Friends of Fulham

I don't post very often because I read some posts and think there are posters supposedly Fulham supporters or possibly other club fans trying to stir the pot. I've read so many negative comments about how Tim Ream has performed over the past season. I see it so differently about how he initiates our attacks from defence as the manager and our style of play dictates. I understand that a mistake or two has materialised but I believe his calmness and passing qualities has been enormous in our gaining promotion. If anyone wishes to rewatch our playoff finals at Wembley on both occasions Tim was outstanding; nullify opposition attackers but calmness in distribution. There is obviously areas for improvement but I loathe the number of messages criticising Tim and other players after such a successful season. I'm not from across the pond but a season ticket holder living in Wandsworth and reading some of the posts on this site which picks on specific players really deflates me. Lets support our players rather than look to criticize them at every opportunity.
Just to add I'd like to comment how lucky we are to have the owners that we do; a new Riverside stand soon to open, continued investment in the playing squad and open discussion/communication with the club supporters.

Tim Ream is that you?

no its his son.

We have posts that ridicule players and coach and owner after every set back. Then the same posters treat the coach and players and owners as heroes after every success. It is what happens on social media. However we have been weak at the back for some time before Hector came. Ream played brilliantly in our last promotion season but wasn't very good in the Prem and had too many iffy moments last season to be relied upon. Although after lockdown he did look closer to his best form.

Football is about opinion and most of us have an opinion even if is uneducated. We support the club and the players but as in any true love affair. We are quick to criticise.

everyone played well in the final, should we keep them all as first teamers? not upgrade one single postion? and calmness on the ball is not something ive associated with time tim this season, he has looked dodgy on numerous occasions. we have to, absolutely have to upgrade our defence from the one that was so disastrous just 12 months ago if we want any chance of survival. hecter alone will not save us, and no position should be safe if an upgrade is available.     

Tim ream can't perform in the prem for me it's as simple as that. As much as he is a club hero he can't be starting for us next season.

Perhaps we should look at Tim's stats, starting with how may games he played last season and then making a list of who played more.

I haven't read any wholesale criticism of Ream, simply people pointing out the obvious, he is not good enough to be a starter at Center Back in the Premier League, we cannot afford the risk.

Quote from: filham on August 21, 2020, 10:06:12 PM
Perhaps we should look at Tim's stats, starting with how may games he played last season and then making a list of who played more.

tim only played because kongolo was injured. And he did fantastically well, I'd be amazed if scott has changed his mind and now thinks Tim will be good enough

Quote from: filham on August 21, 2020, 10:06:12 PM
Perhaps we should look at Tim's stats, starting with how may games he played last season and then making a list of who played more.

In the Championship

Quote from: wonderfulthingcali on August 21, 2020, 10:13:31 PM

Quote from: filham on August 21, 2020, 10:06:12 PM
Perhaps we should look at Tim's stats, starting with how may games he played last season and then making a list of who played more.

In the Championship

Did a good job to get us promoted twice? Yes.

Needs replacing because he's not premiership quality? Yes.

I appreciate the responses and further discussion - my main point was how we too quickly criticise most of our players even after success. We can assume that SP will want to play out from the back and wondering with budget options what will be best options for LCB. Tim Ream in my opinion has been pivotal in our 'playing out from the back' style before and from Parker managerial appointment. Tim's defending within our defensive organisation has pinpointed areas for improvement (whether this is individual or group defence is open to further debate), however is Kongolo a better option to replace Tim? What is Kongolo's or AN Other replacement playing out from the back capabilities versus the defensive strengths/requirements.  The value of a top centre back is substantial whilst Chris Smalling would be a good acquisition he would cost a considerable transfer fee plus significant wages. Who else is available better than Tim at a reasonable fee and overall value? We saw last season on occasions that after bringing in MLM at a cost and he's nowhere near being able to play a playing out from the back role.

Quote from: wonderfulthingcali on August 21, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
I haven't read any wholesale criticism of Ream, simply people pointing out the obvious, he is not good enough to be a starter at Center Back in the Premier League, we cannot afford the risk.

I'm happy for Scott Parker to be the judge of that.

I'm Pro Ream aswell and think he's more then capable at the highest level as he proved at the international level and week in week out at Fulham

One can not judge him based on our previous premier league excursion, as the whole team was useless, if your gonna base it on that then the whole team needs to go Mitro included

One thing I will say about Ream is that he's a confidence player, similar to Cairney in that respect, meaning he needs a run of games to find his form, he's not the type of player that's gonna come off the  bench after an injury and play well,  he's All about momentum and flow

He has definitely earnt his right to have another go at the highest level and alongside Hector he could have the season of his career,,,,,

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMM

Anyone saying he should be dumped, shame on you!!!!!

Quote from: Lighthouse on August 21, 2020, 09:36:32 PM
We have posts that ridicule players and coach and owner after every set back. Then the same posters treat the coach and players and owners as heroes after every success. It is what happens on social media. However we have been weak at the back for some time before Hector came. Ream played brilliantly in our last promotion season but wasn't very good in the Prem and had too many iffy moments last season to be relied upon. Although after lockdown he did look closer to his best form.

Football is about opinion and most of us have an opinion even if is uneducated. We support the club and the players but as in any true love affair. We are quick to criticise.

Its almost like your saying posters praise good work and criticise bad work.....jokes aside, I get your meaning though. Parker is a prime example, the margin between him being sacked and ending up as a hero were so marginal in the end. As I said though, if its a disaster next season, I won't be calling for the managers head. Hes earned a go at the top flight, so lets enjoy the ride.

Tim Ream is a proven performer in the Championship but he has shown along with others from the 2018 promotion team (plus MLM) that he isn't good enough for The Premier League. Just my opinion based on the debacle of the season before last. The team conceded 81 goals. It's quite frankly ridiculous to go again with the same players in defence.

I'm less concerned by Ream, more concerned about what we do if he (for whatever reason) can't play.

We have two good options at CB (Tim/Hec), but we need more. Alfie hasn't been able to keep fitness and doesn't seem best suited to Scott's style. Kongolo is gone.

Rate Tim or not, we need better cover at CB, and it just seems sensible to improve on what we have via an upgrade.

Quote from: Radiowhite on August 21, 2020, 09:47:45 PM
Tim ream can't perform in the prem for me it's as simple as that. As much as he is a club hero he can't be starting for us next season.

