How long till we see him in the first team squad? Put another two away against Bolton U21s I see. Hes been knocking them in for fun. Has Jol noticed? Oh wait.... thats right. Jol hates young players. I wont hold my breath.
This the same Jol that is giving Kasami and Kacanikilic a go, and gave Matthew Briggs his fair shot in the first team
Quote from: Riether Lightning 63 on November 05, 2013, 09:34:52 AM
This the same Jol that is giving Kasami and Kacanikilic a go, and gave Matthew Briggs his fair shot in the first team
Yes the same Jol.
Both Hodgson and Hughes paid little attention to the younger players. Martin Jol will be very aware of Dembele's progress and will only use him when he feels he is ready.
Do you really think Briggs has had a fair shot? How about giving him a spot for say six matches in a row and then make a decision? Everyone jumps all over Richardsons back and I myself think hes hopeless and Riiise's not te answer so why not give him a proper chance to take the left back spot? Not one in five out then come on as a sub then out on loan. Would love to see Dan Burn get a recall if we can. Ponderos has no place in our squad but somehow he manages to stick around.
Ali Mac was quoted in the preseason that they were expecting big things from Mesca this season. Hes played less than a half of football.
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 10:27:40 AM
Do you really think Briggs has had a fair shot? How about giving him a spot for say six matches in a row and then make a decision? Everyone jumps all over Richardsons back and I myself think hes hopeless and Riiise's not te answer so why not give him a proper chance to take the left back spot? Not one in five out then come on as a sub then out on loan. Would love to see Dan Burn get a recall if we can. Ponderos has no place in our squad but somehow he manages to stick around.
Ali Mac was quoted in the preseason that they were expecting big things from Mesca this season. Hes played less than a half of football.
The is not going to be possible - Briggs has not be available for some time.
In case you missed it - on 24 September it was announced that Matthew Briggs had undergone a hernia operation - I have no idea what the recuperation period is but it has to be more than 8 weeks before he can do any serious training.
Maybe he strained something giving Jol a piggy-back ride?
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:32:13 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 10:27:40 AM
Do you really think Briggs has had a fair shot? How about giving him a spot for say six matches in a row and then make a decision? Everyone jumps all over Richardsons back and I myself think hes hopeless and Riiise's not te answer so why not give him a proper chance to take the left back spot? Not one in five out then come on as a sub then out on loan. Would love to see Dan Burn get a recall if we can. Ponderos has no place in our squad but somehow he manages to stick around.
Ali Mac was quoted in the preseason that they were expecting big things from Mesca this season. Hes played less than a half of football.
The is not going to be possible - Briggs has not be available for some time.
In case you missed it - on 24 September it was announced that Mathew Briggs had undergone a hernia operation - I have no idea what the recuperation period is but it has to be more than 8 weeks before he can do any serious training.
Yes I was aware of his hernia injury. I was trying to say that its no use playing someone like Briggs once a blue moon and then deciding hes not good enough. The same thing happened with Kerim Frei. Why not give these guys a proper run and then making a decision on them? Good to see Kasami getting his just rewards and he has been the shining light in a very average start to the season. But even Kaca must be getting whiplash.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 10:39:39 AM
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:32:13 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 10:27:40 AM
Do you really think Briggs has had a fair shot? How about giving him a spot for say six matches in a row and then make a decision? Everyone jumps all over Richardsons back and I myself think hes hopeless and Riiise's not te answer so why not give him a proper chance to take the left back spot? Not one in five out then come on as a sub then out on loan. Would love to see Dan Burn get a recall if we can. Ponderos has no place in our squad but somehow he manages to stick around.
Ali Mac was quoted in the preseason that they were expecting big things from Mesca this season. Hes played less than a half of football.
The is not going to be possible - Briggs has not be available for some time.
In case you missed it - on 24 September it was announced that Mathew Briggs had undergone a hernia operation - I have no idea what the recuperation period is but it has to be more than 8 weeks before he can do any serious training.
Yes I was aware of his hernia injury. I was trying to say that its no use playing someone like Briggs once a blue moon and then deciding hes not good enough. The same thing happened with Kerim Frei. Why not give these guys a proper run and then making a decision on them? Good to see Kasami getting his just rewards and he has been the shining light in a very average start to the season. But even Kaca must be getting whiplash.
Same with Frei - he has spent most of the last season on the injury list - he made several recoveries but, like Hangeland, went off to play for his country only to come back injured again.
