So if you read my "hello" post you might remember that I'm new to football at any level and as such, I have a litany of stupid questions. I've decided to post them in this part of the board as I didn't want to clutter the main board with my drivel.
Question 1: The FA cup. Is it a separate process completely from the Premier League? Do FA cup games count in Premier League standings?
Question 2: Why does everyone call West Ham cheaters?
Question 3: Is there any sort of collective bargaining in the EPL. What major US sports league would you associate the business model of the EPL with the most closely?
Question 4: So the EPL gets 4 automatic berths into the UEFA Champions League. What other leagues get automatic berths, is it 4 teams per league for every league, and are there any at-large entries?
That's all for now, I'm sure I'll come up with others.
If I may start..."there are no Dumb Questions"
As someone on this board once said it best, "We all have to start somewhere."
1. FA Cup – yes, completely different competition from PL. One of the interesting tidbits of the FA Cup – it's the oldest association football competition in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup) - this link can explain it much better than I could. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_League_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_League_Cup)
2. West Ham – Approx. 4-5 seasons ago, Tevez almost single-handedly kept "the Cheats" up despite the possibility of him being ineligible to play for them.
Look for a post from HatterDon to elaborate on this. FatFred may chime in on this too but probably not as eloquently as HD.
3. Great Question – Way beyond my expertise though. Could someone help us out on this one?
4. Qualifier: I don't keep up with the CL that much (Fulham isn't in it). I know PL gets 4 auto-berths. Other Leagues do too; Italian? German? & Spanish? It is not 4 per League; the Scottish League gets one or two – the Dutch League gets one or two. Not sure if there are at-large.
Although incomplete, this should get you started. It's good of you to ask – there may be others who are unsure too.
Regarding question 4, here's a good link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html)
England, Spain, and Germany will get 4 CL places and 3 Europa next season due to their country ranking. Lower ranked countries get fewer places, with very small countries only getting Europa league places. (Germany replaced Italy as the third-ranked country this season.)
Regarding question 3:
The short answer is no. We have a very weak union (PFA) that doesn't have any real say in anything.
There is as far as I am concerned no comparison to the US at all.
Quote from: Steve_orino on May 16, 2011, 05:14:04 PM
If I may start..."there are no Dumb Questions"
As someone on this board once said it best, "We all have to start somewhere."
1. FA Cup – yes, completely different competition from PL. One of the interesting tidbits of the FA Cup – it's the oldest association football competition in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup) - this link can explain it much better than I could. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_League_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_League_Cup)
Thanks. That explains it pretty well.
Quote from: Steve_orino on May 16, 2011, 05:14:04 PM
2. West Ham – Approx. 4-5 seasons ago, Tevez almost single-handedly kept "the Cheats" up despite the possibility of him being ineligible to play for them.
Look for a post from HatterDon to elaborate on this. FatFred may chime in on this too but probably not as eloquently as HD.
Can't find the HD post. Anybody have a link?
Quote from: MikeR on May 16, 2011, 05:21:36 PM
Regarding question 4, here's a good link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html)
England, Spain, and Germany will get 4 CL places and 3 Europa next season due to their country ranking. Lower ranked countries get fewer places, with very small countries only getting Europa league places. (Germany replaced Italy as the third-ranked country this season.)
Thanks. That site is helpful.
Quote from: finnster01 on May 16, 2011, 05:49:32 PM
Regarding question 3:
The short answer is no. We have a very weak union (PFA) that doesn't have any real say in anything.
There is as far as I am concerned no comparison to the US at all.
So is there a salary cap of any sort? How about a draft process or free agency? I guess with so many leagues over so many countries it would be impossible to standardize.
Quote from: Neophyte on May 16, 2011, 06:06:27 PM
Quote from: finnster01 on May 16, 2011, 05:49:32 PM
Regarding question 3:
The short answer is no. We have a very weak union (PFA) that doesn't have any real say in anything.
There is as far as I am concerned no comparison to the US at all.
So is there a salary cap of any sort? How about a draft process or free agency? I guess with so many leagues over so many countries it would be impossible to standardize.
The answer is no to all of the above. The only thing we have close to free agency is a "bosman" which means that a player is free to go anywhere he wants when his contract is up.
Quote from: Neophyte on May 16, 2011, 06:06:27 PM
Quote from: finnster01 on May 16, 2011, 05:49:32 PM
Regarding question 3:
The short answer is no. We have a very weak union (PFA) that doesn't have any real say in anything.
There is as far as I am concerned no comparison to the US at all.
So is there a salary cap of any sort? How about a draft process or free agency? I guess with so many leagues over so many countries it would be impossible to standardize.