Exactly.

The problem is there were so few individuals that stood out as positive the last time we were in the PL. The only way this guys will ever start becoming PL quality to supporters is by having them play within context of this management team under Scott Parker. It's a clean slate for everyone imho. That's how our players need to think, and hopefully that's how our management thinks. If individuals like Tim Ream get their chance, I hope he takes it and proves the doubters wrong. At the end of the day, we're all Fulham and I doubt any of us are truly wishing poor performance by anyone willing wear the shirt.

I believe it's a case of wanting to be wise before the event, and not repeat mistakes the last time around.
Nobody should argue against surgery on the back line, and it has been identified by every man and his dog that there are weaknesses. I have no problem with Tim Ream being in the squad and part of a defensive unit, but not sure he can hold a place down for too long, but if he get his chance he should take it. Having said that, the club would be committing suicide of epic proportions if we did not bring in a Premier Quality CB and a RB of the same quality, otherwise it will be another backs to the wall season. It will be too late once the Window closes, the Die will be cast.

Quote from: EastEndWhite on August 21, 2020, 10:21:44 PM

Quote from: wonderfulthingcali on August 21, 2020, 10:12:43 PM
I haven't read any wholesale criticism of Ream, simply people pointing out the obvious, he is not good enough to be a starter at Center Back in the Premier League, we cannot afford the risk.

I'm happy for Scott Parker to be the judge of that.

I am happy for me to maintain my opinion as you can yours, mine is he simply isn't good enough, Let's see if Scott Parkers is any different once the transfer window is closed.

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 10:19:55 PM
I appreciate the responses and further discussion - my main point was how we too quickly criticise most of our players even after success. We can assume that SP will want to play out from the back and wondering with budget options what will be best options for LCB. Tim Ream in my opinion has been pivotal in our 'playing out from the back' style before and from Parker managerial appointment. Tim's defending within our defensive organisation has pinpointed areas for improvement (whether this is individual or group defence is open to further debate), however is Kongolo a better option to replace Tim? What is Kongolo's or AN Other replacement playing out from the back capabilities versus the defensive strengths/requirements.  The value of a top centre back is substantial whilst Chris Smalling would be a good acquisition he would cost a considerable transfer fee plus significant wages. Who else is available better than Tim at a reasonable fee and overall value? We saw last season on occasions that after bringing in MLM at a cost and he's nowhere near being able to play a playing out from the back role.

Why are we limited to "budget options"?

We've got £100m burning a hole in our pocket and Tim is the weakest link

Although FWIW I reckon £4-5m buys a better player than Ream

With all due respect he's league one standard nowadays, I wouldn't even want him in the first XI if we hadn't gone up

We need to bring in one premier league centre back better than Hector, so Hector is the number two CB. Tim Ream can fight Hector and Mawson for the remaining spot in next seasons starting XI. Even if he makes the starting XI, we need to bring in a long term replacement for Ream as he has 1 year left on his contract and doubt he will want to renew after next year as he probably best to finish his career in the USA.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on August 22, 2020, 01:43:13 AM
We need to bring in one premier league centre back better than Hector, so Hector is the number two CB. Tim Ream can fight Hector and Mawson for the remaining spot in next seasons starting XI. Even if he makes the starting XI, we need to bring in a long term replacement for Ream as he has 1 year left on his contract and doubt he will want to renew after next year as he probably best to finish his career in the USA.

That seems reasonable, and yes I go along with your suggestion that the new CB should be better that anyone we already have with Leadership qualities, not an easy task but he has to be out there somewhere.

I do believe he plays better with Hector next to him, Im curious to see how he does, I would love to get another CB in but am also more happy to give Ream another go.

I don't believe it's a case of bashing Ream, most if not all Fulham fans agree he has been and still is a great servant to Fulham having played for years, winning two promotions, player of the year and many plaudits, Most of us are happy to keep him as squad depth but it doesn't take away from the fact that despite playing very well post lock down the first half of the season he wasn't great which followed an awful season last year in the premiership, he isn't getting younger and appears to have lost a half yard of pace which he didn't have to start with. Most fans are happy to have him around and he is a solid back up but if he is our regular starter we are likely in for another disappointing season.

Quote from: Craven Mad on August 21, 2020, 10:45:08 PM
I'm less concerned by Ream, more concerned about what we do if he (for whatever reason) can't play.

We have two good options at CB (Tim/Hec), but we need more. Alfie hasn't been able to keep fitness and doesn't seem best suited to Scott's style. Kongolo is gone.

Rate Tim or not, we need better cover at CB, and it just seems sensible to improve on what we have via an upgrade.

Agree, but we need to be careful and not rush in and buy just anyone, we have had disasters in the recent past. Best start with Tim rather than bring in another Stearman, Sigurdsson or Mawson to name but three.

Quote from: Cookie6262 on August 22, 2020, 09:24:27 AM
I don't believe it's a case of bashing Ream, most if not all Fulham fans agree he has been and still is a great servant to Fulham having played for years, winning two promotions, player of the year and many plaudits, Most of us are happy to keep him as squad depth but it doesn't take away from the fact that despite playing very well post lock down the first half of the season he wasn't great which followed an awful season last year in the premiership, he isn't getting younger and appears to have lost a half yard of pace which he didn't have to start with. Most fans are happy to have him around and he is a solid back up but if he is our regular starter we are likely in for another disappointing season.

I think this is fair comment. This is a forum for comment, some on here will be negative and some positive.

Get behind the team as it will be a tough season.

I dont mind people disagreeing with the critique against Tim, but this is becoming something else. We all just whats best for the club, not whats best for individual players. This reasoning is applied on all players regardless.

When we went up two seasons ago the club made the mistake of changing far too much - this was somewhat forced on them by a lack of foresight and planning.  I don't think we will do that again, but an equally naive error would be to change little or nothing on heading to a markedly harder league.  As the weaker of two starting centre halves it's no surprise that plenty of seasoned commentators on here see him as a candidate for an upgrade.   Nothing personal, no questioning his character at all - he's made admirable use of his talents - but that's just how football is.  Darwinian doesn't quite capture it, it's more like a game of snakes and ladders.  We had better use the ladder of upgrading our centre back while we can because the season will throw up some snakes that we slither down.

I think it was pretty telling that after Kongolo was signed on loan in the winter window he stepped in ahead of Ream as soon as he was available. You'd be mad if you think they aren't looking to improve that position after promotion.

