Ream Bashers

[BestOfBrede]

Whatever  people might say about his Prem suitability, Ream has been an integral part of the team that have got us  back into the Prem first time of asking.

And as Sting says, he holds that cb position at the moment, and would probably be one of our cb's if the Prem season started this week.

Whatever his faults, and you could equally discuss his strengths, to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous, as well as treating human beings as if they were like  robots, mere pawns in our game.

I'm sure the management are making every effort to prepare us for the difficult season ahead, and looking to sign new players, especially in defence perhaps, but at the moment Ream is  one of our cb's, a position in which he has recently so impressed, as well as his years of service to the club.

Well said Ray

[filham]

Yes of course we need a new centre back of quality but for those that have no faith in Ream just stop and think what it would be like if we fail to sign a new player and Ream is injured for the Arsenal game.
Then a back four without Ream against a top team and we have reason for concern.

We have Alfie Mawson if the circumstances you describe were to occur. Alfie is proven at Premier League level and IMO a better player than Ream.

Which relegation season do you think Mawson proved himself in, the one with Fulham or his previous one.
Sorry Mawson is on the list of failed centre backs we have signed in recent years.

Mawson was called up for England duties whilst at Swansea. Injuries have blighted his time at Fulham. More often than not when he has played it's been out of position next to Ream. IF Mawson was able to show the qualities that Gareth Southgate clearly saw there is no doubt in my mind that he would be a significant upgrade on Ream. A big IF I know but he has demonstrated the ability at the top level. That's why we signed him in the first place. I guess the question we would all like answered is has he still got it. As I said injuries and being played out of position have hindered his progress at Fulham.

In the championship run in there were twelve critical post Lockdown matches played in a very tight schedule where Mawson was fit and available for selection. Parker chose the Hector/ Ream partnership for all of these matches. Why was Mawson never selected, even if only to rest Ream.
I imagine parker thought that Mawson was too much of a risk.

[Woolly Mammoth]

It is all about being wise before the event.
Now that we are in the Premier League, if we wish to stay there for more than one season.
We will have to upgrade a number of positions which were looking stretched at times in the Championship, and the defence is the first port of call.
We will be facing faster sharper and more ruthless opponents who will take no prisoners when they take the field of play.
We have to start with the defence, by making ourselves hard to score against, whether you are for or against or somewhere in the middle with Tim Ream, it is plainly obvious we need an upgrade at CB whether you like it or not. There will injuries, illness, loss of form and possible suspensions which will take its toll on our squad if it stays the way it is.
We need an upgrade at RB and CB, that is a minimum requirement, a no brainer.
I do not understand why people are saying that it is some form of Ream bashing.
It is called having an opinion and sometimes supporters will say it how it is which may come across as harsh, and sometimes other supporters will be more discreet and show a little more respect to a loyal reliable player.
However, whichever your opinion, whether we like it or not, we need a top draw CB that is a priority, otherwise it could be a very long hard season, because with all the best will in the world and all the organisation and preparation from Scott Parker and his coaches, not withstanding injuries etc, we cannot expect to keep many clean sheets as we are now, and bearing in mind if we keep a clean sheet, we only have to score one goal to win a game.
So this debate about Tim Ream can roll on and roll on, but I expect to see another CB recruited before the season commences as surely the club have identified our short comings by now.
Having said that I won't hold my breath, but at the same time the crack recruitment unit could be beavering away at this very moment to resolve this obvious problem in time to meet the Arsenal which will be the 1st of 38 Cup Finals.
By then we would have a better idea if Fulham have learnt any lessons since our last spell in the top flight.

[Statto]

to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

[FFCFOREVER]

to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

[Matt10]

to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

In a system where it's required to build up from the back, we do need someone who can be super accurate, that's right. However, the fact that Ream may give the ball away on occassion is probably because he not only led defenders in the amount of passes - but the entire league for total passes - among all positions.

[The Rational Fan]

to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

This exactly. Plus the fact he gives the ball away far too often unnecessarily, even at Championship level.

In a system where it's required to build up from the back, we do need someone who can be super accurate, that's right. However, the fact that Ream may give the ball away on occassion is probably because he not only led defenders in the amount of passes - but the entire league for total passes - among all positions.

Alfie Mawson is in 27th positon for most passes in the championship with 1885 passes, while Hector is 62nd position with 1510 passes. I'm not sure what 7053 passes by centre backs for a season playing a back four means, but it is an enormous amount.

[colinwhite]

Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He looked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we were wide open . We wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

[The Rational Fan]

Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

[Logicalman]

Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

Agreed.

SP got us up with the team he played, and I, for one, am not going to question his decision-making as to which squad players he deems - after training with them all week - is worthy of a place in the starting 11, which ones warm the bench, and which ones aren't included.

[SuffolkWhite]

Tim ream has been agreat servant for the club and deserves alot more respect than he gets. He lloked poor in the Pl last time around but then again so did other decent players as we wide open . we wont be that this time and Parker Will judge whether or not Ream is up to the task. He will be difficult to replace thats for sure.

I find the fans are especially critical whoever is the worst player in the starting XI, when almost by definition making the starting XI means the coach thinks that player is better than everyone else in the squad in that position (apart from a few of the other 10 players in the starting XI).

It's like we criticize our 11th best player each game when we don't have anyone better in the squad, but ignore that the real problem which is that the coach thinks the player is the best in that position. Instead of selling and discarding players, we should be finding a few good players each season and moving the player that are no longer the best in their position to the bench.

Agreed.

SP got us up with the team he played, and I, for one, am not going to question his decision-making as to which squad players he deems - after training with them all week - is worthy of a place in the starting 11, which ones warm the bench, and which ones aren't included.