Briggs is no longer that young - 23? - and has had several opportunities on loan without impressing. Jol has many faults but IMO not progressing Briggs isn't one of them.
The team badly needs youthful energy but bringing in young kids before they're ready will do them and us more harm than good.
Be great if Dembele were ready though.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 05, 2013, 11:05:24 AM
Briggs is no longer that young - 23? - and has had several opportunities on loan without impressing. Jol has many faults but IMO not progressing Briggs isn't one of them.
The team badly needs youthful energy but bringing in young kids before they're ready will do them and us more harm than good.
Be great if Dembele were ready though.
That gets back to my original question. How long till we see Dembele? Has anyone watched him live regularly? He certainly sounds like an exciting prospect. Would be great to see a teenager in our lineup instead of buying/loaning 30 somethings.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
How long till we see him in the first team squad? Put another two away against Bolton U21s I see. Hes been knocking them in for fun. Has Jol noticed? Oh wait.... thats right. Jol hates young players. I wont hold my breath.
How can you say Jol hates young players? Mesca, David, Dembélé ( and more )all were brought here during Jol's regime. He's singled each of those three out for praise throughout the season.
How do you know that it's not Kit telling Jol that they aren't ready yet? Even before Jol, Fulham rarely brought thru youngsters straight to the first team. They've always gone out on loans prior.
Hate him if you will, but at least use the truth to justify your hate rather than just manufacturing reasons.
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
Then I'm sure Jol would stick with the same winning team, so the youngsters wouldn't get a look in still.
Kasami's playing because he had the opportunity to start the season in the starting 11 and took his chance. Kaca I feel is always used as a scapegoat, if things aren't working he'll be the first player sacrificed and doesn't get anywhere enough of a run in the team in my opinion.
At least give Dembele a chance to come off the bench, even if it's just 20-25 mins to breathe a bit of life into the forward line and possibly make an impact.
Quote from: Furby on November 05, 2013, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
Then I'm sure Jol would stick with the same winning team, so the youngsters wouldn't get a look in still.
Kasami's playing because he had the opportunity to start the season in the starting 11 and took his chance. Kaca I feel is always used as a scapegoat, if things aren't working he'll be the first player sacrificed and doesn't get anywhere enough of a run in the team in my opinion.
At least give Dembele a chance to come off the bench, even if it's just 20-25 mins to breathe a bit of life into the forward line and possibly make an impact.
My point was not for them to start but to get some game time off the bench.
It will not do them any good if they come on when things are desperate and get booed off at the end.
Quote from: Furby on November 05, 2013, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
Then I'm sure Jol would stick with the same winning team, so the youngsters wouldn't get a look in still.
Kasami's playing because he had the opportunity to start the season in the starting 11 and took his chance. Kaca I feel is always used as a scapegoat, if things aren't working he'll be the first player sacrificed and doesn't get anywhere enough of a run in the team in my opinion.
At least give Dembele a chance to come off the bench, even if it's just 20-25 mins to breathe a bit of life into the forward line and possibly make an impact.
Jol would rather watch Berbatov walk around the park all day.
don't think he's ready to be a fixture in the first team yet. Not seen him since the move up to the 21s this year but he scored a lot at u18 level by virtue of being stronger and quicker than a lot of people, as well as being intent on scoring (as opposed to the tika-taka players around him). Just wonder how he's going handle a step up to pro football at whatever level.
Well hes scored five now in three U21 games so hes certianly made the jump from U18 to U21s. Seems like hes progressing quickly.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 11:36:39 AM
Well hes scored five now in three U21 games so hes certianly made the jump from U18 to U21s. Seems like hes progressing quickly.
thing is that there isn't really a jump between u18 and u21, it's a small step.
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: Furby on November 05, 2013, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
Then I'm sure Jol would stick with the same winning team, so the youngsters wouldn't get a look in still.
Kasami's playing because he had the opportunity to start the season in the starting 11 and took his chance. Kaca I feel is always used as a scapegoat, if things aren't working he'll be the first player sacrificed and doesn't get anywhere enough of a run in the team in my opinion.
At least give Dembele a chance to come off the bench, even if it's just 20-25 mins to breathe a bit of life into the forward line and possibly make an impact.
My point was not for them to start but to get some game time off the bench.
It will not do them any good if they come on when things are desperate and get booed off at the end.