He is isn't good enough for the premier league. Wasn't last time, isn't this. For a long time he seemed to be immune from criticism as a lot of his mistakes led to goals a phase or so later.  His passing has always been ponderous and does not move the ball forward quick enough. He isn't strong enough in the air and certainly isn't quick enough. Having said that I thought his best games of the season were the playoff second leg and the final but I don't judge from the latest one or two games. I judge from Barnsley away 2016 onwards (and I was in the stadium btw) where there have been too many mistakes. There will continue to be. And that was in the championship. Would love to be wrong but 4 plus years is enough to see the limit.

The above is not a personal attack on Tim ream but a statement of my views on his footballing level on a Fulham football forum. It also does not mean I hate Tim ream. It does also not mean I am not a 'supporter' of Fulham as inferred by the OP.  The less than subtle suggestion that the OP views count more because they have a season ticket and live in wandsworth over others here.  I have a season ticket and still do after I moved to New York (I am English btw) in 2018 so does this mean my dedication is more than yours And my views count more? Those inferences you use to try and place your opinion over others is classic on a football forum but also classically wrong.

However, back to the beef, just getting behind the players on a forum (are you suggesting we can't say when we think a player needs to be replaced or something?!?) isn't going to make him good enough. It's not like we are booing him in the stadium.

He's what 30+ now and has been a servant of the club for over 4 seasons but we need to stay up.

Glad we all agree then, we definitely need an upgrade at LCB as a first choice starting position. Not shutting the door on Tim Ream at all, just hopefully upgrading a position that needs it. I am sure he will figure in the team through the season but probably not as a starter.

I don't see many supporters "bashing Ream", far from it. He is a respected and much appreciated member of our senior squad.  There are a few who allege he was never good enough for the Prem, which is a judgement I wouldn't hold with. However I do think that, sadly, his 2nd shot at Prem level football has certainly come too late this time around.  Last time there may have been some mitigating circumstances; he was possibly less well suited to Joka's style than to Parkerball and he certainly had the misfortune to be a part of a dysfunctional team in which it was very hard to do well.  But even then I think he was half a yard short of pace and pace is almost always an essential to be a successful CB in the Premier League.

Ream is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League. He wasn't good enough 2 years ago and he isn't a better player now. Of course there were many other problems with our last PL squad but that doesn't mean our current squad will dominate games in the PL and take some pressure off our defence. That's just not going to happen.

Personally I think Ream has only been good for us in two relatively short periods: Our unbeaten run and post lock down. Apart from that he has been mostly poor IMO. I also personally think his sudden improvement was more about the entire team performing better (he didn't have to do as much actual defending) but he made some horrible mistakes even then.

We won't dominate games in the PL. Starting Ream will be a disaster. He is too slow, not strong enough in the air, makes too many mistakes when trying to hold onto the ball for too long and his great passing stats are misleading. Most of those passes are just short sideways passes to the other CB. When he finally makes the forward pass it's often too late. His teammates are under pressure and we lose the ball in the next move. Any half-decent CB will get great passing stats for us in the Championship. Even Kalas had exceptional passing stats when playing for us but most of those passes were to Ream of course...

LCB is out weakest position by far and should be TKs number one priority. We also desperately need a RB and a DM but LCB is the most critical. Unless we strengthen this position I personally think we will be relegated. We need to strengthen this position ASAP. We have several "must win" games against other relegation candidates in September/October. Signing a new LCB on deadline day will be far too late.

Sorry, I just don't think Ream is good enough for the PL. In fact, I would have wanted a new LCB even if we weren't promoted.

I personally have nothing but praise for Tim Ream.  He has played in a Fulham side that at times has produced stunning football of a kind rarely seen Craven Cottage and he is certainly much more reliable than many other players I have watched.

Quote from: wonderfulthingcali on August 21, 2020, 10:13:31 PM

Quote from: filham on August 21, 2020, 10:06:12 PM
Perhaps we should look at Tim's stats, starting with how may games he played last season and then making a list of who played more.

In the Championship

Right then lets first take a look at Cav.,Knock and Reid's goalscoring record in the championship, does that suggest they are going to be good enough for the premier league.
Remember after Hector started playing  our big problem last season was in attack not defense.

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
I don't post very often because I read some posts and think there are posters supposedly Fulham supporters or possibly other club fans trying to stir the pot. I've read so many negative comments about how Tim Ream has performed over the past season. I see it so differently about how he initiates our attacks from defence as the manager and our style of play dictates. I understand that a mistake or two has materialised but I believe his calmness and passing qualities has been enormous in our gaining promotion. If anyone wishes to rewatch our playoff finals at Wembley on both occasions Tim was outstanding; nullify opposition attackers but calmness in distribution. There is obviously areas for improvement but I loathe the number of messages criticising Tim and other players after such a successful season. I'm not from across the pond but a season ticket holder living in Wandsworth and reading some of the posts on this site which picks on specific players really deflates me. Lets support our players rather than look to criticize them at every opportunity.
Just to add I'd like to comment how lucky we are to have the owners that we do; a new Riverside stand soon to open, continued investment in the playing squad and open discussion/communication with the club supporters.

I think ream gets way to much critical attention and is a far better player than people realise. I do happen to think he may be a half a yard to slow for the prem but we would not let us down if the other three in the vback four and our midfield perform.

i am less inclined to the love in with the owners. they obviously are not afraid of investing and TK clearly loves the club but he remains an amateur in a position that needs a professional. he is sort of doing better but he is way off the required standard. if we keep seri and anguissa that will be a bad thing. the khans simply make too many unforced errors with the squad.

Quote from: ALG01 on August 22, 2020, 12:52:16 PM

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
I don't post very often because I read some posts and think there are posters supposedly Fulham supporters or possibly other club fans trying to stir the pot. I've read so many negative comments about how Tim Ream has performed over the past season. I see it so differently about how he initiates our attacks from defence as the manager and our style of play dictates. I understand that a mistake or two has materialised but I believe his calmness and passing qualities has been enormous in our gaining promotion. If anyone wishes to rewatch our playoff finals at Wembley on both occasions Tim was outstanding; nullify opposition attackers but calmness in distribution. There is obviously areas for improvement but I loathe the number of messages criticising Tim and other players after such a successful season. I'm not from across the pond but a season ticket holder living in Wandsworth and reading some of the posts on this site which picks on specific players really deflates me. Lets support our players rather than look to criticize them at every opportunity.
Just to add I'd like to comment how lucky we are to have the owners that we do; a new Riverside stand soon to open, continued investment in the playing squad and open discussion/communication with the club supporters.