:plus one:

[Whitestone]

I very much doubt that the team that got us up would keep us up. Some of that team won't be regular starters in the Prem. Thats normal for any promoted team. I'm fairly sure that Parker is under no illusions and is very aware of the weaknesses just as the fans are and I'd be surprised and disappointed if the club didn't recruit to fill those areas that found us out last time.

[ByTheRiver]

The loyalty against all evidence to the contrary (or searching for evidence to fit the narrative) is commendable. Let's revisit this thread a few weeks/months into the season if Ream indeed is given game time and see where opinions sit then (and if the 'bashers' were actually right all along).

[Woolly Mammoth]

I do not feel it is necessarily Bashing, more of Constructive Analysis. 
Nothing wrong with that, everyone has their own way of explaining their reasons as to why they are concerned with Fulhams return is a lot smoother and successful, and naturally there will positions that will be identified as being cause for concern. It is a natural reaction when a club moves up to a higher level.
So it is a standard debate that is dissected until the cows come home.
So bashing is for me the wrong adjective as the comments are not hostile. 

[VamosFFC]

to say he is suddenly past it and should put out to grass, when just weeks ago he was so solid defensively, and important in our playing it out from the back style, along with Hector,  in the  play-offs, seems ludicrous

To explain the logic, it's not that he's "suddenly past it". At PL level, he was past it two years ago and actually, probably never was "it" (good enough for the PL) anyway

Personally, I've never perceived Ream to be a good enough 'defender' even for a top 6 Championship side

First season or so he played for us, he was irrefutably poor

He remained poor at defending but maintained his place in the team, let's be honest, because he was left-footed, and less bad at passing than most Championship defenders

He eventually managed to look good (at Championship level) with a very solid defender next to him (Kalas) in a team that dominated possession such that he rarely had much defending to do anyway

When we went up, he returned to looking poor, really poor to be frank, at PL level

Since then, he's managed to get through another Championship season, again playing alongside two very good defenders (Mawson then Hector) in a team that dominates possesion. Yes he's looked competent for spells, but woeful at other times - and this is only at Champiomship level. He's also aged a year (two years once we get into the season) and his physical weaknesses will have exacerbated.

I'm not saying we don't need to get a LCB in, but I do feel Ream can do a job in the prem, if need be. You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player? Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

Yes, he's not pacy and is probably not as quick as he used to be, but that doesn't mean his attributes count for nothing. Like others have said, his calmness on the ball is great to see in a defender and his vision for forward passes is nice. Again, I'm not saying we don't need to get a LCB in, but if needed, I don't have a problem with Ream slotting in at LCB for now.

[cottage expat]

It is all about being wise before the event.
Now that we are in the Premier League, if we wish to stay there for more than one season.
We will have to upgrade a number of positions which were looking stretched at times in the Championship, and the defence is the first port of call.
We will be facing faster sharper and more ruthless opponents who will take no prisoners when they take the field of play.
We have to start with the defence, by making ourselves hard to score against, whether you are for or against or somewhere in the middle with Tim Ream, it is plainly obvious we need an upgrade at CB whether you like it or not. There will injuries, illness, loss of form and possible suspensions which will take its toll on our squad if it stays the way it is.
We need an upgrade at RB and CB, that is a minimum requirement, a no brainer.
I do not understand why people are saying that it is some form of Ream bashing.
It is called having an opinion and sometimes supporters will say it how it is which may come across as harsh, and sometimes other supporters will be more discreet and show a little more respect to a loyal reliable player.
However, whichever your opinion, whether we like it or not, we need a top draw CB that is a priority, otherwise it could be a very long hard season, because with all the best will in the world and all the organisation and preparation from Scott Parker and his coaches, not withstanding injuries etc, we cannot expect to keep many clean sheets as we are now, and bearing in mind if we keep a clean sheet, we only have to score one goal to win a game.
So this debate about Tim Ream can roll on and roll on, but I expect to see another CB recruited before the season commences as surely the club have identified our short comings by now.
Having said that I won't hold my breath, but at the same time the crack recruitment unit could be beavering away at this very moment to resolve this obvious problem in time to meet the Arsenal which will be the 1st of 38 Cup Finals.
By then we would have a better idea if Fulham have learnt any lessons since our last spell in the top flight.

Spot on. If we are to survive in the Premier league next season we need an impenetrable back line. For all his qualities and his contribution to the club, Tim Ream in my opinion falls short.

[Statto]

You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

[VamosFFC]

You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Ok, fair enough. That's a good point. I guess I'm just saying that Ream has helped us to two promotions back to the premier league, and I wouldn't have a problem with him starting until we find another option at LCB.

[filham]

You say Ream managed to look good with a solid defender (Kalas) next to him, but how do you explain Ream winning Player of the Season that year when we went up? Why didn't Kalas win it if he was the better defender as you say, or another player?

Well first of all Kalas didn't play throughout the whole season. He got injured around January IIRC then replaced by Odoi. But also because Kalas was a good signing from day 1. Whereas Ream was woeful initially then came good. So it was more like a "most improved player" vote that year. 

Why wasn't Mawson starting over Ream this season when he was fit if he's so much better?

I don't believe there was a sustained period this season where Mawson was fit and not starting. 

Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

[Statto]

Mawson was fit for the 12 critical post Lockdown matches but never got a look in.

He had knee surgery earlier this year.

First 4 matches after the lockdown, he wasn't in the squad, presumably because he was still recovering. So clearly not "fit" at all.

Thereafter, he was on the bench but would clearly have been lacking sharpness. Again, almost certainly not "fit".

If Parker had Virgil Van Dijk on the bench in those circumstances, it would have been mad to bring him in just for the run-in/play-offs when we were playing well and he hadn't started since for over six months.

And on another thread, an ITK poster has said there are other issues in play as well.