01 »

duffbeer

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 01:59:43 PM »
With the closest MLS team 2 1/2 hours away, I really have no idea what their marketing to the locals is like.  But you saying that they could do a better job marketing to the broader fan base doesnt surprise me.  I'm sure they are missing out on a lot of would-be ticket sales.  I've always been amazed by the number of adults I know who played footbal as a kid and now have their lives revolve around the sport due to their children's involvement in the youth league, but then these same people pay no attention to the professional or international game.  They dont even watch it on TV.  There has got to be a way to get these people interested.

That being said, soccer and MLS is still a tough sell in the US.  If people go to a baseball, basketball, or American football game, they know that by and large they are seeing the best there is.  As we all know this is not true with MLS.  The best North American players arent even in MLS.  So what d'ya do?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:01:50 PM by duffbeer »

Offline HatterDon

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 02:49:34 PM »
With the closest MLS team 2 1/2 hours away, I really have no idea what their marketing to the locals is like.  But you saying that they could do a better job marketing to the broader fan base doesnt surprise me.  I'm sure they are missing out on a lot of would-be ticket sales.  I've always been amazed by the number of adults I know who played footbal as a kid and now have their lives revolve around the sport due to their children's involvement in the youth league, but then these same people pay no attention to the professional or international game.  They dont even watch it on TV.  There has got to be a way to get these people interested.

That being said, soccer and MLS is still a tough sell in the US.  If people go to a baseball, basketball, or American football game, they know that by and large they are seeing the best there is.  As we all know this is not true with MLS.  The best North American players arent even in MLS.  So what d'ya do?

I happily go to see the San Antonio Missions play even though they are in the third tier of professional baseball. I am also aware that, unlike MLS, the purpose of the Missions is NOT to win championships but to develop players for MLB.  I go because I have a love for the game and because the franchise works hard to provide a comfortable and enjoyable setting for an evening out. I really don't think that MLS has to sell Americans on anything more than they have the best players making their living in the United States.

The trick in the United States has always been not losing all those children who play soccer once their playing days are over.


Offline Steve_orino

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 11:29:54 PM »
St. Louis is a natural hotbed for soccer in the USA. It is criminal that MLS doesn't have a franchise there.

That's what happens when a Football(American) Guy is in charge of the Football League.

You also get a playoff system where a team in the Mountain time zone wins the "Eastern Conference".  Also, the number 7 seed has a better chance of getting to the finals than the 1, 2, or 4 seeds do.  We now have 10 teams out of 18 going to the playoffs - just ho-hum your way through the regular season & get hot in the playoffs...I digress...

I'm really trying to take more of an interest in MLS, I watched more games last year than in the previous 10 years combined, but some of the things/rules/set-ups in place are idiotic  :035:  The NY Cosmos will get a team because that's what the League thinks it needs.  Just like Chivas USA is in the League...the FO of the League thinks it can create rivalries rather than letting them happen naturally.

Offline finnster01

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 04:33:12 PM »
St. Louis is a natural hotbed for soccer in the USA. It is criminal that MLS doesn't have a franchise there.

That's what happens when a Football(American) Guy is in charge of the Football League.

You also get a playoff system where a team in the Mountain time zone wins the "Eastern Conference".  Also, the number 7 seed has a better chance of getting to the finals than the 1, 2, or 4 seeds do.  We now have 10 teams out of 18 going to the playoffs - just ho-hum your way through the regular season & get hot in the playoffs...I digress...

I'm really trying to take more of an interest in MLS, I watched more games last year than in the previous 10 years combined, but some of the things/rules/set-ups in place are idiotic  :035:  The NY Cosmos will get a team because that's what the League thinks it needs.  Just like Chivas USA is in the League...the FO of the League thinks it can create rivalries rather than letting them happen naturally.
That's a very good point, Mr Steve. You can't create rivalries, they just happen. Just because two teams are in the same city doesn't make it a rivalry either. Fulham - Chelsea isn't a rivalry if you ask Chelsea fans. Yankees - Mets isn't a rivalry either unless it is a subway series. Regular season interleague matches are OK, but they are not as crazy as people outside of NYC think they are. Yankees - Red Sox certainly is. NYYanks and Philly are beginning to become one. NY Giants vs NY Jets, nobody cares more than normal. NY Giants vs Philly or Jets vs New England, bring a weapon for your own protection even if you watch it in a bar. Many more examples I am sure if I put some thought into it.

So if the MLS is out to create artificial rivalries rather than look for "hot beds" of fans, they will continue to lose.


Offline Steve_orino

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 08:02:10 PM »
Re: Fulham vs. Chelsea - I'm sure if you asked Galaxy fans if they have a rivalry with Chivas USA, that most would say there isn't.

MLS has done a great job in getting franchises in Seattle & Toronto and we can see the passion in the stadiums (Of course, Seattle games are the only games that ESPN & MLS will show but that's another pet peave) We now have Vancouver & Portland coming into the League & these two franchises have great fanbases, in addition to a rivalry that's been established over the past 30-40 years with Seattle. 

Maybe it has to do with money or stadium issues but St Louis just seems like a no-brainer.  Heck, move Chivas USA to St Louis...


Offline Ag

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 09:09:48 PM »
I'd avoid putting a franchise in FL.  Outside of the NFL, they typically have attendance problems, especially in the summer.

I'd shoot markets that don't have baseball unless you have a known soccer hotbed (like St Louis).  I'd also take a look at successful NBA markets that don't have football.  Portland, San Antonio and Utah weren't basketball towns, but b/c the franchises were the only game in town they developed good followings.  Soccer can and likely will do the same.