I think ream gets way to much critical attention and is a far better player than people realise. I do happen to think he may be a half a yard to slow for the prem but we would not let us down if the other three in the vback four and our midfield perform.

i am less inclined to the love in with the owners. they obviously are not afraid of investing and TK clearly loves the club but he remains an amateur in a position that needs a professional. he is sort of doing better but he is way off the required standard. if we keep seri and anguissa that will be a bad thing. the khans simply make too many unforced errors with the squad.

in what world would keeping Anguissa be a bad thing. I'd bet my house on him being our best player this season. The bloke is class

Quote from: fulhamben on August 22, 2020, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: ALG01 on August 22, 2020, 12:52:16 PM

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
I don't post very often because I read some posts and think there are posters supposedly Fulham supporters or possibly other club fans trying to stir the pot. I've read so many negative comments about how Tim Ream has performed over the past season. I see it so differently about how he initiates our attacks from defence as the manager and our style of play dictates. I understand that a mistake or two has materialised but I believe his calmness and passing qualities has been enormous in our gaining promotion. If anyone wishes to rewatch our playoff finals at Wembley on both occasions Tim was outstanding; nullify opposition attackers but calmness in distribution. There is obviously areas for improvement but I loathe the number of messages criticising Tim and other players after such a successful season. I'm not from across the pond but a season ticket holder living in Wandsworth and reading some of the posts on this site which picks on specific players really deflates me. Lets support our players rather than look to criticize them at every opportunity.
Just to add I'd like to comment how lucky we are to have the owners that we do; a new Riverside stand soon to open, continued investment in the playing squad and open discussion/communication with the club supporters.

I think ream gets way to much critical attention and is a far better player than people realise. I do happen to think he may be a half a yard to slow for the prem but we would not let us down if the other three in the vback four and our midfield perform.

i am less inclined to the love in with the owners. they obviously are not afraid of investing and TK clearly loves the club but he remains an amateur in a position that needs a professional. he is sort of doing better but he is way off the required standard. if we keep seri and anguissa that will be a bad thing. the khans simply make too many unforced errors with the squad.

in what world would keeping Anguissa be a bad thing. I'd bet my house on him being our best player this season. The bloke is class

i look forward to receipt of the keys of your house.
anguissa was lazy, that will not change. in that world where you need all yourt players to put in maximum effort all the time and never give up on chading lost causes... that world.
anguissa is class indeed, third class.

Quote from: Matt10 on August 22, 2020, 12:41:13 AM
The problem is there were so few individuals that stood out as positive the last time we were in the PL. The only way this guys will ever start becoming PL quality to supporters is by having them play within context of this management team under Scott Parker. It's a clean slate for everyone imho. That's how our players need to think, and hopefully that's how our management thinks. If individuals like Tim Ream get their chance, I hope he takes it and proves the doubters wrong. At the end of the day, we're all Fulham and I doubt any of us are truly wishing poor performance by anyone willing wear the shirt.

Couldn't agree more. Trying to say our last period in the prem is a yardstick for this one means that not a single player from last time is good enough. However, systemmand coaching is as important as personnel, I've said it for years and the reason teams like Burnley, Sheff Utd, and even wolves have done so well.

My sole porpoise is not to be koi but to buri this crappie about bream. Discus or mullet it over - as a ruff sweeper he floundered and got morwong than right. Let minnow if this is tenuis or get orfe. I took a shiner to him in the playoffs as he got betta and did elver a job but did carp about him earlier.

Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Quote from: Whitestone on August 22, 2020, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Which relegation season do you think Mawson proved himself in, the one with Fulham or his previous one.
Sorry Mawson is on the list of failed centre backs we have signed in recent years.

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

Quote from: Whitestone on August 22, 2020, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Which relegation season do you think Mawson proved himself in, the one with Fulham or his previous one.
Sorry Mawson is on the list of failed centre backs we have signed in recent years.

Mawson was called up for England duties whilst at Swansea. Injuries have blighted his time at Fulham. More often than not when he has played it's been out of position next to Ream. IF Mawson was able to show the qualities that Gareth Southgate clearly saw there is no doubt in my mind that he would be a significant upgrade on Ream. A big IF I know but he has demonstrated the ability at the top level. That's why we signed him in the first place. I guess the question we would all like answered is has he still got it. As I said injuries and being played out of position have hindered his progress at Fulham.

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on August 22, 2020, 12:10:36 PM
Ream is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League. He wasn't good enough 2 years ago and he isn't a better player now. Of course there were many other problems with our last PL squad but that doesn't mean our current squad will dominate games in the PL and take some pressure off our defence. That's just not going to happen.

Personally I think Ream has only been good for us in two relatively short periods: Our unbeaten run and post lock down. Apart from that he has been mostly poor IMO. I also personally think his sudden improvement was more about the entire team performing better (he didn't have to do as much actual defending) but he made some horrible mistakes even then.

We won't dominate games in the PL. Starting Ream will be a disaster. He is too slow, not strong enough in the air, makes too many mistakes when trying to hold onto the ball for too long and his great passing stats are misleading. Most of those passes are just short sideways passes to the other CB. When he finally makes the forward pass it's often too late. His teammates are under pressure and we lose the ball in the next move. Any half-decent CB will get great passing stats for us in the Championship. Even Kalas had exceptional passing stats when playing for us but most of those passes were to Ream of course...

LCB is out weakest position by far and should be TKs number one priority. We also desperately need a RB and a DM but LCB is the most critical. Unless we strengthen this position I personally think we will be relegated. We need to strengthen this position ASAP. We have several "must win" games against other relegation candidates in September/October. Signing a new LCB on deadline day will be far too late.

Sorry, I just don't think Ream is good enough for the PL. In fact, I would have wanted a new LCB even if we weren't promoted.

Ok so ther is the odd Ream basher.

Quote from: Whitestone on August 22, 2020, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Agreed

Quote from: Twig on August 22, 2020, 05:00:40 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on August 22, 2020, 12:10:36 PM
Ream is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League. He wasn't good enough 2 years ago and he isn't a better player now. Of course there were many other problems with our last PL squad but that doesn't mean our current squad will dominate games in the PL and take some pressure off our defence. That's just not going to happen.

