Friday gives us all a chance to examine close up which manager can draw the best from his team. How ironic if a strong performance from the Bees results in growing sentiment to install Warburton as Kit's replacement. The following thoughts got posted last week but were overtaken by speculation re McCarthy and others and thread died. Here it is again.
Debating 'the next Fulham manager' divides opinion among fans and only underlines the complexity our owner faces in getting the appointment right. Would you seriously fancy taking on the responsibility and risking the wrath of Khan? Our club really cannot afford to get it wrong again after the string of disastrous executive decisions post Hughes.
From the blatant courting of Bruce and paper talk linking us to McCarthy do we assume Kit's days are already numbered regardless of where we finish? Executive decisions based on emotion or poor research will eventually unravel. Why should football be any different? We are 14 seasons on from the Tigana side that swept into the Prem with the best football seen at the Cottage since the 1950's. He aint coming back and there's no way to rewind the clock. The emotionally turbulent Rafa Benitez riding to the rescue for a 46 game schedule of Championship rough and tumble? Take a reality check. Journeymen failures like the bleating Lambert, Adkins or Poyet? Is that the way forward?
Tigana and his staff took a cerebral approach to the game - and the ideal lieutenant for that on the pitch was John Collins. Spend some time researching the web/local West London papers and you cannot fail to be impressed by Mark Warburton's credentials. A self-made millionaire with no imperative to succeed on the pitch apart from the goals he sets for himself - with an incisive, analytical and unemotional approach to setting up sides. Just like Tigana. Consider this quick snapshot of Brentford's progress in comparison to our own decline. They have five in the U-20 sides this week. Alex Pritchard is on loan from Spurs, a player Warburton says is 'nailed on' to make a big impression in the Premiership. Chris Long is a striker from Everton's academy who Warburton says he's been tracking since he was 13. And Brentford have a very promising wide player in John Toral, who has come through the academies of Barcelona and Arsenal. What a trick Warburton pulled in getting Pritchard from Spurs on loan - a scorer this week in Germany.
How come Fulham fail to recruit from other London clubs on our doorstep? Look what Bamford has done up on Teeside for Boro. Seems to me we are missing a trick or two consistently here with our scouting policy. When it comes to putting in the hard graft beyond matchday the more I read up on Warburton's career path the more I like.
So we have missed a trick by not loaning other London teams youth players, even though our own youth players have dominated everyone of late
Sorry to be dense, but if our own youth players 'have been dominating everyone of late' why are we sweating on a relegation battle?
Any chance of getting our managers name right?
I'm sorry but this is so blinkered. Shall we just close our academy and develop everybody else's young talent? We have invested and believed in our own youth players because that is what we've built for 7 years to achieve. We have Fulham academy players contributing to over 200 appearances this season for the football club.
Marcus Bettinelli
Jesse Joronen
Jack Grimmer
Dan Burn
Sean Kavanagh
Alex Kacaniklic
Lasse Vigen Christensen
Emerson Hyndman
Ryan Williams
Patrick Roberts
George Williams
Moussa Dembele
Cauley Woodrow
But lets get rid of all of them and shut down the academy for a couple of loanees.
Quote from: fulhamphil on March 31, 2015, 05:33:16 PM
Sorry to be dense, but if our own youth players 'have been dominating everyone of late' why are we sweating on a relegation battle?
I presume he means at Academy level. Two U18 titles, and U18 League final, a Dallas Cup and a FA Youth Cup final in three years is pretty dominant.
The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.
Quote from: fulhamphil on March 31, 2015, 06:13:43 PM
The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.
.
You have made some very good points, and Mark Warburton will be available for selection come the end of the season, as will one or two other candidates. It remains to be seen if Kit Symons can finish the season on a high with both results and performances, to make any impact or influence Fulham FC, to give him more time. Or has the Die already been cast and will he be replaced after the final match. As we all know, one way or another, Fulham FC have to get their judgement and decision right, they cannot afford any more errors of judgement, as they have already taken their toll.
Quote from: fulhamphil on March 31, 2015, 06:13:43 PM
The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.
You've made no debate for Kit though - you've hyped up Mark Warburton, which is deserved on his behalf, but your debate appeared to be Mark Warburton picking up loanees.