Chivas need to be re-branded and likely moved.  I don't like the idea of any city having 2 franchises at this point.

Agree on the rivalries.  You just have to let these things play out and develop themselves.

FatFreddysCat

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 10:38:32 PM »
Would most Yanks even know who cantona is?

Offline AmericanJames

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 12:50:53 AM »
Would most Yanks even know who cantona is?

I dont know, other than those who follow the game probably not. He hasn't been relevant to the American sports media in a long time if ever. If you asked a casual American sports fan to name more than 20 footballers they probably couldn't (I bet my roommate to name 15 the other night and he couldn't) and the names you would here would most likely be Ronaldo, Beckham, Donovan, Zidane, Ronaldino, Rooney, Adu, maybe a handful of USMNT players and a few others.

I have only really been following football for about 5 or 6 years now (I am only 22 so give me a break) but to be honest if I hadn't started looking up the history of the game and watching all kinds of youtube clips I wouldn't know who he is.


Offline HatterDon

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 06:03:41 AM »
Would most Yanks even know who cantona is?

I dont know, other than those who follow the game probably not. He hasn't been relevant to the American sports media in a long time if ever. If you asked a casual American sports fan to name more than 20 footballers they probably couldn't (I bet my roommate to name 15 the other night and he couldn't) and the names you would here would most likely be Ronaldo, Beckham, Donovan, Zidane, Ronaldino, Rooney, Adu, maybe a handful of USMNT players and a few others.

I have only really been following football for about 5 or 6 years now (I am only 22 so give me a break) but to be honest if I hadn't started looking up the history of the game and watching all kinds of youtube clips I wouldn't know who he is.

AJ, you're probably too young to remember, but he was the public face for Nike in their promo for the 2006 World Cup in Germany. I think he'd be well known from that. Also, anyone who watches Premier Leauge World on a regular basis will also know Cantona, since he's referenced about every 3 weeks.

Offline AmericanJames

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 06:31:34 AM »
That was right around the time I started to watch and quickly became a fan of a young the American named Clint Dempsey. I do not remember Nike Cantona campaign but I do remember the little rap video Clint made for them.

As for those among us who tune in to FSC regularly or any other means of watching the PL for that matter, I was not taking them into consideration. That is due to the fact that I believe that clearly the group behind the new Cosmos wants to follow a business and acquisition model that they employed in the original NASL days (or atleast from what I have gathered from my research of the situation). Bringing in names and attempting to attract, atleast to some degree, people whom would not normally choose to attend a match. In some ways like what the Galaxy attempted to do with Beckham. Which if these new fans (a term to be used loosely in this  situation) come to enjoy the game and the fan base grows I would be all in favor, as long as it doesn't make a mockery of the league like Beckham has, and the group doesn't make a mockery of the business model that the MLS has used to continue it's slow but steady growth.

duffbeer

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Re: New York Cosmos? Again? Cantona?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2011, 12:44:06 AM »
Re: Fulham vs. Chelsea - I'm sure if you asked Galaxy fans if they have a rivalry with Chivas USA, that most would say there isn't.

MLS has done a great job in getting franchises in Seattle & Toronto and we can see the passion in the stadiums (Of course, Seattle games are the only games that ESPN & MLS will show but that's another pet peave) We now have Vancouver & Portland coming into the League & these two franchises have great fanbases, in addition to a rivalry that's been established over the past 30-40 years with Seattle.  

Maybe it has to do with money or stadium issues but St Louis just seems like a no-brainer.  Heck, move Chivas USA to St Louis...

I know St. Louis has a great history but they were awarded a NASL team this last season and it was a train wreck by accounts from St.Lou Brad on FUSA.  They fired thier coach during a rare win streak and let Steve Ralston go without even informing the fans/media.  They've lost money and wont be back this season.  In contrast, Cleveland City Stars came in second thier first year in USL 2, won the league their second year (Don will remember this as he was stalking me at the time), and then were promoted to Div 1 for their third season with accolades about how they were the model for all the other new clubs out there to follow.   Then with the NASL breakaway nonsense, US soccer just left Cleveland out in the cold with no explanation to the fans from anyone.  I still cant believe how they have taken no responsibility for their fateful decision to promote Cleveland.  It was a nice family friendly club and a nice night out in downtown Cleveland with some real soccer fans and I miss it,  a lot!    At least throw us a bone with a Gold Cup match or something.  Anyway, suffice it say I'm not feeling sorry for St. Lou at the moment.  

And as far as Don Garber goes, i'm pretty happy with him as I think he is generally trying to do what is best for MLS and what is best to maintain parity.  Garbers model that was used in the NFL actually came from Branch Rickey, the legendary general manager of the Dodgers.  I think the ideas are pretty applicable to any type of sports league.  Just compare Garbers and MLS's decisions to those of  FIFA or the FA (like the recent decison to fine Ian Hollaway) and I think we should feel pretty lucky he is involved.  As far as MLS trying to artificially create rivalries and derbies , has MLS ever said that is why Chivas USA was awarded an MLS team?  I have no idea, but to me it seemed an acknowledgement and a purposeful inclusion of our hispanic and soccer enthusiastic population - a good thing.  They may be hoping a rivalry develops but even if it doesnt having teams close to each other is a good idea I would think in that it helps both rteams sell tickets because it is easier for away fans to travel.  In general I think many US soccer fans are too cynical when it comes to judging the actions of MLS, Gulati, Garber and the likes.  We are still in the early days and things are still pretty pure, I'm enjoying it.  Except for the Cleveland bit, but I plan to have a word or two with Randy Lerner and brad Freidel.   :dft012:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:13:49 AM by duffbeer »