Personally I think Ream has only been good for us in two relatively short periods: Our unbeaten run and post lock down. Apart from that he has been mostly poor IMO. I also personally think his sudden improvement was more about the entire team performing better (he didn't have to do as much actual defending) but he made some horrible mistakes even then.

We won't dominate games in the PL. Starting Ream will be a disaster. He is too slow, not strong enough in the air, makes too many mistakes when trying to hold onto the ball for too long and his great passing stats are misleading. Most of those passes are just short sideways passes to the other CB. When he finally makes the forward pass it's often too late. His teammates are under pressure and we lose the ball in the next move. Any half-decent CB will get great passing stats for us in the Championship. Even Kalas had exceptional passing stats when playing for us but most of those passes were to Ream of course...

LCB is out weakest position by far and should be TKs number one priority. We also desperately need a RB and a DM but LCB is the most critical. Unless we strengthen this position I personally think we will be relegated. We need to strengthen this position ASAP. We have several "must win" games against other relegation candidates in September/October. Signing a new LCB on deadline day will be far too late.

Sorry, I just don't think Ream is good enough for the PL. In fact, I would have wanted a new LCB even if we weren't promoted.

Ok so ther is the odd Ream basher.

Make that two because I agree with him

Quote from: Tabby on August 22, 2020, 11:14:20 AM
I think it was pretty telling that after Kongolo was signed on loan in the winter window he stepped in ahead of Ream as soon as he was available.

Whether Kongolo, had he not suffered his season-ending injury, would have stepped in ahead of Ream eventually is a matter of opinion. He was, however, a substitute at both Charlton and Blackburn when Ream was in the starting XI. In between was the cup-tie against Manchester City, which both players started.

I don't really see much 'Ream Bashing' as described in the OP. Just the opinion that he is not good enough in the Prem as was proven last time we were there. And I have to agree with that. We need more pace and he does not have that for Prem level.

Quote from: Twig on August 22, 2020, 05:00:40 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on August 22, 2020, 12:10:36 PM
Ream is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League. He wasn't good enough 2 years ago and he isn't a better player now. Of course there were many other problems with our last PL squad but that doesn't mean our current squad will dominate games in the PL and take some pressure off our defence. That's just not going to happen.

Personally I think Ream has only been good for us in two relatively short periods: Our unbeaten run and post lock down. Apart from that he has been mostly poor IMO. I also personally think his sudden improvement was more about the entire team performing better (he didn't have to do as much actual defending) but he made some horrible mistakes even then.

We won't dominate games in the PL. Starting Ream will be a disaster. He is too slow, not strong enough in the air, makes too many mistakes when trying to hold onto the ball for too long and his great passing stats are misleading. Most of those passes are just short sideways passes to the other CB. When he finally makes the forward pass it's often too late. His teammates are under pressure and we lose the ball in the next move. Any half-decent CB will get great passing stats for us in the Championship. Even Kalas had exceptional passing stats when playing for us but most of those passes were to Ream of course...

LCB is out weakest position by far and should be TKs number one priority. We also desperately need a RB and a DM but LCB is the most critical. Unless we strengthen this position I personally think we will be relegated. We need to strengthen this position ASAP. We have several "must win" games against other relegation candidates in September/October. Signing a new LCB on deadline day will be far too late.

Sorry, I just don't think Ream is good enough for the PL. In fact, I would have wanted a new LCB even if we weren't promoted.

Ok so ther is the odd Ream basher.

if wanting an upgrade in one of your weakest positions makes you ream basher, then I'll hold my hands up, I'm a ream basher. If our object is to just hope for the best with the squad we have and try and yo-yo for a few season in the hope we get it right, then so be it. but if we want a realistic, chance of staying up then we can not, be going with a back four of Bryan ream hector and Christie

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 09:35:22 PM
no its his son.

hahahahaha if that's true; biased much?

I agree with wooly and a lot of others on here. Ream has had his day but at his age well into his 30's it would be wrong to expect him to still be at the top of his game. I would hope that the management would sit him down and see whether he wants to be a fringe player with us or a regular  with a lower club. Whatever he wants we should assist him with his last pay day

Quote from: Andy S on August 22, 2020, 09:31:31 PM
I agree with wooly and a lot of others on here. Ream has had his day but at his age well into his 30's it would be wrong to expect him to still be at the top of his game. I would hope that the management would sit him down and see whether he wants to be a fringe player with us or a regular  with a lower club. Whatever he wants we should assist him with his last pay day

Seems a bit premature since as of today he is probably a starter, whether or not you agree with it.

Whatever  people might say about his Prem suitability, Ream has been an integral part of the team that have got us  back into the Prem first time of asking.

And as Sting says, he holds that cb position at the moment, and would probably be one of our cb's if the Prem season started this week.

Whatever his faults, and you could equally discuss his strengths, to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous, as well as treating human beings as if they were like  robots, mere pawns in our game.

I'm sure the management are making every effort to prepare us for the difficult season ahead, and looking to sign new players, especially in defence perhaps, but at the moment Ream is  one of our cb's, a position in which he has recently so impressed, as well as his years of service to the club.

I've never understood the Ream bashing, and be sure there is a lot. He is and has been a player with a good head, good on the ball with little pace or jumping ability. He looked bad the last time around in the Prem because what was next to him. MLM isn't good enough for the Championship. Mawson came  (like Segerson) with a reputation but no delivery and Mawson with a constant stream of injuries. I doubt that he will ever be fit or capable of being a decent sub much less a starter. Kongolo also came with a reputation but we never got the chance to see if he was the real deal. He like Mawson was a good defender on a bad team. I always wonder if they look good because they are or because what is around them is so bad.
We need a replacement for Ream because of age and a lack of pace. Unless we bring in a quality CB, Ream will be the starter and available for abuse all season.

