From Twitter this morning:
talkSPORTDrive talkSPORTDrive
Ed Warner UK Athletics chiarman says he wouldn't be surprised if WHU take up tenancy of Olympic Stadium. WHUFC surely too big to be tenants?
The main point in this tweet is the last sentance 'Surely WHUFC are too big to be tenants' , this has got me thinking, are 087.gif a big club anymore?
I may be being cynical here, but I don't think WHU are 'big' anymore.
Two or three reasons got me thinking this:
1. The club are in the Championship, now this is no dicredit to the league itself but can a 'Big' club participate in such a league? The seasons when they have been in the Premiership they have survived by the skin of their teeth.
2. Financially, the club are a mess, yes, in the off season they showed their financial muscle against the likes of Bristol City and Peterborough, but in a PL season could they attract the likes of Riise, Ruiz or even to an extent the players that NUFC or even WWFC have bought in (Roger Johnson)?
3. The stadium mess, everyone knows about this and with the deal collapsing, does that mean something really isn't right at WHUFC.
I know, like all of you that WHU have a massive history & fan base, which I can more than appreciate, but I am thinking modern day and achievements on the pitch, are they still big?
Maybe I am being cynical, but I would like to know what you guys thought too.
I think they are still a big club - most of which is defined by their fan base.
They still are THE club in east London, which is a huge catchment area that goes out to essex. No other club in the area really come that close.
Financial mismanagement has scuppered them in recent years, but they generally will always be a top tier team
Leeds are a big club, how long since the've been in the Premiership?
Yes.
And a necessary evil to ensure keeping the Cottage a wide-boys free zone. :005:
Quote from: WhiteJC on October 11, 2011, 09:54:49 AM
Leeds are a big club, how long since the've been in the Premiership?
Yes, actually, thinking about it now the amount of 'fallen giants' in football is actually quite deastating. Sheff Weds too.
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
Preston
Sunderland
Villa
Possibly Newcastle
Huddersfield
Possibly Everton
Arsenal
Spurs
Wolves
Spurs
United
Leeds
Forest
Liverpool
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
United
Arsenal
Chelsea
And now City
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
Preston
Sunderland
Villa
Possibly Newcastle
Huddersfield
Possibly Everton
Arsenal
Spurs
Wolves
Spurs
United
Leeds
Forest
Liverpool
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
United
Arsenal
Chelsea
And now City
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
Preston
Sunderland
Villa
Possibly Newcastle
Huddersfield
Possibly Everton
Arsenal
Spurs
Wolves
Spurs
United
Leeds
Forest
Liverpool
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
United
Arsenal
Chelsea
And now City
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
Preston
Sunderland
Villa
Possibly Newcastle
Huddersfield
Possibly Everton
Arsenal
Spurs
Wolves
Spurs
United
Leeds
Forest
Liverpool
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
United
Arsenal
Chelsea
And now City
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
But two European Cups is two European cups. That's twice the number achieved by all of the French clubs, ever.
If you've ever won anything, you're a big club, in my opinion - because most clubs have never won anything (non-top flight division title wins not included, of course).
Just to go off on a slight tangent on this debate, I don't think its a criterion of a large club to own its own stadium. Practically no top division club in France owns its stadium and I think that's the case in a number of countries.
As financial stability becomes more of an issue in the coming years, I think we will see more Premiership clubs selling off their stadium and then leasing it back in order to decrease their level of debt. The risk of other development of the site can be avoided with a long-term lease. Clubs will focus on their core business of trying to make money from football.
Who knows, this may also extend to the revolutionary idea of clubs not owning players in the future and only leasing them for a couple of seasons ?
How will you define a big club in the future? One who wins trophies regularly and has a large turnover.
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
But two European Cups is two European cups. That's twice the number achieved by all of the French clubs, ever.
If you've ever won anything, you're a big club, in my opinion - because most clubs have never won anything (non-top flight division title wins not included, of course).
Marseille won the European cup (Champions League) in 1993. Sorry, I am a L'OM follower too.
But I agree with your second point to an extent, obviously having a legacy i.e Liverpool or United helps greatly in determine a big club.
yeah but Marseille did cheat to get there by bribing officials and players. "Allez Lyon".
