People love to have a go at Chris over what's transpired over the season, but the stats don't lie. He needs to start in the playoffs. In the last 17 games he's featured, we've lost twice.
Problem is that when he was suspended we played very well and won. He hasn't played well when he has played recently and so an argument could be made to keep him on the bench.
Quote from: Fulhamerica23 on May 08, 2017, 06:12:00 PM
People love to have a go at Chris over what's transpired over the season, but the stats don't lie. He needs to start in the playoffs. In the last 17 games he's featured, we've lost twice.
that is what as known as inappropriate use of statistical analysis.
it is the worst kind of misuse.
we did well despite him not because of him. in only two matches i have seen him play have i felt he made a remotely positive contribution and that along with the majority of others that have seen him.
the stats dont lie, one goal in 2017. now compare that to everyone else,and i think it ends up with only betts button and kalas as having worse stats
As people like to say, in Joka we must trust. He has brought us this far so if he plays Martin great. Hope Martin has the game of a lifetime. If Joka does not play Martin then so be it. Hopefully either way we get the win with a fair amount of goals for leg two.
Fulhamerica and Fulhamben - I think you illustrate how numbers can be presented to reinforce preconceived ideas. Here are some more numbers for you to consider
Chris Martin 32 appearances 11 goals 2.91 games to goals ratio
Stefan Johansen 40 apps 13 goals 3.08 games to goals ratio
Floyd Ayité 32 apps 9 goals 3.56 games to goals ratio
Tom Cairney 49 apps 12 goals 4.08 games to goals ratio
Ryan Sessegnon 29 apps 7 goals 4.14 games to goals ratio
Neeskens Kebano 30 apps 6 goals 5.00 games to goals ratio
Lucas Piazon 32 apps 6 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Sone Aluko 48 apps 9 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Scott Malone 40 apps 6 goals 6.67 games to goals ratio
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 07:32:02 PM
Fulhamerica and Fulhamben - I think you illustrate how numbers can be presented to reinforce preconceived ideas. Here are some more numbers for you to consider
Chris Martin 32 appearances 11 goals 2.91 games to goals ratio
Stefan Johansen 40 apps 13 goals 3.08 games to goals ratio
Floyd Ayité 32 apps 9 goals 3.56 games to goals ratio
Tom Cairney 49 apps 12 goals 4.08 games to goals ratio
Ryan Sessegnon 29 apps 7 goals 4.14 games to goals ratio
Neeskens Kebano 30 apps 6 goals 5.00 games to goals ratio
Lucas Piazon 32 apps 6 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Sone Aluko 48 apps 9 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Scott Malone 40 apps 6 goals 6.67 games to goals ratio
just goes to show how good he was last year before he went on strike. i wonder why he cant score in a brothel now.
although to be fair, he had a shocking second half of the season for derby last year too. so the strike might not be playing a part of it at all. might just be one of those who goes on holiday at xmas, and doesnt return till the end of summer
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 07:32:02 PM
Fulhamerica and Fulhamben - I think you illustrate how numbers can be presented to reinforce preconceived ideas. Here are some more numbers for you to consider
Chris Martin 32 appearances 11 goals 2.91 games to goals ratio
Stefan Johansen 40 apps 13 goals 3.08 games to goals ratio
Floyd Ayité 32 apps 9 goals 3.56 games to goals ratio
Tom Cairney 49 apps 12 goals 4.08 games to goals ratio
Ryan Sessegnon 29 apps 7 goals 4.14 games to goals ratio
Neeskens Kebano 30 apps 6 goals 5.00 games to goals ratio
Lucas Piazon 32 apps 6 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Sone Aluko 48 apps 9 goals 5.33 games to goals ratio
Scott Malone 40 apps 6 goals 6.67 games to goals ratio
Chris Martin 32 appearances 24 sulks, 2 strikes, 1 red card, 28 kebabs .. 1% commitment to the cause ratio
Stefan Johansen 40 apps 13 goals Incredible engine, donates his shirt every week at away games.. 100% cttcrc
Floyd Ayité 32 apps 9 goals injured comes back stronger never say die attitude ....100% cttcrc
Tom Cairney 49 apps 12 goals See his goal and celebration against Leeds ? ....100% cttcrc
Ryan Sessegnon 29 apps 7 goals Been here forvever, 16 and loved by all....100% cttcrc
Neeskens Kebano 30 apps 6 goals Brilliant from the bench, never moans, takes his chance ... 100% cttcr
Lucas Piazon 32 apps 6 goals wants to stay, works his nuts off... 100% cttcr
Sone Aluko 48 apps 9 goals runs himself into the ground, never gives up... 100% cttcr
Scott Malone 40 apps 6 goals left back revelation, crucial last minutes goals... 100% cttcr
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
Quote from: Statto on May 08, 2017, 08:30:27 PM
Stats... facts... reason... pragmatism... none of these things have any place in a discussion about Martin.