Quote from: ALG01 on August 22, 2020, 12:59:35 PM

Quote from: fulhamben on August 22, 2020, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: ALG01 on August 22, 2020, 12:52:16 PM

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
I don't post very often because I read some posts and think there are posters supposedly Fulham supporters or possibly other club fans trying to stir the pot. I've read so many negative comments about how Tim Ream has performed over the past season. I see it so differently about how he initiates our attacks from defence as the manager and our style of play dictates. I understand that a mistake or two has materialised but I believe his calmness and passing qualities has been enormous in our gaining promotion. If anyone wishes to rewatch our playoff finals at Wembley on both occasions Tim was outstanding; nullify opposition attackers but calmness in distribution. There is obviously areas for improvement but I loathe the number of messages criticising Tim and other players after such a successful season. I'm not from across the pond but a season ticket holder living in Wandsworth and reading some of the posts on this site which picks on specific players really deflates me. Lets support our players rather than look to criticize them at every opportunity.
Just to add I'd like to comment how lucky we are to have the owners that we do; a new Riverside stand soon to open, continued investment in the playing squad and open discussion/communication with the club supporters.

I think ream gets way to much critical attention and is a far better player than people realise. I do happen to think he may be a half a yard to slow for the prem but we would not let us down if the other three in the vback four and our midfield perform.

i am less inclined to the love in with the owners. they obviously are not afraid of investing and TK clearly loves the club but he remains an amateur in a position that needs a professional. he is sort of doing better but he is way off the required standard. if we keep seri and anguissa that will be a bad thing. the khans simply make too many unforced errors with the squad.

in what world would keeping Anguissa be a bad thing. I'd bet my house on him being our best player this season. The bloke is class

i look forward to receipt of the keys of your house.
anguissa was lazy, that will not change. in that world where you need all yourt players to put in maximum effort all the time and never give up on chading lost causes... that world.
anguissa is class indeed, third class.

Anguissa has succeeded in leagues just below premier league in standard (such as Championship, La Liga and Ligue Un) like Rodak, Hector, Reed, Cairney and Knockaert. If you consider Anguissa third class may I ask what player apart from Mitrovic is even second-class in this squad, and do you think a second-class player would even be available for us to but anyway.

Quote from: Motspur on August 21, 2020, 10:19:55 PM
I appreciate the responses and further discussion - my main point was how we too quickly criticise most of our players even after success. We can assume that SP will want to play out from the back and wondering with budget options what will be best options for LCB. Tim Ream in my opinion has been pivotal in our 'playing out from the back' style before and from Parker managerial appointment. Tim's defending within our defensive organisation has pinpointed areas for improvement (whether this is individual or group defence is open to further debate), however is Kongolo a better option to replace Tim? What is Kongolo's or AN Other replacement playing out from the back capabilities versus the defensive strengths/requirements.  The value of a top centre back is substantial whilst Chris Smalling would be a good acquisition he would cost a considerable transfer fee plus significant wages. Who else is available better than Tim at a reasonable fee and overall value? We saw last season on occasions that after bringing in MLM at a cost and he's nowhere near being able to play a playing out from the back role.

Success is relative. There was a 13 year gap where we were a premier league team, had a couple of top 10 finishes and got into Europe three times and one final. I don't see success as getting out of the championship twice in three years.

Well it has to be regarded as such. You can only play the teams that are there

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
Whatever  people might say about his Prem suitability, Ream has been an integral part of the team that have got us  back into the Prem first time of asking.

And as Sting says, he holds that cb position at the moment, and would probably be one of our cb's if the Prem season started this week.

Whatever his faults, and you could equally discuss his strengths, to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous, as well as treating human beings as if they were like  robots, mere pawns in our game.

I'm sure the management are making every effort to prepare us for the difficult season ahead, and looking to sign new players, especially in defence perhaps, but at the moment Ream is  one of our cb's, a position in which he has recently so impressed, as well as his years of service to the club.

Well said Ray

Quote from: Whitestone on August 22, 2020, 04:37:19 PM

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 04:21:24 PM

Quote from: Whitestone on August 22, 2020, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: filham on August 22, 2020, 02:50:31 PM
Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Which relegation season do you think Mawson proved himself in, the one with Fulham or his previous one.
Sorry Mawson is on the list of failed centre backs we have signed in recent years.

Mawson was called up for England duties whilst at Swansea. Injuries have blighted his time at Fulham. More often than not when he has played it's been out of position next to Ream. IF Mawson was able to show the qualities that Gareth Southgate clearly saw there is no doubt in my mind that he would be a significant upgrade on Ream. A big IF I know but he has demonstrated the ability at the top level. That's why we signed him in the first place. I guess the question we would all like answered is has he still got it. As I said injuries and being played out of position have hindered his progress at Fulham.

In the championship run in there were twelve critical post Lockdown matches played in a very tight schedule where Mawson was fit and available for selection. Parker chose the Hector/ Ream partnership for all of these matches. Why was Mawson never selected, even if only to rest Ream.
I imagine parker thought that Mawson was too much of a risk.

It is all about being wise before the event.
Now that we are in the Premier League, if we wish to stay there for more than one season.
We will have to upgrade a number of positions which were looking stretched at times in the Championship, and the defence is the first port of call.
We will be facing faster sharper and more ruthless opponents who will take no prisoners when they take the field of play.
We have to start with the defence, by making ourselves hard to score against, whether you are for or against or somewhere in the middle with Tim Ream, it is plainly obvious we need an upgrade at CB whether you like it or not. There will injuries, illness, loss of form and possible suspensions which will take its toll on our squad if it stays the way it is.
We need an upgrade at RB and CB, that is a minimum requirement, a no brainer.
I do not understand why people are saying that it is some form of Ream bashing.
It is called having an opinion and sometimes supporters will say it how it is which may come across as harsh, and sometimes other supporters will be more discreet and show a little more respect to a loyal reliable player.
However, whichever your opinion, whether we like it or not, we need a top draw CB that is a priority, otherwise it could be a very long hard season, because with all the best will in the world and all the organisation and preparation from Scott Parker and his coaches, not withstanding injuries etc, we cannot expect to keep many clean sheets as we are now, and bearing in mind if we keep a clean sheet, we only have to score one goal to win a game.
So this debate about Tim Ream can roll on and roll on, but I expect to see another CB recruited before the season commences as surely the club have identified our short comings by now.
Having said that I won't hold my breath, but at the same time the crack recruitment unit could be beavering away at this very moment to resolve this obvious problem in time to meet the Arsenal which will be the 1st of 38 Cup Finals.
By then we would have a better idea if Fulham have learnt any lessons since our last spell in the top flight.

