Symons v Warburton

[FPT]

You've made a good case FPT for looking closely at Warburton's credentials, while overlooking Long's instant impact and other clever adjustments (LB for example). Yet you rate Kit higher? Can you perhaps list what Kit has been getting right, only all supporters I know are adamant he persists with the wrong formation and should never have dispensed with Matt Smith's services.

By a clever adjustment at left back, do you mean Jake Bidwell? The same Jake Bidwell that has been at Brentford - on and off - since 2011?

Whilst Chris Long's impact has been impressive, 3 goals in 9 appearances, 7 from the bench; I think that it adds to my "sprinkle" point. He's sprinkled his side with that little bit more quality that they needed. But could you not argue that same that Kit came in and Hugo made an impact straight away? Christensen and McCormack both had their performances pick up? There's Pavel Pogrebnyak also... Scored for fun when he joined - didn't prove him to be the finished article as he's dwindled at Reading on big wages for near three years.

Now, at no point have I claimed Kit to be better than Warburton, nor said that it was my opinion that Kit Symons was the better of the two - however, what I have done is attempted to dampen the hype surrounding Mark Warburton. What has happened in recent months is our manager has been chewed up and spat out with his previous accomplishments forgotten, but a manager like Mark Warburton has an easier job to do and is praised for succeeding, and lusted as our new man.

I'm simply arguing against Mark Warburton and giving an opposing view point. Everyone is happy to look at what Warburton has achieved, but isn't happy to recognise the smooth ship he took over.

[fulhamphil]

Dug out the article - sorry my mistake on position. It was the RB they picked up from Orient. 'Blistering pace' apparently down the flanks. Let's see Friday.
http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663

[YoungsBitter]

What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark"

[fulhamphil]

"Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work"

That may be harsh, but certainly sums up the reign of Jol and his retinue of hangers on. Appreciate the post YB - the infrastructure for UK staffing in the game is deeply flawed and over reliant on jobs for the boys. The article you refer to is a wake up call for all.

John Barnes moans he hasn't had a job in four years because there is a colour bar. Or is it simply because he's no good at management? Systems for recruitment, monitoring performance, managing expenditure and forward planning through all four divisions in a game drowning with TV money are frighteningly unscientific.

With his City background Warburton is ahead of the curve and recognises this.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark"

I think the key to Warburton's departure is the 'moneyball' model. A Director of football can work in different ways from overseer of everything except standing on the touchline to Chief Scout. I suggest that Rigg will likely play a role nearer the latter so that would not exclude working with Warburton.

Clubs including Fulham have been using analytics for years. A colleague had worked with Wimbledon around the time they reached the Cup Final. It is nothing new.

I am sure that things can be learnt from the statistics but the article goes way over the top. we don't need statistics to tell us that we concede too many goals from set pieces. What the statistics don't tell you is how to improve that statistic. That's why you need good coaches.

Also, how much of the Danish clubs improvement comes from their crop of good youngsters? So 70% of goals come from a certain area so 30% don't. Etc..

Your assessments of Sherwood, Warburton and Kit are harsh and unjustified. Warburton went up in my estimation because he stood up against the simplistic approach being implemented by Benham.

[FPT]

Dug out the article - sorry my mistake on position. It was the RB they picked up from Orient. 'Blistering pace' apparently down the flanks. Let's see Friday.
http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663

Yes, that's Moses Odubajo, one of the better wingers from League One last season - as I noted, only Bakary Sako and Ben Pringle the only reasons why he wasn't in the Team of the Year also.

It's worked in that Mo's pace aids his defensive frailties, but Odubajo is still a winger. I'd argue that its also a case of necessity, Brentford are without a capable right back - Nico Yennaris is on loan at Wycombe. It's the same as playing Ross or Kaca behind the strikers if Ruiz isn't available for me.

[YoungsBitter]

What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark"

I think the key to Warburton's departure is the 'moneyball' model. A Director of football can work in different ways from overseer of everything except standing on the touchline to Chief Scout. I suggest that Rigg will likely play a role nearer the latter so that would not exclude working with Warburton.

Clubs including Fulham have been using analytics for years. A colleague had worked with Wimbledon around the time they reached the Cup Final. It is nothing new.

I am sure that things can be learnt from the statistics but the article goes way over the top. we don't need statistics to tell us that we concede too many goals from set pieces. What the statistics don't tell you is how to improve that statistic. That's why you need good coaches.

Also, how much of the Danish clubs improvement comes from their crop of good youngsters? So 70% of goals come from a certain area so 30% don't. Etc..

Your assessments of Sherwood, Warburton and Kit are harsh and unjustified. Warburton went up in my estimation because he stood up against the simplistic approach being implemented by Benham.

I am not suggesting that its only a question of statistical analysis and coaching has no role and nor do I believe Benham is that simplistic or naive either. I read often how "stats" have been used for years yet see little signs of it:
How about lining up every week in the same formation regardless of who we play and how they play? Not much sign of deep analysis there?
Teams we play make subs and changes at half time and we seem to have no understanding of the tactical impact and do not respond. Not much sign of competitive analysis there, yet Kit goes and watches/scouts the opposition. What does he do when he is there?
The most value of deep analysis in the over hyped and often misunderstood application of 'Moneyball' is actually to spot under valued talent which drives your recruitment policy. Surely that in itself should be something we appreciate after the last 3-4 years transfer activity?
The analysis you need ranges from player evaluation, competitive tactical, squad performance and depth and lets not forget physical strength and performance data - perhaps LVC's premature return is an example of that not being applied.
I may be harsh on Sherwood, perhaps he does actually do those things although his moniker Tactics Tim is ironic. He does have leadership qualities - as a player he acted like that in the changing room wherever he played. Warburton again from interviews I have watched is not stupid. He does have an ego though and his approach is more out of Glengarry Glenross than Moneyball. He believes in the passion but I believe his objections about his role as it developed at Brentford was more about loss of power than disbelief in statistical analysis.
Kit has yet to demonstrate to me anything other than a guy slightly out of his depth in all departments assisted by a bunch of ex player mates. So yes I am being harsh but the evidence I see each game does little to change my opinion: no major shift in tactics, only slight improvement in use of subs, constantly shipping soft goals etc.

[fulhamphil]

We've come full circle and arrived back at the proposition: Who would make the better manager for FFC? I hate making predictions, and while I would love to see us click on the day with a repeat of the Derby performance I fear Brentford are going to have our number Friday when it comes to tactics.

[westcliff white]

For me of the choice is warburton or SYmons then I would go for Symons, they are about the sam ein experience, so give a true FFC man the chance.

Thats only if the choice is between those two

[Woolly Mammoth]

We may learn a lot more about both Managers on Friday after the match has been played.