I knew what you meant, but they could be waiting until next season for their opportunity with that logic. If they were given a chance like Berahino was on Saturday for WBA then they might change the game like he did.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
How long till we see him in the first team squad? Put another two away against Bolton U21s I see. Hes been knocking them in for fun. Has Jol noticed? Oh wait.... thats right. Jol hates young players. I wont hold my breath.
Kasami and Kaca don't get first team games then :doh:
He's clearly a special talent but he's only just turned seventeen. How many forwards are ready to lead a line in the Premier League at that age?
To be fair he's already playing with the U21s rather than the U18s so it's not as if we're not building him up, but I think it's too early to drop him in at the deep end.
I think one of the problems is, our team is almost "too good" for youth to come through, our fringe players are experienced footballers, that are just wasted wages if they are not used.
Back up RB: Zverotic
Back up CB: Senderos/Hughes
Back up LB: Riise
Back up RM: Duff
Back up CM: Boateng/Karagounis
Back up LM: Taarabt
Back up AM: Kasami
Back up ST: Bent/Rodallega
*Based on a standard 4411 of Steks; Riether, Hangeland, Amore, Richardson; Dejagah, Parker, Sidwell, Kacaniklic; Ruiz; Berbatov.
As elgreenio said, the step up from U21 football, to Premier League football, is a lot higher than U18 to U21, hence why the loan rule was used to our advantage with Alex Kacaniklic, and could be in the future with Dan Burn and Marcello Trotta.
I would expect Mousa Dembele to see out the majority of the year with the U21s, and with Berbatov and Bent possibly not being here next season, he may feature in pre-season.
Back to my original point, it would very bold of Martin Jol to chuck the likes of Dembele, Christensen, Burn, Passley and Trotta into the first team without a test and ahead of players like Rodallega, Boateng, Hughes etc.
Very interesting and well written article here on this exact debate.
http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/2013/11/05/naive-post-about-using-the-youngsters-more/ (http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/2013/11/05/naive-post-about-using-the-youngsters-more/)
Perhaps Jol should wait until we're 4-0 up with 10 minutes left before replacing Berbatov with Dembele?
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on November 05, 2013, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
Oh wait.... thats right. Jol hates young players.
Hate him if you will, but at least use the truth to justify your hate rather than just manufacturing reasons.
Well said, TMcT. It's a ridiculous accusation.
The old adage of if they are good enough they are old enough applies. I think he should be given 30 mins to find out if he takes to it like a duck to water or not.
U21s beat the first team on a regular basis at MP
I think we are saving Dembele until we play Tottenham, then he will be given the last thirty minutes to hang around the Spurs area, and as the Spuds players will be so used to passing to Dembele, he will have enough chances to put four easy goals away and we win 4-3. :airfix:
Just watching Juve vs Real, and Paul Pogba run the show in the first half. He's 20 years of age, left Man U because he wasn't given a chance and now playing comfortably in the Champions League. As Grandad says age shouldn't come into it if you've got the talent.
Even though its not much of a junp from U18 to U21 in most games he does seem to have the propensity to raise his game and adapt. He has a confidence in his ability to score from anywhere which is an asset. My worry would be before we give him a 15-20 minute run out in the premiership we make sure we have him signed up on a long contract because he has the ability to fire in a debut goal similar to Rooneys in which case we would lose him in the summer for the price of a development fee.
The fear of failure looms like the 'Grim Reaper' for the decision makers regarding the fearless young players imo.
You have to admire Villa, So'ton,Arsenal in particular for putting their youngsters in the the deep end and watch them sink or swim.Dare I mention Manure and the 17 year old Januzaj.
When you watch the U21's & U18's the speed of passing/movement is breathtaking at times,reminiscent of Arsenal at their best,something the 1st team sadly lacks.
Kasami has stuck out like a beacon this season against the tired patchwork quilt of seasoned/journeyman professionals that make up our team.
As things stand the spectre of relegation is there for all to see. I really hope, against hope that we see the likes of Dembele/Mesca/Roberts thrust into the limelight, light up our team and give us,
the frazzled fans some optimism.
Oh yes and btw get rid of that donkey Ponderos.
An interesting thread about a very interesting player.
elgreenio is a knowledgeable man regarding the junior players and his caution is to be respected.
There is no doubt that his physique gave him a considerable advantage at u18 level and yet it was obvious thet there was much more to it than that. Quick, powerful, confident and outrageously skillful and yet sometimes incredibly naive - something that only experience would remedy.