There is no salary cap.
Player movement - Best thing I can compare it to is the NFL Draft
but not the actual draft itself but the
time after.
At the end of the NFL Draft teams can sign any players they want to contracts...and that's how it is with football (soccer) except remember, there is no 7 round draft prior. So clubs dole out top money for the top players. If a player is on a team, say Torres was at Liverpool and Chelsea fancy him, then they'll agree to a 'transfer' and Chelsea pays 50 million pounds (80 million dollars) for the rights to Torres (that happened this past transfer season).
There are two transfer periods, time when players can move teams, during the summer & the month of January.
Hi Neophyte!!!
I can't remember the legendary HD post, although West Ham are called cheats for more than just the Tevez/Mascherano affair [players signed illegally that kept West Ham from being relegated]. The Premier League and the FA refused to deduct points "because it would be unfair to West Ham's supporters."
Add to that: A recent West Ham v. Millwall [London's most deadly rivalry -- literally] League Cup match featured several pitch invastions at West Ham's ground, plus violence within the ground and in the streets surrounding Upton Park. A Millwall fan was stabbed to death. Despite explicit rules outlining repercussions for the hosting club's inability to maintain order during a cup tie, West Ham were neither eliminated from the competition nor sentenced to having to play the next round in an empty stadium.
As Mr. Finnster, Mr. Fat Freddy's Cat, and other wonderful Brits who grace these "expat" threads will tell you, much of West Ham's ability to escape punishment is down to the importance and influence of one Sir Trevor Brooking -- once a quite brilliant creative midfielder for West Ham, now a high muckety muck in British football.
Regarding some other of your questions:
English football's "reserve clause" pretty much was killed by Fulham legends Johnny Haynes and Jimmy Hill. Players suffered under a maximum wage for a century, and had little say in where they played and for how long. If Haynes and Hill were the collective "left hook" to club owner's complete dominance of the player's contract, the "right cross" was certainly English law having to conform to EU regulations in terms of freedom of contract and movement. As a side issue to this, you'll see reference to "a Bosman" quite a bit during the summer transfer season. A Bosman Transfer is essentially a free transfer -- much like an American club granting a player free agency. The Bosman benefits the signing club by negating a transfer fee, and benefits the player by allowing him to get a somewhat higher salary than he might get if a fee was involved in the transfer. Unlike American sports where a free agency/release indicates that the releasing club has little or no respect for the player, when a club allows a player to leave on a "Bosman," it often shows that the releasing club wants the player to leave on terms most beneficial to him.
Related to this is a player who is going to leave a club, signing a contract before the transfer specifically to guarantee his old club a transfer free. This is what Brian McBride did for Columbus Crew prior to his transfer to Fulham, and what Van der Sar did for Fulham prior to his leaving for Manchester United.
Hope some of this helps. As RidgeRider, SteveOrino, and others -- including me -- will tell you, any request for information you make on this site will be treated with respect and patience. Fulham are a welcoming club, and -- despite the good-natured digs -- the London-based supporters love to see folks all round the world supporting and respecting their team.
Quote from: HatterDon on May 17, 2011, 05:33:54 AM
Hi Neophyte!!!
I can't remember the legendary HD post, although West Ham are called cheats for more than just the Tevez/Mascherano affair [players signed illegally that kept West Ham from being relegated]. The Premier League and the FA refused to deduct points "because it would be unfair to West Ham's supporters."
Add to that: A recent West Ham v. Millwall [London's most deadly rivalry -- literally] League Cup match featured several pitch invastions at West Ham's ground, plus violence within the ground and in the streets surrounding Upton Park. A Millwall fan was stabbed to death. Despite explicit rules outlining repercussions for the hosting club's inability to maintain order during a cup tie, West Ham were neither eliminated from the competition nor sentenced to having to play the next round in an empty stadium.
As Mr. Finnster, Mr. Fat Freddy's Cat, and other wonderful Brits who grace these "expat" threads will tell you, much of West Ham's ability to escape punishment is down to the importance and influence of one Sir Trevor Brooking -- once a quite brilliant creative midfielder for West Ham, now a high muckety muck in British football.
Regarding some other of your questions:
English football's "reserve clause" pretty much was killed by Fulham legends Johnny Haynes and Jimmy Hill. Players suffered under a maximum wage for a century, and had little say in where they played and for how long. If Haynes and Hill were the collective "left hook" to club owner's complete dominance of the player's contract, the "right cross" was certainly English law having to conform to EU regulations in terms of freedom of contract and movement. As a side issue to this, you'll see reference to "a Bosman" quite a bit during the summer transfer season. A Bosman Transfer is essentially a free transfer -- much like an American club granting a player free agency. The Bosman benefits the signing club by negating a transfer fee, and benefits the player by allowing him to get a somewhat higher salary than he might get if a fee was involved in the transfer. Unlike American sports where a free agency/release indicates that the releasing club has little or no respect for the player, when a club allows a player to leave on a "Bosman," it often shows that the releasing club wants the player to leave on terms most beneficial to him.