Mind you, I was at that game where it allegedly took place (Valenciennes v Marseille) and I didn't spot anything. I thought Valenciennes were just crap.
exactly. I wouldn't include Forest in a shorter list of the game's really great teams but in terms of England's 'big clubs' they certainly have a claim based on the aforementioned European Cups. West Ham? What's the story? What makes them a big club? (Apart from beating us in the FA Cup Final, obviously.)
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
But two European Cups is two European cups. That's twice the number achieved by all of the French clubs, ever.
If you've ever won anything, you're a big club, in my opinion - because most clubs have never won anything (non-top flight division title wins not included, of course).
I cant agree with that. Are portsmouth a big club for buying their way to an FA cup? Would we suddenly be a big club if we had won the Europa league? No.
Quote from: FC Silver Fox on October 11, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
yeah but Marseille did cheat to get there by bribing officials and players. "Allez Lyon".
Mind you, I was at that game where it allegedly took place (Valenciennes v Marseille) and I didn't spot anything. I thought Valenciennes were just crap.
OL - booooo! Allez Les Verts!
The OM saga never made sense to me. If you're good enough to get to a European Cup final, you're good enough to win a league. Why bother match fixing? (assuming, as you say, that they won it fairly - which one assumes they did since UEFA presumably looked into it pretty carefully given the goings on in Ligue 1).
QuoteMarseille won the European cup (Champions League) in 1993. Sorry, I am a L'OM follower too.
Exactement! That's why I said Forest have achieved twice as much as France (two European Cups to OM's one).
That said, France really does have a terrible return on the number of finals it's clubs have been in - six finals, only one winner.
If you were selecting a Premier League of 20 clubs based upon history and fan base West Ham would probably just make the cut whereas we wouldn't.
They're big but not that big. If ManU are 6ft 4" they're about 5ft 10".
Quote from: TonyGilroy on October 11, 2011, 11:17:51 AM
If you were selecting a Premier League of 20 clubs based upon history and fan base West Ham would probably just make the cut whereas we wouldn't.
They're big but not that big. If ManU are 6ft 4" they're about 5ft 10".
Would that make us an Andy Johnsonesque 5' 7"?
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
But two European Cups is two European cups. That's twice the number achieved by all of the French clubs, ever.
If you've ever won anything, you're a big club, in my opinion - because most clubs have never won anything (non-top flight division title wins not included, of course).
I cant agree with that. Are portsmouth a big club for buying their way to an FA cup? Would we suddenly be a big club if we had won the Europa league? No.
On a grander scale, yes, I think we are big clubs. There are big clubs and "big clubs" - only clubs like Real Madrid, Milan, Manchester United etc fit into that lofty latter category - but not being a footballing giant doesn't mean you're not a big club.
Portsmouth, and us had we won the Europa (or even just by reaching a final) are massive clubs compared to (say) Hereford United, Bath City, Oxford City, Crawley Town, Stockport County and the like.
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 11:24:04 AM
On a grander scale, yes, I think we are big clubs. There are big clubs and "big clubs" - only clubs like Real Madrid, Milan, Manchester United etc fit into that lofty latter category - but not being a footballing giant doesn't mean you're not a big club.
Portsmouth, and us had we won the Europa (or even just by reaching a final) are massive clubs compared to (say) Hereford United, Bath City, Oxford City, Crawley Town, Stockport County and the like.
Definitive list of big clubs would be:
England:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Scotland:
Rangers
Celtic
Italy:
Juventus
Ac Milan
Inter Milan
Spain:
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Germany:
Bayern Munich
I see that Tony G has alluded to this, but every post mentions 'big club', though there is a lack of definition here.
What makes a big club? History? What kind of history? League, cup, fanbase, time in league, big named players?
I would have to ask, what distinctly makes the Spammers a bigger club than us then?
Quote from: FC Silver Fox on October 11, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
yeah but Marseille did cheat to get there by bribing officials and players. "Allez Lyon".
Mind you, I was at that game where it allegedly took place (Valenciennes v Marseille) and I didn't spot anything. I thought Valenciennes were just crap.
Indeed, they did cheat their way to the title, but it still counts haha.
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 11:24:04 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on October 11, 2011, 10:54:17 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Not sure where West Ham's claim to be a big club comes from.
The league's really good teams:
West Ham have the whole 1966 thing going on, I appreciate, but haven't made a dent in the game's history really. Any of the above can legitimately claim to have been a big club, but West Ham? Not sure about that.