He was rightly given early promotion to the u21s and looked a bit lost against Arsenal. It is greatly to his credit that he has adapted so quickly and it might well be that he is a quick learner. However it is simply not realistic to think that he might, with a handful of u21 appearances to his name, be capable of replacing Berbatov, Bent or Rodellega in trhe PL pecking order. In time (and, hopefully, in short time) he may prove superior to one (or all) of them.
An interesting comparison was drawn between him and Paul Pogba. The important difference (apart from the positions they play) is that Pogba is 20, Dembele is 17. Pogba was a monster, physically and talent-wise, at 17. At that stage he was exactly where Dembele is now, just starting to play for the u21s. At 18 he got a few minutes off the bench for Manchester United first team. He was 19 and a half when he won a regular starting spot at Juventus and now, with his 21st coming up in March is the established star he always promised to be. We can only hope that Dembele's career follows a similar timeframe (although not, of course, at Juventus!).
CMG your last paragraph is my point. Pogba was only given a brief look in at Man U. So got fed up, let his contract run down and left to go Juve. Who's to say that Dembele won't progress like him? I'm not expecting him to replace any of the 3 you mentioned in the starting line up, but I believe he should be given the chance to at least a run out, especially as his confidence is sky high and use his naivety as a positive by trying things that experienced players wouldn't. Rooney's debut, Owens England debut goals spring to mind.
Knowing Jol he will throw him in against one of the big boys, give him 20 minutes and then never see him again.
Mesca anyone?
At risk of derision,Robbie Fowlers Cottage debut-17?
Quote from: west kowloon white on November 06, 2013, 03:14:45 PM
At risk of derision,Robbie Fowlers Cottage debut-17?
Please dont bring that up I have only just started to get rid of the nightmares.
Quote from: MJG on November 06, 2013, 03:04:26 PM
Knowing Jol he will throw him in against one of the big boys, give him 20 minutes and then never see him again.
Mesca anyone?
.....and play him out of his natural position, to make the transition to the 1st team even more challenging!
Quote from: BishopsParkFantastic on November 06, 2013, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: MJG on November 06, 2013, 03:04:26 PM
Knowing Jol he will throw him in against one of the big boys, give him 20 minutes and then never see him again.
Mesca anyone?
.....and play him out of his natural position, to make the transition to the 1st team even more challenging!
And tell him to just run around
Quote from: the nutflush on November 05, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
How long till we see him in the first team squad? Put another two away against Bolton U21s I see. Hes been knocking them in for fun. Has Jol noticed? Oh wait.... thats right. Jol hates young players. I wont hold my breath.
We appear to have some good youngsters at the moment, my concern is that at these U21 and U17 games they are awash with scouts from every club in the Prem. I hope we have them on good contracts as if they are as good as everyone says we could be seeing them play 1st team football for somebody else.
Quote from: Furby on November 06, 2013, 03:00:49 PM
CMG your last paragraph is my point. Pogba was only given a brief look in at Man U. So got fed up, let his contract run down and left to go Juve. Who's to say that Dembele won't progress like him? I'm not expecting him to replace any of the 3 you mentioned in the starting line up, but I believe he should be given the chance to at least a run out, especially as his confidence is sky high and use his naivety as a positive by trying things that experienced players wouldn't. Rooney's debut, Owens England debut goals spring to mind.
I take your point. Absolutely. You could, however argue it the other way - that Manchester United's delicate handling set him up for his subsequent success. It's the fascinating thing about watching young talent bloom - you can never tell what's going to happen.
In the past this hasn't mattered that much too us - the young talent was no more than very interesting. Right now we have a few, including Dembele, who just might be sensational.
I know the current sport is sniping at the Fulham organisation at every possible opportunity, but there must be something there. Noe Baba turned his back on Manchester United to come here and Dembele himself made the shift from PSG.
Not that I've anything against giving youth its earliest opportunity. I'm old enough to remember Alan Mullery's debut. A star from day one. He was 17.
My major fear in giving Dembele a similar early start is that we currently don't have people capable of providing service to the experienced internationals we currently have up front, much less to a young man learning his trade.
CMG
Not that I've anything against giving youth its earliest opportunity. I'm old enough to remember Alan Mullery's debut. A star from day one. He was 17.
My major fear in giving Dembele a similar early start is that we currently don't have people capable of providing service to the experienced internationals we currently have up front, much less to a young man learning his trade.