Related to this is a player who is going to leave a club, signing a contract before the transfer specifically to guarantee his old club a transfer free. This is what Brian McBride did for Columbus Crew prior to his transfer to Fulham, and what Van der Sar did for Fulham prior to his leaving for Manchester United.
Hope some of this helps. As RidgeRider, SteveOrino, and others -- including me -- will tell you, any request for information you make on this site will be treated with respect and patience. Fulham are a welcoming club, and -- despite the good-natured digs -- the London-based supporters love to see folks all round the world supporting and respecting their team.
This is the post I was referencing! :HD: :drums: :HD:
This thread is exactly why this board is a billion times better than the official club forum. Until I discovered FoF, I just about lost faith that it was even worth it for me to attend a match because I'd be heckled out of the stadium lol
Anyway here's my dumb question...
I'm a little confused by the "fair play table". What is the point and how long has it been around? I think I get that it keeps track of yellow and red cards and the less you get the better you rank but that's about all i know. Also, how does it relate to the Europa league? I know there's talk of us getting in by winning that table (until this past match at least)
Quote from: Mr. F on May 18, 2011, 01:42:24 AM
I'm a little confused by the "fair play table". What is the point and how long has it been around? I think I get that it keeps track of yellow and red cards and the less you get the better you rank but that's about all i know. Also, how does it relate to the Europa league? I know there's talk of us getting in by winning that table (until this past match at least)
Regarding the point and origin of "fair play", here's FIFA's take, for what it's worth: http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/fifacampaigns/fairplay/index.html (http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/fifacampaigns/fairplay/index.html)
There's more to the table than just reds and yellows. Playing to score and win rather than to defend and draw, respect for the opponent and referee, behavior of team officials, behavior of fans, etc. go into the UEFA ranking. England doesn't include the fan's behavior in their domestic fair play ranking, though.
The Europa league awards three spots in the 1st qualifying round to the three European domestic leagues highest ranked in the UEFA fair play table (assuming enough games are played). Each league then sends their highest fair play ranked team from their top flight that didn't otherwise qualify for Europa or CL and does qualify for European competitions (UEFA license, etc.). It's a bit of a white elephant, though, since the 1st qualifying round begins in June. Thus the recent debate around here, as well as some circumstantial evidence that FFC is actively trying to avoid this "award."
Quote from: MikeR on May 18, 2011, 04:16:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. F on May 18, 2011, 01:42:24 AM
I'm a little confused by the "fair play table". What is the point and how long has it been around? I think I get that it keeps track of yellow and red cards and the less you get the better you rank but that's about all i know. Also, how does it relate to the Europa league? I know there's talk of us getting in by winning that table (until this past match at least)
Regarding the point and origin of "fair play", here's FIFA's take, for what it's worth: http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/fifacampaigns/fairplay/index.html (http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/fifacampaigns/fairplay/index.html)
There's more to the table than just reds and yellows. Playing to score and win rather than to defend and draw, respect for the opponent and referee, behavior of team officials, behavior of fans, etc. go into the UEFA ranking. England doesn't include the fan's behavior in their domestic fair play ranking, though.
The Europa league awards three spots in the 1st qualifying round to the three European domestic leagues highest ranked in the UEFA fair play table (assuming enough games are played). Each league then sends their highest fair play ranked team from their top flight that didn't otherwise qualify for Europa or CL and does qualify for European competitions (UEFA license, etc.). It's a bit of a white elephant, though, since the 1st qualifying round begins in June. Thus the recent debate around here, as well as some circumstantial evidence that FFC is actively trying to avoid this "award."
Interesting, thanks for clearing that up.
Yea, June doesn't leave much room for rest after a long season. While I'd love to see them go on another Europa run, I imagine they benefit next season by a longer rest.
DQ: What are the roster size rules? Can you just sign as many players as you can afford. I've seen a million sign this guy posts on here and no cooresponding roster moves noted.
Really DQ: Roster isn't the right term is it?
Quote from: Neophyte on May 19, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
DQ: What are the roster size rules? Can you just sign as many players as you can afford. I've seen a million sign this guy posts on here and no cooresponding roster moves noted.
Really DQ: Roster isn't the right term is it?
Squad is the term you're looking for.