Not sure I would agree about Nottingham Forest:
http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/ (http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/10/10/steve-mcclaren-nottingham-forest-forestiti/)
Clough Era I'm guessing.
That was an amazing era, but they won two consecutive european cups and a league cup. Since then? Bupkiss. They used to be a provincial team, and they are one again now.
But two European Cups is two European cups. That's twice the number achieved by all of the French clubs, ever.
If you've ever won anything, you're a big club, in my opinion - because most clubs have never won anything (non-top flight division title wins not included, of course).
I cant agree with that. Are portsmouth a big club for buying their way to an FA cup? Would we suddenly be a big club if we had won the Europa league? No.
On a grander scale, yes, I think we are big clubs. There are big clubs and "big clubs" - only clubs like Real Madrid, Milan, Manchester United etc fit into that lofty latter category - but not being a footballing giant doesn't mean you're not a big club.
Portsmouth, and us had we won the Europa (or even just by reaching a final) are massive clubs compared to (say) Hereford United, Bath City, Oxford City, Crawley Town, Stockport County and the like.
There is a definitive difference between 'Elite' clubs like Madrid, Barcelona and Milan compared to big clubs that there are in every country, for instance the 'Elite' Bayen vs the 'Big' Borussia Dortmund.
What does BIG mean?
Size.
Specifically a large fan base.
Either real, because you are in the premier league and filling your stadium every week.
Or potential, because like Leeds, Sheff Wed etc. you have a large stadium but don't fill it every week by virtue of not being in the top flight.
Success doesn't really come in to it. I never viewed Wimbledon as a big club, even though they won the FA Cup.
It just so happens that for the most part, the bigger clubs tend to win the honours.
Any club with Shefki Kuqi in it is a big club.
In other words Oldham is a big club.
Quote from: finnster01 on October 11, 2011, 02:25:21 PM
Any club with Shefki Kuqi in it is a big club.
In other words Oldham is a big club.
:011:
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:18:33 PM
What does BIG mean?
Size.
Specifically a large fan base.
Either real, because you are in the premier league and filling your stadium every week.
Or potential, because like Leeds, Sheff Wed etc. you have a large stadium but don't fill it every week by virtue of not being in the top flight.
Success doesn't really come in to it. I never viewed Wimbledon as a big club, even though they won the FA Cup.
It just so happens that for the most part, the bigger clubs tend to win the honours.
I'd agree with this Mr Burt on the most part.
Would you still consider a team like Leeds a big club considering their recent successes?
Size is a factor too you are right, but Darlington have a massive ground (for their stature) and they are not neccessarily big at all.
But then there is the gap between the big clubs who will win a trophy every so often i.e Borussia and then Bayern, who win one every year.
But I still don't see what West Ham have that makes them a big club. Their fans aren't that numerous, they are, more or less, a yo-yo club, and haven't won anything notable.
My arbitrary list of big clubs:
Manchester United
Liverpool
/\
distance
\/
Arsenal
/\
small distance
\/
Leeds
Villa
Everton
Chelsea
Sunderland
Newcastle
Wolves
City
Spurs
/\
distance
\/
Forest
West Ham
Birmingham
Fulham
Blackburn
etc
to me it's a combination of past achievement and future potential. If I were an oil baron who would I buy? Leeds. Other considerations would be Wednesday, Huddersfield, Preston and perhaps a south coast team to monopolise that end.
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:18:33 PM
What does BIG mean?
Size.
Specifically a large fan base.
Either real, because you are in the premier league and filling your stadium every week.
Or potential, because like Leeds, Sheff Wed etc. you have a large stadium but don't fill it every week by virtue of not being in the top flight.
Success doesn't really come in to it. I never viewed Wimbledon as a big club, even though they won the FA Cup.
It just so happens that for the most part, the bigger clubs tend to win the honours.
I'd agree with this Mr Burt on the most part.
Would you still consider a team like Leeds a big club considering their recent successes?
Size is a factor too you are right, but Darlington have a massive ground (for their stature) and they are not neccessarily big at all.
But then there is the gap between the big clubs who will win a trophy every so often i.e Borussia and then Bayern, who win one every year.