[/quote]
So how about playing a teenager that can? If the experienced internationals have had the creativity coached out of them what's to lose? Might be the kick up the arse they need.
Quote from: OdecaMynoT on November 06, 2013, 05:11:08 PM
So how about playing a teenager that can? If the experienced internationals have had the creativity coached out of them what's to lose? Might be the kick up the arse they need.
Well, it's not up to me (another opportunity missed) but I'll give it a go.
Firstly, I don't think our current midfielders have had the creativity coached out of them. I don't think they had any in the first place - that's not knocking them, they have other skills.
My opinion, for what it is worth, is that Emerson Hyndman is the most creatively gifted midfielder in the top three squads. He, too, is only 17 but he is not very big, in fact he could easily get in for half-price (if he wasn't playing) and is not a viable option for the PL at this time.
I guess Chris David might be an option...and I can only assume his absence from the recent u21 match indicates that our esteemed management thinks so too.
Personally I think that chucking in a striker is much less risky than chucking in a playmaker, chucking in both seems like desperation..If I was manager? I'd keep calm and pass it to Berbatov. ("Hello, Arsene. Santi doing anything on Saturday?")
When Alan Mulley got the call we were a high-flying second tier outfit. He had a hard-as-nails international (Roy Bentley) behind him, a veteran international (Eddie Lowe) beside him and one of the world's greatest playmakers in front of him.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 05, 2013, 11:05:24 AM
Briggs is no longer that young - 23? - and has had several opportunities on loan without impressing. Jol has many faults but IMO not progressing Briggs isn't one of them.
The team badly needs youthful energy but bringing in young kids before they're ready will do them and us more harm than good.
Be great if Dembele were ready though.
Briggs has been given opportunities, but for me hasn't quite cracked it at full back in the Premiership. For me, Briggs would be better playing in midfield, with opportunities in the Championship. In the past, Fulham have have signed players ostensibly to play at full back, but converted them to become top players in other positions (John Ryan, and Supermac being obvious examples).
We need to give our young talented players opportunities to play in the positions where they have demonstrated success - not being played out of position. They also need the support and encouragement from experienced players around them - do they have that? From what I've seen, read and heard, Dan Burn, Mesca and Dembele deserve opportunities - alongside Kaca and Kasami. Bring in a quality, young dynamic creative midfield player, left back, new manager and backroom team - and I genuinely think we can make progress....
The strange thing is that this team is too old and done it all experienced but we don't get the benefit because there seems to be no preparation or organisation. These guys could seemlessly fit into an organised scheme if one were on offer.
Youthful energy and ambition would be wasted in the present "system" because the kids confidence would quickly take a knock. Kasami seems unusually determined to succeed - most kids are more reticent but when you see the likes of Rooney coming through very young it's obvious that they need to have the talent but it's the self belief that enables them to shine at a very young age.
I think bringing kids into our team right now would do more harm than good.
Don't agree, things cannot be worse at present and an injection of youth and enthusiasm can do no harm at all.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 07, 2013, 09:22:44 AM
Don't agree, things cannot be worse at present and an injection of youth and enthusiasm can do no harm at all.
My concern is damaging the kids' future prospects.
I don't think the team would be much worse with the Krankies in midfield.
I kind of agree with both TG and er.
Certainly an injection of youth and enthusiasm (or something) would be welcomed.
The 'system', however is a bit of a problem. It seems to me that both the u21s and the u18s operate the same, distinctive system. They get the ball out from the back very quickly. They attack down both flanks using fast, skillful wingers and full backs (Passley, Kavanagh, Richards) with real speed, they have midfields with a good balance of graft and creativity (Minkwitz/Christensen/David and Sambou/Hyndman) who gain possession and use it well. I assume the defences are OK, but in truth I have rarely seen them under heavy pressure largely because we have so much possession and use it well. The seniors just don't have the players to play like that, although I guess they would like to.
Quote from: MJG on November 06, 2013, 03:29:55 PM
Quote from: BishopsParkFantastic on November 06, 2013, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: MJG on November 06, 2013, 03:04:26 PM
Knowing Jol he will throw him in against one of the big boys, give him 20 minutes and then never see him again.
Mesca anyone?
.....and play him out of his natural position, to make the transition to the 1st team even more challenging!
And tell him to just run around
To the local KFC.