Lets discuss how Mark Warburton is working with a largely settled side that have been there for at least two years prior to Warburton's appointment, leaving Warburton with the easier job of sprinkling on top of an already well oiled machine.
Credit wear it is due, to pick up Jota was inspirational, and gambling on Andre Gray has proved excellent business - but I don't think he's done anything that anybody with an eye would have done. Alex Pritchard was nominated for 2014's Football League Young Player of the Year, and Moses Odubajo was turning in excellent performances for Leyton Orient last season, and was perhaps unlucky that two wide players were just better than him in being named in the 2014 League One Team of the Year.
I would argue that Mark Warburton had a lot easier job than Kit Symons, Kit came into an unsettled side with a number of new players and academy graduates trying to adjust to academy football and has - just about - succeeded. Of course, we could have done a lot better given our initial form, although I don't think any of us will complain with a fairly safe position come the end of the season - given we had 1 point after 8 games.
We have Rotherham and Wigan at home, as well as the derby and Charlton away. We get 9 points from those and we'll be well clear and could shoot ourselves up into a satisfactory lower-mid table spot.
Kit had a harder job, and it gets no easier for him with the summer window coming up. Where for Mark Warburton, he continues to only require sprinkling onto his side.
I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton
Re Brentford's team only requiring some 'sprinkles' from Warburton he began the season dispensing with the front 2 from the promotion squad. Donaldson at 31 was granted a free to Birmingham (18 goals) and Trotta (13) was sent back to us deemed not good enough for the Ch'ship, a fact confirmed by subsequent events. He has improved massively on Rosler's team since taking the reins in December 2013.
I respectfully disagree Phil, but thats the beauty if this board we all have our opinions
Quote from: Lighthouse on March 31, 2015, 05:37:00 PM
Any chance of getting our managers name right?
Thankyou.
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton
Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 31, 2015, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton
Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?
I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 31, 2015, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton
Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?
I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.
But that limits us to managers who have shown that they have experience with more resources, most of whom will have also disappointed on occasions with those extra resources.
And how is a manager like Warburton starting out at a 'small' club ever going to get the experience to move up?
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 31, 2015, 09:40:28 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 31, 2015, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 31, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton
Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?
I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.
But that limits us to managers who have shown that they have experience with more resources, most of whom will have also disappointed on occasions with those extra resources.
And how is a manager like Warburton starting out at a 'small' club ever going to get the experience to move up?
I dont care how he gets it, just dont htink in my opinion it should be with us as we might as well stick with Kit then.
Personally I would stick with Kit over Warburton as you can use the same arguement about Kit, so if the choice is between them I would stick with Kit.
Quote from: fulhamphil on March 31, 2015, 08:21:25 PM
Re Brentford's team only requiring some 'sprinkles' from Warburton he began the season dispensing with the front 2 from the promotion squad. Donaldson at 31 was granted a free to Birmingham (18 goals) and Trotta (13) was sent back to us deemed not good enough for the Ch'ship, a fact confirmed by subsequent events. He has improved massively on Rosler's team since taking the reins in December 2013.
He replaced Clayton Donaldson and Marcello Trotta who were their top goal scorers from the last season, you are correct, and he has replaced those goals from the two with Andre Gray, a good signing which I admitted. Clayton Donaldson was not "granted" a free, Donaldson rejected Brentford's offer of a new contract - plus, I would still concur that he's not dealing with a squad overhaul like Kit had to, making it worse that the overhaul wasn't in his hands. He's lost a striker and didn't want another, gambling successfully on Andre Gray.
He has made Uwe Rosler's side better - but as I said earlier, it's easier to make a side better when the core of the squad was already strong. He's loaned in Alex Pritchard and Jota with successful results, and also Alan Judge has strong assist statistics.
I would much rather have had Warburton's task than Symons'.
Alex Mccleish is also available at the end of the season, he us leaving Genk
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You've made a good case FPT for looking closely at Warburton's credentials, while overlooking Long's instant impact and other clever adjustments (LB for example). Yet you rate Kit higher? Can you perhaps list what Kit has been getting right, only all supporters I know are adamant he persists with the wrong formation and should never have dispensed with Matt Smith's services.