He's alleged to have refused to play in a game 4 months ago. Ipso facto he should be left out of the squad, whatever the cost of that
the cost of that was winning lots of games and scoring bucket loads of goals
Quote from: fulhamben on May 08, 2017, 07:45:02 PM
although to be fair, he had a shocking second half of the season for derby last year too. so the strike might not be playing a part of it at all. might just be one of those who goes on holiday at xmas, and doesnt return till the end of summer
Nothing with that Ben except we don't need people like him to play sorry I meant turn out in a Fulham shirt!!
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
" There are none so blind, as those who cannot see "
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
The stats don't lie mainly because they tell you very little in isolation. I agree that he should start, though.
Quote from: Statto on May 09, 2017, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Unlike LVC, Woodrow hasn't even kept his place in their team whilst on loan. Nice guy but it must be clear by now he's a League One player.
Met Cauley when he was on loan at Southend, when they were league 2, Phil Brown signed him on loan, was the year we went down. He is a nice bloke, but I never saw anything in him at League 2 level to suggest he would be a championship or premiership striker, but I liked his effort. However, he was not a regualr for them and thats why we recalled him. McGath then played him and he did ok nothing special. A succession of our managers have loaned him out and not played him, for me thats telling, so as you say stats can be read how you want the to be and a trained eye will pick up on all the surrounding elements.
he is a good lad, he tries very hard but doesnt seem to have what it takes, i really hope he does as I like him.
As for Martin he has done ok for us, his January shanigans hurt all of us, and thats why he is suffering now. Yes one goal since January, but some of the others were very imprortant, not sure how many goals he has contributed too, but would guess its maybe 4 or 5. He gives us an alternative and for reading he is a good option. In the hime game this season he ran them ragged and bullied their centre backs.
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Exactly my point. I am not particularly for or against Martin (In Joka we trust) but wanted to point out to the OP and Fulhamben that their 'statistics' were meaningless so offered them alternative numbers to highlight that their posts, in my view, were based on predudice not fact. BTW as a retired Finance Director I'm reasonably practised in understanding numbers and the stories they do or do not tell.
I think he plays a useful role up front- a focal point, who can hold the ball up, and at least occupy defenders.
On his game, he can be match winning.
He is a good option to have, and I think he could well start against Reading.
If he put his hands up admitted what he did and apologised would any of you forgive him.
I'm not normally one for forgiving but if he was honest and came clean I think I'd feel a bit better about him.Having said that I don't exactly hate him now. Been said before we all make mistakes.
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 09, 2017, 08:41:27 AM
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Exactly my point. I am not particularly for or against Martin (In Joka we trust) but wanted to point out to the OP and Fulhamben that their 'statistics' were meaningless so offered them alternative numbers to highlight that their posts, in my view, were based on predudice not fact. BTW as a retired Finance Director I'm reasonably practised in understanding numbers and the stories they do or do not tell.
how can the statistics of current form be meaningless?
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 09, 2017, 08:41:27 AM
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Exactly my point. I am not particularly for or against Martin (In Joka we trust) but wanted to point out to the OP and Fulhamben that their 'statistics' were meaningless so offered them alternative numbers to highlight that their posts, in my view, were based on predudice not fact. BTW as a retired Finance Director I'm reasonably practised in understanding numbers and the stories they do or do not tell.
as a finance director I feel sure you can make numbers sing a verdi opera if you wisd.... :-))))
i agree people mis-use numbers or rather maybe they manipulate them to prove a point rather than see what they actually really mean and whether they are relevant. There is a brilliant programme on radio 4 analysing such data, we listened on the way back from sheffield, I think everyone should be made to do the same.
Quote from: fulhamben on May 09, 2017, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 09, 2017, 08:41:27 AM
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Exactly my point. I am not particularly for or against Martin (In Joka we trust) but wanted to point out to the OP and Fulhamben that their 'statistics' were meaningless so offered them alternative numbers to highlight that their posts, in my view, were based on predudice not fact. BTW as a retired Finance Director I'm reasonably practised in understanding numbers and the stories they do or do not tell.
how can the statistics of current form be meaningless?