The squad is limited to
25 players but players who are under 21 or "home grown" (basically meaning British) don't count so you can have as many of these as you want.
Here's our squad (as submitted to the FA in the summer, it has changed slightly in the winter transfer window):
Fulham – 25 squad players (YES or NO refers to their homegrown status).
1. Schwarzer, Mark NO, 2. Stockdale, David Adam YES, 3. Pantsil, John NO, 4. Stoor, Frederick NO, 5. Kelly, Stephen Michael YES, 6. Gera, Zoltan NO, 7. Dempsey, Clinton Drew NO, 8. Raise, Bjorn Helge Semundseth NO, 9. Hughes, Aaron William YES, 10. Baird, Christopher YES, 11. Halliche, Rafik NO, 12. Etuhu, Dickson Paul YES, 13. Dikgacoi, Kagisho NO, 14. Johnson, Andrew YES, 15. Kamara, Diomansy NO, 16. Dembele, Moussa NO, 17. Hangeland, Brede Paulsen NO, 18. Murphy, Daniel Ben YES, 19. Greening, Jonathan YES, 20. Zamora, Robert Lester YES, 21. Elm, David NO, 22. Johnson, Edward NO, 23. Salcido Flores, Carlos Arnoldo NO, 24. Davies, Simon YES, 25. Duff, Damien Anthony YES,
Quote from: ImperialWhite on May 19, 2011, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: Neophyte on May 19, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
DQ: What are the roster size rules? Can you just sign as many players as you can afford. I've seen a million sign this guy posts on here and no cooresponding roster moves noted.
Really DQ: Roster isn't the right term is it?
Squad is the term you're looking for.
The squad is limited to 25 players but players who are under 21 or "home grown" (basically meaning British) don't count so you can have as many of these as you want.
Here's our squad (as submitted to the FA in the summer, it has changed slightly in the winter transfer window):
Fulham 25 squad players (YES or NO refers to their homegrown status).
1. Schwarzer, Mark NO, 2. Stockdale, David Adam YES, 3. Pantsil, John NO, 4. Stoor, Frederick NO, 5. Kelly, Stephen Michael YES, 6. Gera, Zoltan NO, 7. Dempsey, Clinton Drew NO, 8. Raise, Bjorn Helge Semundseth NO, 9. Hughes, Aaron William YES, 10. Baird, Christopher YES, 11. Halliche, Rafik NO, 12. Etuhu, Dickson Paul YES, 13. Dikgacoi, Kagisho NO, 14. Johnson, Andrew YES, 15. Kamara, Diomansy NO, 16. Dembele, Moussa NO, 17. Hangeland, Brede Paulsen NO, 18. Murphy, Daniel Ben YES, 19. Greening, Jonathan YES, 20. Zamora, Robert Lester YES, 21. Elm, David NO, 22. Johnson, Edward NO, 23. Salcido Flores, Carlos Arnoldo NO, 24. Davies, Simon YES, 25. Duff, Damien Anthony YES,
Thanks. For clarification, do you have to announce your 25, or can you bring any 25 to a match?
Another one: Do teams have separate GMs that are responsible for personnel moves? From what I'm gathering, there doesn't seem to be a separation between head coach/GM. Do any teams do it that way?
Also: Is there a football version of sabermetrics? For those of you unfamiliar, sabermetrics is basically the statistical study of baseball. Sites designed to track attributes of players and used by the more savvy GMs to help make decisions.
1. You have to register the 25 at the end of both transfer windows (so the end of August and the end of January).
2. Good question - depends on the club. A few clubs have people responsible soley for player purchases (e.g. Liverpool have a "director of football" - Damien Comolli who is responsible for player transfers). Usually, however, it's the manager/coach.
3. Not really - much harder to do for football. If you're interested in the technical side of sports though, I'd recommend:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/ (http://www.zonalmarking.net/)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305830233&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305830233&sr=1-1)
http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/ (http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/)
(Jonathan Wilson's book especially is very interesting and very well written and will give you a lot of background on the development of football and how it is played)
Quote from: Neophyte on May 19, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
Another one: Do teams have separate GMs that are responsible for personnel moves? From what I'm gathering, there doesn't seem to be a separation between head coach/GM. Do any teams do it that way?
Also: Is there a football version of sabermetrics? For those of you unfamiliar, sabermetrics is basically the statistical study of baseball. Sites designed to track attributes of players and used by the more savvy GMs to help make decisions.
Actually, there are tonnes of statistical software packages used by directors of football or managers to trace all aspects of players and match analysis. In fact Man Utd and Sir Alex are some of the biggest users and proponents of those kind of systems
Quote from: finnster01 on May 20, 2011, 08:54:23 PM
Quote from: Neophyte on May 19, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
Another one: Do teams have separate GMs that are responsible for personnel moves? From what I'm gathering, there doesn't seem to be a separation between head coach/GM. Do any teams do it that way?