Quote from: fulhamphil on March 31, 2015, 11:10:58 PM
You've made a good case FPT for looking closely at Warburton's credentials, while overlooking Long's instant impact and other clever adjustments (LB for example). Yet you rate Kit higher? Can you perhaps list what Kit has been getting right, only all supporters I know are adamant he persists with the wrong formation and should never have dispensed with Matt Smith's services.
By a clever adjustment at left back, do you mean Jake Bidwell? The same Jake Bidwell that has been at Brentford - on and off - since 2011?
Whilst Chris Long's impact has been impressive, 3 goals in 9 appearances, 7 from the bench; I think that it adds to my "sprinkle" point. He's sprinkled his side with that little bit more quality that they needed. But could you not argue that same that Kit came in and Hugo made an impact straight away? Christensen and McCormack both had their performances pick up? There's Pavel Pogrebnyak also... Scored for fun when he joined - didn't prove him to be the finished article as he's dwindled at Reading on big wages for near three years.
Now, at no point have I claimed Kit to be better than Warburton, nor said that it was my opinion that Kit Symons was the better of the two - however, what I have done is attempted to dampen the hype surrounding Mark Warburton. What has happened in recent months is our manager has been chewed up and spat out with his previous accomplishments forgotten, but a manager like Mark Warburton has an easier job to do and is praised for succeeding, and lusted as our new man.
I'm simply arguing against Mark Warburton and giving an opposing view point. Everyone is happy to look at what Warburton has achieved, but isn't happy to recognise the smooth ship he took over.
Dug out the article - sorry my mistake on position. It was the RB they picked up from Orient. 'Blistering pace' apparently down the flanks. Let's see Friday.
http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663 (http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663)
What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark)"
"Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work"
That may be harsh, but certainly sums up the reign of Jol and his retinue of hangers on. Appreciate the post YB - the infrastructure for UK staffing in the game is deeply flawed and over reliant on jobs for the boys. The article you refer to is a wake up call for all.
John Barnes moans he hasn't had a job in four years because there is a colour bar. Or is it simply because he's no good at management? Systems for recruitment, monitoring performance, managing expenditure and forward planning through all four divisions in a game drowning with TV money are frighteningly unscientific.
With his City background Warburton is ahead of the curve and recognises this.
Quote from: YoungsBitter on April 01, 2015, 01:05:08 AM
What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark)"
I think the key to Warburton's departure is the 'moneyball' model. A Director of football can work in different ways from overseer of everything except standing on the touchline to Chief Scout. I suggest that Rigg will likely play a role nearer the latter so that would not exclude working with Warburton.
Clubs including Fulham have been using analytics for years. A colleague had worked with Wimbledon around the time they reached the Cup Final. It is nothing new.
I am sure that things can be learnt from the statistics but the article goes way over the top. we don't need statistics to tell us that we concede too many goals from set pieces. What the statistics don't tell you is how to improve that statistic. That's why you need good coaches.
Also, how much of the Danish clubs improvement comes from their crop of good youngsters? So 70% of goals come from a certain area so 30% don't. Etc..
Your assessments of Sherwood, Warburton and Kit are harsh and unjustified. Warburton went up in my estimation because he stood up against the simplistic approach being implemented by Benham.
Quote from: fulhamphil on April 01, 2015, 12:40:54 AM
Dug out the article - sorry my mistake on position. It was the RB they picked up from Orient. 'Blistering pace' apparently down the flanks. Let's see Friday.
http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663 (http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/warburton-delighted-how-odubajo-taken-8916663)
Yes, that's Moses Odubajo, one of the better wingers from League One last season - as I noted, only Bakary Sako and Ben Pringle the only reasons why he wasn't in the Team of the Year also.
It's worked in that Mo's pace aids his defensive frailties, but Odubajo is still a winger. I'd argue that its also a case of necessity, Brentford are without a capable right back - Nico Yennaris is on loan at Wycombe. It's the same as playing Ross or Kaca behind the strikers if Ruiz isn't available for me.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on April 01, 2015, 12:47:11 PM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on April 01, 2015, 01:05:08 AM
What I think some people are missing is that Warburton is leaving because he didnt buy into the European model that Benham wants. There are two facets to that, one: split coaching from acquiring and managing the talent pool - Head Coach and Director of Football; and two: use of statistical analysis and KPI's to drive rewards and performance.