Quote from: cmg on November 07, 2013, 10:30:39 AM
I assume the defences are OK, but in truth I have rarely seen them under heavy pressure largely because we have so much possession and use it well. The seniors just don't have the players to play like that, although I guess they would like to.
have only seen the u18's under real pressure once last season against Liverpool and that was more a case of out-fought than out-thought, as our bigger physical players were missing or withdrawn through injury.
Dembele will more than likely get himself on the next pre-season tour but wouldnt expect much above that. Jol talks of players being in the 20-22 bracket before using them, with the player having had a good amount of pro games previous (Kaca and Kasami had around 20 before really integrating).
Huw Jenkins was on lbc after United game and said he hopeful that Dembele would feature in the 2nd half of this season.
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
I just read (albeit on a pretty crap website) that Crewe Alexandra are being linked with Fulham striker Moussa Dembele. Its started already. Unless we start to integrate this kid into the first team squad soon we will lose him and we will regret it. I ask you guys this.... Who would you rather lose? A young prospect like Dembele or say Rodallega?
Quote from: the nutflush on November 09, 2013, 05:40:17 AM
I just read (albeit on a pretty crap website) that Crewe Alexandra are being linked with Fulham striker Moussa Dembele. Its started already. Unless we start to integrate this kid into the first team squad soon we will lose him and we will regret it. I ask you guys this.... Who would you rather lose? A young prospect like Dembele or say Rodallega?
Is that as a permanent signing or loan deal? We certainly wouldn't let him go there permanent, if they think he's got so much potential.
But I still believe he should at least be on the bench today and maybe given a run out if we're 2 or 3 - 0 down.
Quote from: Furby on November 09, 2013, 09:23:53 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 09, 2013, 05:40:17 AM
I just read (albeit on a pretty crap website) that Crewe Alexandra are being linked with Fulham striker Moussa Dembele. Its started already. Unless we start to integrate this kid into the first team squad soon we will lose him and we will regret it. I ask you guys this.... Who would you rather lose? A young prospect like Dembele or say Rodallega?
Is that as a permanent signing or loan deal? We certainly wouldn't let him go there permanent, if they think he's got so much potential.
But I still believe he should at least be on the bench today and maybe given a run out if we're 2 or 3 - 0 down.
Definitely didnt say loan deal in the article. It was only a short one and dint really get into specifics. It just said Alex boss Steve Davis was watching the U21s beat Bolton where Dembele scored twice. I suppose it was inferring that Davis was there to watch Dembele. Who else would he be watching?
And would sending Dembele out on loan to a lower league be bad for his development?
Send him out until January....
Quote from: Max Headroom on November 09, 2013, 09:48:04 AM
And would sending Dembele out on loan to a lower league be bad for his development?
Send him out until January....
It didnt say they were interested in getting him in on loan. Yes to loan him out would be good for his development. To sell him would be yet another kick in the nuts for Fulham fans.
If it's reported in a NEWSPAPER as a transfer tip it MUST be true.
We're f****d and Khan's a *******
What's the date? Dembele permanent transfer to Crewe Alexandra? There's more chance of me being transferred to Crewe Alexander and I'm over sixty and was only ever good enough to play at the Alexandra Recreation Ground in Epsom.
Dembele signed a two year (+ 1 option) contract on his 17th birthday. He ain't going nowhere in the foreseeable future except on loan or into our senior squad.
Representatives of all sorts of clubs are to be seen at development matches. Statistics show that most of the players on view will end up in the lower leagues at best.
A loan to Crewe, a club with a fantastic record of player development, might well be advantageous for Dembele, but he'll only move there permanently if he quits football and becomes an engine driver.
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Jols got more chance of flying to the moon in his BMW than getting us 40 points.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 11, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Jols got more chance of flying to the moon in his BMW than getting us 40 points.
Again, i'm not 'For' Mr Jol but......I know what you mean, he's never achieved it before......Not even with us either.
It's far too easy (and in my opinion fickle) to simply blame Jol solely for our current downfall.
Quote from: Roberty on November 05, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
It might be easier to integrate the academy players and give them playing time if we had a winning team.
..but then again, we might not have a losing team if we did....?
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 11, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Jols got more chance of flying to the moon in his BMW than getting us 40 points.
Again, i'm not 'For' Mr Jol but......I know what you mean, he's never achieved it before......Not even with us either.
It's far too easy (and in my opinion fickle) to simply blame Jol solely for our current downfall.