Also: Is there a football version of sabermetrics? For those of you unfamiliar, sabermetrics is basically the statistical study of baseball. Sites designed to track attributes of players and used by the more savvy GMs to help make decisions.
Actually, there are tonnes of statistical software packages used by directors of football or managers to trace all aspects of players and match analysis. In fact Man Utd and Sir Alex are some of the biggest users and proponents of those kind of systems
Are they public? It would be interesting to see what kind of metrics are used. It's also valuable ammo to have in a debate on player ability.
Quote from: Neophyte on May 20, 2011, 09:02:57 PM
Quote from: finnster01 on May 20, 2011, 08:54:23 PM
Quote from: Neophyte on May 19, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
Another one: Do teams have separate GMs that are responsible for personnel moves? From what I'm gathering, there doesn't seem to be a separation between head coach/GM. Do any teams do it that way?
Also: Is there a football version of sabermetrics? For those of you unfamiliar, sabermetrics is basically the statistical study of baseball. Sites designed to track attributes of players and used by the more savvy GMs to help make decisions.
Actually, there are tonnes of statistical software packages used by directors of football or managers to trace all aspects of players and match analysis. In fact Man Utd and Sir Alex are some of the biggest users and proponents of those kind of systems
Are they public? It would be interesting to see what kind of metrics are used. It's also valuable ammo to have in a debate on player ability.
They come in all sizes and forms, including expense. Some any team can use, some are developed in conjunction with clubs like Man U (so they are probably a couple of versions ahead of the customers using the same solutions etc.)
Just google around and you;ll come across quite a few number of players in the market to get an idea of degree of sophistication and what they offer
Interesting article regarding statistical analysis in soccer http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/can-statistics-explain-soccer-363/tab/article/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/can-statistics-explain-soccer-363/tab/article/)
Wow! I go away for three weeks and come back to Football 101. When I came aboard, there was nothing. The ridicule from the knowledgeable locals & the sharp words when I was in error scared me for life. I still shrink from many comments remembering Fat Fred and his bull whip....the welds have only recently subsided. :airfix:
Quote from: HatterDon on May 17, 2011, 05:33:54 AM
Hi Neophyte!!!
I can't remember the legendary HD post, although West Ham are called cheats for more than just the Tevez/Mascherano affair [players signed illegally that kept West Ham from being relegated]. The Premier League and the FA refused to deduct points "because it would be unfair to West Ham's supporters."
Add to that: A recent West Ham v. Millwall [London's most deadly rivalry -- literally] League Cup match featured several pitch invastions at West Ham's ground, plus violence within the ground and in the streets surrounding Upton Park. A Millwall fan was stabbed to death. Despite explicit rules outlining repercussions for the hosting club's inability to maintain order during a cup tie, West Ham were neither eliminated from the competition nor sentenced to having to play the next round in an empty stadium.
As Mr. Finnster, Mr. Fat Freddy's Cat, and other wonderful Brits who grace these "expat" threads will tell you, much of West Ham's ability to escape punishment is down to the importance and influence of one Sir Trevor Brooking -- once a quite brilliant creative midfielder for West Ham, now a high muckety muck in British football.
THAT is a great answer HD.
I would only add that Sheffield United sued West Ham over the affair, and an FA arbitration panel's opinion was that they agreed with Sheffield that West Ham DID 'cheat' the system (playing Tevez who was 'technically' unregistered), and awarded Sheffield compensation for the amount of monies Sheffield claimed in lost earnings due to being relegated in West Hams place. This was later agreed at 10 Mil settlement. Thus West Ham were found 'guilty' of breaking rules, gaining an unfair advantage and staying in the Prem solely due to those two matters. Thus, they are referred to as The Cheats.
The following links might bring further information:
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/4981170/West-Ham-and-Sheffield-United-reach-out-of-court-settlement-over-Carlos-Tevez-affair.html)
bbc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7630777.stm)
Quote from: YankeeJim on May 31, 2011, 08:36:07 PM
Wow! I go away for three weeks and come back to Football 101. When I came aboard, there was nothing. The ridicule from the knowledgeable locals & the sharp words when I was in error scared me for life. I still shrink from many comments remembering Fat Fred and his bull whip....the welds have only recently subsided. :airfix:
Oh, come on Jim. You know you enjoyed it really :003:
Just a thought, after the loss to mighty Panama, would it be ok for me to get Bob Bradley to take this course in Football 101?