So Khan has just signed Rigg as Director of Football, allbeit under a slightly different title which would suggest Warburton will look elsewhere as he already turned down the Head Coach role at Brentford. Secondly we want someone who can embrace that new approach ourselves - Symons seems neither smart enough or cute enough to use the new analytics - otherwise we would not keep shipping goals from set pieces.
There was a great article on Benham, Warburton and the new approach - with very mixed and insightful commentary at the end. Here is an excerpted comment that I think is critical:
Quote
" Those who get in early on the oncoming 'enlightenment' on football statistics and their application to tactics, coaching and player acquisition are going to do very well out of it, not just in their bank balances but on the pitch too.
When idiots like Sherwood can get Premier League managing jobs on basically having played the game, something isn't working. There is a smarter way to go about running a football club and basically casting aside all those hangers-on who are only in the game because of past playing experience and/or mates in the right places is the best way to go about it."
Sadly for us I think Kit and his team of assistants seem to be just that, former players and their mates. Warburton is no former player but he wants all the power and glory without the hard work.
Time for something new me thinks!
( if you are interested here is the article http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/22/brentford-mathematical-modelling-denmark)"
I think the key to Warburton's departure is the 'moneyball' model. A Director of football can work in different ways from overseer of everything except standing on the touchline to Chief Scout. I suggest that Rigg will likely play a role nearer the latter so that would not exclude working with Warburton.
Clubs including Fulham have been using analytics for years. A colleague had worked with Wimbledon around the time they reached the Cup Final. It is nothing new.
I am sure that things can be learnt from the statistics but the article goes way over the top. we don't need statistics to tell us that we concede too many goals from set pieces. What the statistics don't tell you is how to improve that statistic. That's why you need good coaches.
Also, how much of the Danish clubs improvement comes from their crop of good youngsters? So 70% of goals come from a certain area so 30% don't. Etc..
Your assessments of Sherwood, Warburton and Kit are harsh and unjustified. Warburton went up in my estimation because he stood up against the simplistic approach being implemented by Benham.
I am not suggesting that its only a question of statistical analysis and coaching has no role and nor do I believe Benham is that simplistic or naive either. I read often how "stats" have been used for years yet see little signs of it:
How about lining up every week in the same formation regardless of who we play and how they play? Not much sign of deep analysis there?
Teams we play make subs and changes at half time and we seem to have no understanding of the tactical impact and do not respond. Not much sign of competitive analysis there, yet Kit goes and watches/scouts the opposition. What does he do when he is there?
The most value of deep analysis in the over hyped and often misunderstood application of 'Moneyball' is actually to spot under valued talent which drives your recruitment policy. Surely that in itself should be something we appreciate after the last 3-4 years transfer activity?
The analysis you need ranges from player evaluation, competitive tactical, squad performance and depth and lets not forget physical strength and performance data - perhaps LVC's premature return is an example of that not being applied.
I may be harsh on Sherwood, perhaps he does actually do those things although his moniker Tactics Tim is ironic. He does have leadership qualities - as a player he acted like that in the changing room wherever he played. Warburton again from interviews I have watched is not stupid. He does have an ego though and his approach is more out of Glengarry Glenross than Moneyball. He believes in the passion but I believe his objections about his role as it developed at Brentford was more about loss of power than disbelief in statistical analysis.
Kit has yet to demonstrate to me anything other than a guy slightly out of his depth in all departments assisted by a bunch of ex player mates. So yes I am being harsh but the evidence I see each game does little to change my opinion: no major shift in tactics, only slight improvement in use of subs, constantly shipping soft goals etc.
We've come full circle and arrived back at the proposition: Who would make the better manager for FFC? I hate making predictions, and while I would love to see us click on the day with a repeat of the Derby performance I fear Brentford are going to have our number Friday when it comes to tactics.
For me of the choice is warburton or SYmons then I would go for Symons, they are about the sam ein experience, so give a true FFC man the chance.
Thats only if the choice is between those two
We may learn a lot more about both Managers on Friday after the match has been played.