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2020, 10:55:15 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 23, 2020, 11:37:56 AM

Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2020, 10:55:15 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

In a system where it's required to build up from the back, we do need someone who can be super accurate, that's right. However, the fact that Ream may give the ball away on occassion is probably because he not only led defenders in the amount of passes - but the entire league for total passes - among all positions.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/1A0R4t.png)

Quote from: Matt10 on August 23, 2020, 09:04:30 PM

Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 23, 2020, 11:37:56 AM

Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2020, 10:55:15 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

In a system where it's required to build up from the back, we do need someone who can be super accurate, that's right. However, the fact that Ream may give the ball away on occassion is probably because he not only led defenders in the amount of passes - but the entire league for total passes - among all positions.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/1A0R4t.png)

Alfie Mawson is in 27th positon for most passes in the championship with 1885 passes, while Hector is 62nd position with 1510 passes. I'm not sure what 7053 passes by centre backs for a season playing a back four means, but it is an enormous amount.

Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He looked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we were wide open . We wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

Quote from: colinwhite on August 24, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on August 24, 2020, 06:33:48 AM

Quote from: colinwhite on August 24, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

Agreed.

SP got us up with the team he played, and I, for one, am not going to question his decision-making as to which squad players he deems - after training with them all week - is worthy of a place in the starting 11, which ones warm the bench, and which ones aren't included.

Quote from: Logicalman on August 24, 2020, 02:02:44 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on August 24, 2020, 06:33:48 AM

Quote from: colinwhite on August 24, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

Agreed.

SP got us up with the team he played, and I, for one, am not going to question his decision-making as to which squad players he deems - after training with them all week - is worthy of a place in the starting 11, which ones warm the bench, and which ones aren't included.

:plus one:

I very much doubt that the team that got us up would keep us up. Some of that team won't be regular starters in the Prem. Thats normal for any promoted team. I'm fairly sure that Parker is under no illusions and is very aware of the weaknesses just as the fans are and I'd be surprised and disappointed if the club didn't recruit to fill those areas that found us out last time.

The loyalty against all evidence to the contrary (or searching for evidence to fit the narrative) is commendable. Let's revisit this thread a few weeks/months into the season if Ream indeed is given game time and see where opinions sit then (and if the 'bashers' were actually right all along).

I do not feel it is necessarily Bashing, more of Constructive Analysis. 
Nothing wrong with that, everyone has their own way of explaining their reasons as to why they are concerned with Fulhams return is a lot smoother and successful, and naturally there will positions that will be identified as being cause for concern. It is a natural reaction when a club moves up to a higher level.
So it is a standard debate that is dissected until the cows come home.
So bashing is for me the wrong adjective as the comments are not hostile. 

Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2020, 10:55:15 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on August 22, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

I'm not saying we don't need to get a LCB in, but I do feel Ream can do a job in the prem, if need be. You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player? Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

Yes, he's not pacy and is probably not as quick as he used to be, but that doesn't mean his attributes count for nothing. Like others have said, his calmness on the ball is great to see in a defender and his vision for forward passes is nice. Again, I'm not saying we don't need to get a LCB in, but if needed, I don't have a problem with Ream slotting in at LCB for now.

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 23, 2020, 10:30:24 AM
It is all about being wise before the event.
Now that we are in the Premier League, if we wish to stay there for more than one season.
We will have to upgrade a number of positions which were looking stretched at times in the Championship, and the defence is the first port of call.
We will be facing faster sharper and more ruthless opponents who will take no prisoners when they take the field of play.
We have to start with the defence, by making ourselves hard to score against, whether you are for or against or somewhere in the middle with Tim Ream, it is plainly obvious we need an upgrade at CB whether you like it or not. There will injuries, illness, loss of form and possible suspensions which will take its toll on our squad if it stays the way it is.
We need an upgrade at RB and CB, that is a minimum requirement, a no brainer.
I do not understand why people are saying that it is some form of Ream bashing.
It is called having an opinion and sometimes supporters will say it how it is which may come across as harsh, and sometimes other supporters will be more discreet and show a little more respect to a loyal reliable player.
However, whichever your opinion, whether we like it or not, we need a top draw CB that is a priority, otherwise it could be a very long hard season, because with all the best will in the world and all the organisation and preparation from Scott Parker and his coaches, not withstanding injuries etc, we cannot expect to keep many clean sheets as we are now, and bearing in mind if we keep a clean sheet, we only have to score one goal to win a game.
So this debate about Tim Ream can roll on and roll on, but I expect to see another CB recruited before the season commences as surely the club have identified our short comings by now.
Having said that I won't hold my breath, but at the same time the crack recruitment unit could be beavering away at this very moment to resolve this obvious problem in time to meet the Arsenal which will be the 1st of 38 Cup Finals.
By then we would have a better idea if Fulham have learnt any lessons since our last spell in the top flight.

Spot on. If we are to survive in the Premier league next season we need an impenetrable back line. For all his qualities and his contribution to the club, Tim Ream in my opinion falls short.

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Quote from: Statto on August 24, 2020, 07:42:04 PM

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Ok, fair enough. That's a good point. I guess I'm just saying that Ream has helped us to two promotions back to the premier league, and I wouldn't have a problem with him starting until we find another option at LCB.

Quote from: Statto on August 24, 2020, 07:42:04 PM

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

Quote from: filham on August 24, 2020, 08:22:03 PM
Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

He had knee surgery earlier this year.

First 4 matches after the lockdown, he wasn't in the squad, presumably because he was still recovering. So clearly not "fit" at all.

Thereafter, he was on the bench but would clearly have been lacking sharpness. Again, almost certainly not "fit".

If Parker had Virgil Van Dijk on the bench in those circumstances, it would have been mad to bring him in just for the run-in/play-offs when we were playing well and he hadn't started since for over six months.

And on another thread, an ITK poster has said there are other issues in play as well.

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 08:12:17 PM

Quote from: Statto on August 24, 2020, 07:42:04 PM

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Quote from: VamosFFC on August 24, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Ok, fair enough. That's a good point. I guess I'm just saying that Ream has helped us to two promotions back to the premier league, and I wouldn't have a problem with him starting until we find another option at LCB.

In fairness I'm being very harsh/exaggerating about the player of the season award. You made a valid point.

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I'm on the nice to have had him in the championship, was a solid and reliable defender to have, but simply won't cut it in the premiership brigade - he's much older and slower now and a clear weakness when you're getting the pace masters of the likes of Adama Traore, Zaha, Martial, Sterling etc up against him.