So who do you blame? Do you not agree that personnel changes need to be made? Somethings got to change otherwise this ship is sunk. All these 'Jol outers' are not clutching at straws here. If we don't do something different to what we've been doing for the last season and a half we are gone. So we have to show Jol the door this week.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Got to love a youngish fan who still thinks Jol can conjure 30 points from this team for the rest of the season. There is simply no basis for that statement: none.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 11, 2013, 10:47:34 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: the nutflush on November 11, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Jols got more chance of flying to the moon in his BMW than getting us 40 points.
Again, i'm not 'For' Mr Jol but......I know what you mean, he's never achieved it before......Not even with us either.
It's far too easy (and in my opinion fickle) to simply blame Jol solely for our current downfall.
So who do you blame? Do you not agree that personnel changes need to be made? Somethings got to change otherwise this ship is sunk. All these 'Jol outers' are not clutching at straws here. If we don't do something different to what we've been doing for the last season and a half we are gone. So we have to show Jol the door this week.
I'll stick to my guns and say, things need to change indeed. Whether it's Jol who impliments the changes or the new manager and gets us points on the board I couldn't care. I never said people don't have a valid point regarding Jol out but some of the things he's being blamed for is ludicrous. There is far more wrong with current dealings at teh club that just Mr Jol but ultimately it's his job to put points on the board. Subsequently, we aren't so.....Read into that what you will of my opinion.
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Got to love a youngish fan who still thinks Jol can conjure 30 points from this team for the rest of the season. There is simply no basis for that statement: none.
Got to love a debate when someone has to try and justify something with the age of someone. Most counterproductive argument you can use. Hats off to you though. In your infinite wisdom I will simply succumb to your clearly thought out argument.
To get to my point, is it the team can't conjure up 30 points or just Jol stopping them? I think this team should be able to get 40 points. I can't see how that's conceded.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 11:00:50 AM
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Got to love a youngish fan who still thinks Jol can conjure 30 points from this team for the rest of the season. There is simply no basis for that statement: none.
Got to love a debate when someone has to try and justify something with the age of someone. Most counterproductive argument you can use. Hats off to you though. In your infinite wisdom I will simply succumb to your clearly thought out argument.
To get to my point, is it the team can't conjure up 30 points or just Jol stopping them? I think this team should be able to get 40 points. I can't see how that's conceded.
I'm not having a go at you mate I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. You have to bear in mind that this is a team largely assembled by Jol. Go throught the lineup we put out on the weekend. Other than Sidwell and Senderos they are all Jols boys. In my opinion the bucks got to stop with the gaffer.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 11, 2013, 11:06:06 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 11:00:50 AM
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on November 08, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 07, 2013, 01:19:46 PM
It could definitly be worse. We could be 20th with nil points on the board and getting smashed every game.
That's like telling the family of a traffic victim, "At least he wasn't cut in half by an Exocet missile."
Well not really. Its the truth. We could be in a worse position and yet I keep hearing the phase 'It couldn't get much worse' It certainly can and acting like its impossible for our team to pick up points is counterproductive and remains to be seen. With or without Jol, this team can get 40 points plus.
Got to love a youngish fan who still thinks Jol can conjure 30 points from this team for the rest of the season. There is simply no basis for that statement: none.
Got to love a debate when someone has to try and justify something with the age of someone. Most counterproductive argument you can use. Hats off to you though. In your infinite wisdom I will simply succumb to your clearly thought out argument.
To get to my point, is it the team can't conjure up 30 points or just Jol stopping them? I think this team should be able to get 40 points. I can't see how that's conceded.
I'm not having a go at you mate I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. You have to bear in mind that this is a team largely assembled by Jol. Go throught the lineup we put out on the weekend. Other than Sidwell and Senderos they are all Jols boys. In my opinion the bucks got to stop with the gaffer.
That wasn't aimed at you :) Our debate is decent! Someone piped up about my age (I'm 26) seemed inappropriate and counterproductive to the discussion.
Like I said, his job is to achieve points, he isn't. It's defending the indefensibile but like I said as well, some things he's getting blamed for are quite daft! I think whoever is in charge needs to put points on the board and still, I couldn't care who because of the current prediciment!
quote
some things he's getting blamed for are quite daft! I think whoever is in charge needs to put points on the board and still, I couldn't care who because of the current prediciment!
For instance? and who do you think has caused this situation to unfold then?
Quote from: epsomraver on November 11, 2013, 11:41:12 AM
quote
some things he's getting blamed for are quite daft! I think whoever is in charge needs to put points on the board and still, I couldn't care who because of the current prediciment!