The numbers are meaningless if applied incorrectly or are misappropriated. For instance player a makes 100 passes, succesfully and none misplaced, therefore is the statement 'he is good at passing the ball' true or false?
The answer is without more data it is impossible to say because there is no context.
The martin stat in the OP gives no context. In the team I played for we won far more points when i played than when I didn't... that is a fact but it is also a fact I was not one of our best players, yet it reamins the case we won more often with me in (this is a fact).
IMO we are usually miles better when martin doesn't play but there are instances when he would be an asset.
Quote from: nose on May 09, 2017, 11:59:32 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on May 09, 2017, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 09, 2017, 08:41:27 AM
Quote from: nose on May 08, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on May 08, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice!
the facts are as stated but what you make of numers makes you a proper statistician. some of us are trained and understand numbers and how they work.
here is a fact and a stat for you, ignoring cyriac our most potent goalscorer this season is woodrow.... 7 goals and 185 mins per goal......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/fulham/top-scorers)
he did well for burton and looked really good against burton, creating at least one goal, one goalscoring oportunity that went close and heading one in himself..... IMO he remains a very good player that has never been given a chance AND the stats prove it.
but as you say some peoples prejudice gets in the way of facts (I actually do not recall your opinion on this woodrow subject) I am merely pointing out despite the facts some people do not agree.
Exactly my point. I am not particularly for or against Martin (In Joka we trust) but wanted to point out to the OP and Fulhamben that their 'statistics' were meaningless so offered them alternative numbers to highlight that their posts, in my view, were based on predudice not fact. BTW as a retired Finance Director I'm reasonably practised in understanding numbers and the stories they do or do not tell.
how can the statistics of current form be meaningless?
The numbers are meaningless if applied incorrectly or are misappropriated. For instance player a makes 100 passes, succesfully and none misplaced, therefore is the statement 'he is good at passing the ball' true or false?
The answer is without more data it is impossible to say because there is no context.
The martin stat in the OP gives no context. In the team I played for we won far more points when i played than when I didn't... that is a fact but it is also a fact I was not one of our best players, yet it reamins the case we won more often with me in (this is a fact).
IMO we are usually miles better when martin doesn't play but there are instances when he would be an asset.
there probably are some instances that he could be an asset for, but we are in a cup competition now. Goals win games, and Martin on current for is the least likely of our attackers to give us one
The only reason Martin should play against Reading is so we have someone to blame if it goes wrong. He is useless and was again on Sunday. I get that SJ may like him but we don't play in a style that needs a big 'hold up' man up front so why play him. If SJ wants someone like that, i would rather get Woodrow back - i don't think he has what it takes to be a premiership player but on his day can do a job in the Championship which is more than Martin is doing at the moment.
Let's hope Martin gets a hattrick on Saturday after all that.....
Martin got 2 against them in the 5-0 win, so have an incling that he will start.
martin IMO will not start
the team that started V brentford will start, i think
Quote from: nose on May 09, 2017, 06:05:59 PM
martin IMO will not start
the team that started V brentford will start, i think
I suspect, and hope, you are right. Kebano or Piazon to come on if Sessegnon doesn't make enough impact.
The level of intelligence on this board is amazing - truly without sarcasm or American irony.
CFO's rule - except when the CEO trumps them! I used to be a CEO. Even though he is not a CEO (because ours is useless) I would back the man who knows it all, who has produced above expectations and whose balls are on the line much more than anybody's on this board of weird opinions - I back Joca to make the decision - even if it doesn't work out.
Nogood "because he knows better, 57.5% better than anybody else on this board, isit" Boyo
Despite the disappointment at the lack of activity in January, we still have a range of combinations up front:
Perm any three from:
Aluko, Ayite, Sess, Martin, Kebano
with more than capable subs coming on from the unused 2 above and from Cyriac and Piazon
Aluko and Ayite are key for me, and I would have reasonable confidence in any of the others for the 3rd spot.
And Slav of course, can play with combinations according to the opposition and the state of the match.
Quote from: westcliff white on May 09, 2017, 02:16:05 PM
Martin got 2 against them in the 5-0 win, so have an incling that he will start.
The only game I have seen this year (I live in the US) was the 5-0 smackdown of Reading. I thought Martin played really well. I was there with my Chelsea season ticket holder friend (I know, but he really is a nice guy) and his comment that the "big number 25 is pretty useful."
In Joka we trust.