I did specifically say fan base rather than size of ground. I specifically had Darlo in mind, whose 25,000 stadium is a folly to George Reynolds, the owner at the time, rather than a reflection of the (small) fan base they actually have.
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 02:35:24 PM
to me it's a combination of past achievement and future potential. If I were an oil baron who would I buy? Leeds. Other considerations would be Wednesday, Huddersfield, Preston and perhaps a south coast team to monopolise that end.
The ideal investment is a club with a wide net of potential support and little competition for that support. Cities with one or two clubs would be ideal. So Leeds, either Sheff Wed or Utd, Derby Country, and potentially Forest would fit that bill.
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on October 11, 2011, 11:19:48 AM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on October 11, 2011, 11:17:51 AM
If you were selecting a Premier League of 20 clubs based upon history and fan base West Ham would probably just make the cut whereas we wouldn't.
They're big but not that big. If ManU are 6ft 4" they're about 5ft 10".
Would that make us an Andy Johnsonesque 5' 7"?
No, more like a Toyahesque 4' 11".
Haven't got time to read the whole thing but I'd say they're a big club - of course the age-old dilamma of what to base it on applies but even if they weren't promoted back to the Prem for 10 years, you'd still see lots of their shirts. Bigger than us? Yep, by plenty.
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:38:24 PM
Quote from: ClarksOriginal on October 11, 2011, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:18:33 PM
What does BIG mean?
Size.
Specifically a large fan base.
Either real, because you are in the premier league and filling your stadium every week.
Or potential, because like Leeds, Sheff Wed etc. you have a large stadium but don't fill it every week by virtue of not being in the top flight.
Success doesn't really come in to it. I never viewed Wimbledon as a big club, even though they won the FA Cup.
It just so happens that for the most part, the bigger clubs tend to win the honours.
I'd agree with this Mr Burt on the most part.
Would you still consider a team like Leeds a big club considering their recent successes?
Size is a factor too you are right, but Darlington have a massive ground (for their stature) and they are not neccessarily big at all.
But then there is the gap between the big clubs who will win a trophy every so often i.e Borussia and then Bayern, who win one every year.
I did specifically say fan base rather than size of ground. I specifically had Darlo in mind, whose 25,000 stadium is a folly to George Reynolds, the owner at the time, rather than a reflection of the (small) fan base they actually have.
I must have mis-read, sorry.
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:41:01 PM
Quote from: richie17 on October 11, 2011, 02:35:24 PM
to me it's a combination of past achievement and future potential. If I were an oil baron who would I buy? Leeds. Other considerations would be Wednesday, Huddersfield, Preston and perhaps a south coast team to monopolise that end.
The ideal investment is a club with a wide net of potential support and little competition for that support. Cities with one or two clubs would be ideal. So Leeds, either Sheff Wed or Utd, Derby Country, and potentially Forest would fit that bill.
Wednesday are a big club, maybe not as big as they used to be but they definitely are up there in a 'top 20'. They pretty much without fail sell out all their away allocations and could easily fill a Wembley or Cardiff allocation. United aren't a big club and with the exception of Oldham away this season, hardly travel in comparison.
Quote from: Burt on October 11, 2011, 02:18:33 PM
What does BIG mean?
Size.
Specifically a large fan base.
Either real, because you are in the premier league and filling your stadium every week.
Or potential, because like Leeds, Sheff Wed etc. you have a large stadium but don't fill it every week by virtue of not being in the top flight.
Success doesn't really come in to it. I never viewed Wimbledon as a big club, even though they won the FA Cup.
It just so happens that for the most part, the bigger clubs tend to win the honours.
I see the point you are making Burt. WHU have enjoyed average home gates of 33K for the past two seasons, with a capacity of 35K.
Would that then mean if CC capacity was increased to, say, 35K, and we then enjoyed crowds of 33K on average, that we could be considered a 'big' club alongside WHU?
yes, they are a big club. They're also a horrid lot of cheats owned by pornographers.
'Big Club' falls into that subjective category that is shared with the likes of 'world-class' & 'Prem quality'. Any team that yo-yos like they have isn't by my personal definition a 'Big Club'.
For me WHU are a medium club. Big clubs are Man U, Arsenal, Man C, Spuds, Liverpool and others with a big fan base, a history of winning both domestically and in Europe and who can attract support across the country. They are bigger than FFC by fan base etc, but we are slowly catching up in that area.