For instance? and who do you think has caused this situation to unfold then?
I've read that he is to blame for Youths leaving the club.....when they haven't even left yet for instance. I've read he's the reason why certain players wouldn't join the club (like Defoe) and i've read he's been fully backed in terms of investment. I've read he's unworkable and has a bad attitude with his players who all seem to openly like him (most of them) I simply can not believe all of this and see some parts of it as conjecture. Call me cynical but I don't think a well ran club like us could run like this.
I think underinvestment from the club have a part to play. I feel the players need a good portion of the blame also. I think Jol has a very significant portion indeed and am not offloading this BUT like I said, *some* things hes being blamed for are off key in my opinion.
Labeling, incorrectly, a fellow fan as smug was puerile.
I absolutely cannot see another 30 points from this team with Jol in charge. My point being that the manager does influence outcomes...in this scenario, negatively.
You clearly feel that with Jol at the helm another 30 points is achievable. I don't, I doubt if many others do and I would respectfully suggest there is scant evidence to support such a view.
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 12:28:55 PM
Labeling, incorrectly, a fellow fan as smug was puerile.
I absolutely cannot see another 30 points from this team with Jol in charge. My point being that the manager does influence outcomes...in this scenario, negatively.
You clearly feel that with Jol at the helm another 30 points is achievable. I don't, I doubt if many others do and I would respectfully suggest there is scant evidence to support such a view.
That's the impression I got on a very old post and I stick by it. Regardless of how 'incorrect' you think it is, doing a 'I told you so' post can only be considered in a smug tone, in my humble opinion. Nothing wrong with posying it, nothing wrong with pointing it out.
You assert it is not possible for Jol and this team and pitch together another 30 pts. I think it is *possible* but not impossible as you would have me believe. I see it currently as improbable but still possible. I have always been consistent with asserting that this can only happen if some sort of change occurs. You also place me at the helm of a debate where I am 'pro Jol'. A quick glance of most of my posts and a facebook posting dating back to 2010 would suggest I've supported Jol and not fuly blamed him for *Everything* whilst also maintaining an element of a skeptical nature of some of his onfield tactics. (also slating him in the early days where I thought I saw complete regression but he turned it around)
As ever, I stick to the fence, someone pick up points, Jol either needs to change to achieve this (if he can) or we gamble and bring someone else in who we think can. The last point I make it this team on paper apparently should achieve better things, maybe the palyers we have just aren't up to it. This again falls on Jol.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 12:28:55 PM
Labeling, incorrectly, a fellow fan as smug was puerile.
I absolutely cannot see another 30 points from this team with Jol in charge. My point being that the manager does influence outcomes...in this scenario, negatively.
You clearly feel that with Jol at the helm another 30 points is achievable. I don't, I doubt if many others do and I would respectfully suggest there is scant evidence to support such a view.
I just tried a forecast of results, match by match, to the end of the season and came up with 32 points.............so we are pushing it somewhat..............problem is , how many points can the other teams get?
Quote from: gerrys on November 11, 2013, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 11, 2013, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: WayneKerrins on November 11, 2013, 12:28:55 PM
Labeling, incorrectly, a fellow fan as smug was puerile.
I absolutely cannot see another 30 points from this team with Jol in charge. My point being that the manager does influence outcomes...in this scenario, negatively.
You clearly feel that with Jol at the helm another 30 points is achievable. I don't, I doubt if many others do and I would respectfully suggest there is scant evidence to support such a view.
I just tried a forecast of results, match by match, to the end of the season and came up with 32 points.............so we are pushing it somewhat..............problem is , how many points can the other teams get?
We will need 40.
He's in the squad. Wahey! See I do talk sense sometimes.
Quote from: the nutflush on November 23, 2013, 09:53:27 AM
He's in the squad. Wahey! See I do talk sense sometimes.
Finally, my name has become relevant!
Does anyone know if he has twitter?
Quote from: Walsh on November 23, 2013, 10:38:01 AM
Does anyone know if he has twitter?
I'm not sure he has, I tried looking but to no result
Quote from: Walsh on November 23, 2013, 10:38:01 AM
Does anyone know if he has twitter?
@marjsonrobinho
He hasn't been on in ages though.
Dembele 3-0 Reading U18's 0.
Barclays U18 Premier League Final - Fulham 3-0 Reading Highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7x1EgsU1pk#ws)