Another point re the Mawson starting, he's a RCB, not the LCB which is what Ream is. Mawson was starting alongside Ream and Hector came in to take his starting spot. Mawson did play over 20 odd games for us starting this season.

Quote from: General on August 24, 2020, 10:12:49 PM
I'm on the nice to have had him in the championship, was a solid and reliable defender to have, but simply won't cut it in the premiership brigade - he's much older and slower now and a clear weakness when you're getting the pace masters of the likes of Adama Traore, Zaha, Martial, Sterling etc up against him.

Another point re the Mawson starting, he's a RCB, not the LCB which is what Ream is. Mawson was starting alongside Ream and Hector came in to take his starting spot. Mawson did play over 20 odd games for us starting this season.

I believe Mawson is a left centre back.

Quote from: Statto on August 24, 2020, 08:29:52 PM

Quote from: filham on August 24, 2020, 08:22:03 PM
Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

He had knee surgery earlier this year.

First 4 matches after the lockdown, he wasn't in the squad, presumably because he was still recovering. So clearly not "fit" at all.

Thereafter, he was on the bench but would clearly have been lacking sharpness. Again, almost certainly not "fit".

If Parker had Virgil Van Dijk on the bench in those circumstances, it would have been mad to bring him in just for the run-in/play-offs when we were playing well and he hadn't started since for over six months.

And on another thread, an ITK poster has said there are other issues in play as well.

The other thread implied Mawson wasn't fit in any of the matches he played this season, although he was fit for the later part of the post lockdown period. May I remind people that both Mawson and MLM have been chosen over Ream our last premier league game, no guarantee that he won't do it again.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on August 25, 2020, 05:19:52 AM

Quote from: Statto on August 24, 2020, 08:29:52 PM

Quote from: filham on August 24, 2020, 08:22:03 PM
Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

He had knee surgery earlier this year.

First 4 matches after the lockdown, he wasn't in the squad, presumably because he was still recovering. So clearly not "fit" at all.

Thereafter, he was on the bench but would clearly have been lacking sharpness. Again, almost certainly not "fit".

If Parker had Virgil Van Dijk on the bench in those circumstances, it would have been mad to bring him in just for the run-in/play-offs when we were playing well and he hadn't started since for over six months.

And on another thread, an ITK poster has said there are other issues in play as well.

The other thread implied Mawson wasn't fit in any of the matches he played this season, although he was fit for the later part of the post lockdown period. May I remind people that both Mawson and MLM have been chosen over Ream our last premier league game, no guarantee that he won't do it again.

do I need to remind you of the score in that game? I personally don't want to see any of those 3 starting for us this season

I am very sure that when it comes to strengthening squads it isn't just a question of saying replace player A with player B, where player = GK, CB, FB, DM, CM, WM, etc., however precise you want to be.  Players form partnerships in all team sports and it's from the success of these that teams function better or worse both in micro and macro ways.   You can never replace like for like in life and so when something works well with its partnering stock then stick with it for as long as you can.

I try not to have expectations of new signings because I got fed up as a youngster with dashed hopes.  Unexpected delight and pleasure is, for me, so very much better.   And so I just hoped Hector would be an improvement on Mawson's signing, not because Mawson was a poor player, but simply because he always seemed handicapped by his suspect knee(s) and there is not a lot he can do about it except train hard and do the essential physio like young Marlon Fossey.   Of course I have read the suggestions elsewhere that that is not the only reason Mawson doesn't get starts and don't pretend to comprehend them. 

Tim Ream is an exceptional talent and whilst he is getting older it is the team's set up that has generally made life more difficult for him especially in our PL season when everything that could be wrong was wrong at times.   Ream is a very good game reader but he does need, like everyone else, support in terms of pace from those around him, just like Hector does.   Last season, was, at times, a struggle to watch because when things went wrong they tended to go very wrong – echoes of the PL muddle.   That is something that needs to be dealt with as a team issue involving how the team sets up to cope with very attack minded and fast opponents and it has been that way for a long time.  Brentford may not be a top six PL team but we effectively shut them out of that final and they are no easy pushover.  Perhaps one day we will have a formidable pair of central defenders and still have the same issues we see with Hector and Ream but I am hopeful that if central midfield and both flanks are sorted we will give our defenders better cover because the team will be better balanced.  That it turn allows the defensive players to give their best.

And so by all means look to improve upon Tim Ream but please don't think it is simply a matter of replacing A with B, as I am sure Parker is well aware.

He is good at Championship Level don't need him in the Premier League unless we play the likes of Brighton or any other dead team

Quote from: toshes mate on August 25, 2020, 09:48:57 AM
Tim Ream is an exceptional talent and whilst he is getting older it is the team's set up that has generally made life more difficult for him especially in our PL season when everything that could be wrong was wrong at times.   Ream is a very good game reader but he does need, like everyone else, support in terms of pace from those around him, just like Hector does.   Last season, was, at times, a struggle to watch because when things went wrong they tended to go very wrong – echoes of the PL muddle.   That is something that needs to be dealt with as a team issue involving how the team sets up to cope with very attack minded and fast opponents and it has been that way for a long time.  Brentford may not be a top six PL team but we effectively shut them out of that final and they are no easy pushover.

This seems an insightful and accurate observation.

I am of the view the approach Parker assumed for the play-off final will be the blueprint for this coming season - whereby, as his starting point, he looked at how to negate the attacking threat Brentford posed and, from there, at what scope this left for us to cause our opponents problems. If it happens, it would, of course, represent something of a departure from the previous ethos: possession of the ball being the means to a victorious end. This is not to say I think we shall no longer try to pass our way through the middle third of the pitch, but as is noted above, the quality and ability of many of our opponents will be such that unless (a la Brentford) we have an organised, well-drilled defensive plan in which every player is acutely aware of his role, bringing in new defensive personnel is, in itself, of limited value.

For Parker and his coaching staff, finding the right tactics, game-by-game, to make it more difficult for the opposition to score against us while also looking at how to exploit opportunities to go on the offensive will doubtless require a good deal of knowledge and measure of ingenuity. For the neutral, it may not make for open, end-to-end, exciting football. Nevertheless, if Parker can find a game-plan to help counter the likes of the Palace's, Newcastle's and West Ham's of our league, as a spectator with a vested interest, I anticipate many of our games will be absorbing to watch.