Just a discussion thread about players we have had that undoubtedly had talent but just never hit those heights. I'm hoping that Ruiz doesn't fall into this category in coming seasons.
The player for me that had it all was Kamara. Pace to burn, skill but could never put 2 good games together and ultimately became very frustrating to watch.
Your thoughts?
This isn't following the exact topic but a player who was insane but never played for a top 4 team was Jay-Jay Okocha, he was that good they named him twice!
Fabrice Fernandes. One of the tidiest footballers I've ever seen on his day. A bit greedy and a bit of a wimp, but his on the ball skill was immense.
Definitely Kamara. Also Giles Barnes.
I always thought Fabrice Fernandes failed to go on to bigger things after his loan with us....
Kenny Achampong and Justin Skinner.
Rodney Marsh whilst he played for us. Alec Stock transformed him at QPR.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 01, 2012, 02:42:29 PM
Fabrice Fernandes. One of the tidiest footballers I've ever seen on his day. A bit greedy and a bit of a wimp, but his on the ball skill was immense.
Had posted whilst I wrote mine about Fernandes. Clearly great minds think a-like Equalizer
I thought John Harley was going to be an England regular. He just hit a wall.
Collins John. Deary me, I though we had found the next Ronaldo.
Quote from: twang on June 01, 2012, 03:12:50 PM
Collins John. Deary me, I though we had found the next Ronaldo.
Always remember that goal he scored up at 'Boro. Was class.
Luke Cornwall, of all people. Perhaps because the programme spent several years bigging him up as the next hot prospect from our youth system, he made his debut in the first team, scored a good goal and...disappeared.
Agree with Collins John, and dear old Kenny Achampong, a well balanced player with a chip on each shoulder ( :drums: I thank you, I'm here all week), the other one who ultimately disappointed was Dean Coney, after he and Ivor set Division 3 afire and went on to terrorise Division 2, for the first six months before he hit the barren patch, I thought he could be something really special.
Agree with Fabrice, was convinced he was going to make it big. Didn't like the cold though!
Phillipe Christenval
Quality player, terrible injury record.
Bonnissel.
See above.
In a way, Eddie Johnson. Had so much pace, potential after hitting goals in the American league. Arrived but then had little footballing ability, didn't know the offside trap. Didn't know whether he was an AJ type or a Zamora type striker, big problem.
Paul Brooker
A couple of guys who are still getting paid to play, so they've had nice careers, but never reached the elite status; Liam Rosenior and Wayne Routledge.
Julian Hails; Corey Brown
Adam Green another who came from the youth ranks,19 when he made his debut and had a couple of solid games, thought he could turn out decent but basically just not quite good enough,noticed he's made 56 appearances for Dartford since 2011 and scored 7 goals!
John Finch early 90's (Only played a few games though)...went back to being a chef I think.
Have to agree with EQ about Fabrice, i saw him in a pre season friendly against spurs and he brought this high ball down and turned some spud in one fluent moment of pure brilliance. He then went to stories of just leaving his car in the middle of the rd for the minnions of fulham to retrieve for him, to lee Clark grabbing him by the throat at Burnley in a midweek game in the winter the one game all the papers said we would bottle after winnining our first eleven games (they was right). Didn't he end up in Israel ? What a waste of tremondous talent. Could have been a great. Also who was the Arsenal kid we got after Pesch and Selley (he could have been great if not for them northampton bastards) steve Hughes, thats him thought himself a superstar, completely blanked young kids looking for his autograph, then ended up at??????
Quote from: SoCalJoe on June 01, 2012, 05:09:30 PM
A couple of guys who are still getting paid to play, so they've had nice careers, but never reached the elite status; Liam Rosenior and Wayne Routledge.
Routledge just had his best season -- by far. Liam? ... sigh.
I'm with AFC concerning Christanval, but for wasted talent, my number one will always be Graham French: a strong, quick winger who could lay it on a sixpence with either foot, and had a cannon of a shot. All it took was some booze and a couple of trips to the nick to put paid to him. I saw him on his second comeback [in his mid 30s, pace of a turtle, and about 2 stones overweight] and nobody could touch him.
More than sad, really.
I always wondered what went wrong with Jim Hicks????
And after what we were led to believe, what happened with Steve Marlet..........
John Watson never delivered but that was probably because he actually didn't have any talent in the first place. How he scammed Fulham to sign him up beats me.
But having talent and not delivering, albeit in the swan-song of his career I might add, nobody beats Jari Litmanen. He didn't even manage to put his Fulham shirt on. His highlight in his short Fulham career was beating the famous Fulham medical in the first place.
Duncan Jupp
His sale to Wimbledon raised much needed funds for us during the dark ages just prior to Mickey Adams revolution and I thought Jupp would go on to be a star at a higher level. Never happened and I think he ended up at Southend. Might be wrong. I am sure someone will know
kenny a was the real king kenny.....kilburns finest
I forget his name, but a left back i think (black kid) played at Brum when i got kicked out in what was Woys first game in charge, not officially, but he was there taking the credit for the draw , but if we lost he was just watching (i hate that crap). Thought he had it all, is he the kid at orient that got nicked for some gang crap?
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 01, 2012, 10:18:37 PM
kenny a was the real king kenny.....kilburns finest
Yeah loved him.had a chat outside Walsalls old ground, he hated Jimmy Hill.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on June 01, 2012, 02:43:46 PM
Definitely Kamara. Also Giles Barnes.
Barnes was never given a chance for us. Scored numerous goals in the reserves, notably against Arsenal, but I don't think he even made the squad.
Agree with you and the rest about Kamara though :dft011:
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 01, 2012, 10:20:19 PM
I forget his name, but a left back i think (black kid) played at Brum when i got kicked out in what was Woys first game in charge, not officially, but he was there taking the credit for the draw , but if we lost he was just watching (i hate that crap). Thought he had it all, is he the kid at orient that got nicked for some gang crap?
Zakuani was the one at Orient, but he was a centre back. We had a left back that season called Nathan Ashton and a right back Elliott Omozusi. Omozusi was supposed to be the nuts. I remember stumbling back through town one night, nicking a paper from the bundle left outside Starbucks and reading an article on the supposed eventual Olympics squad. It included Omozusi.
Going back - Dave Metchick and Peter Marinello
Quote from: Mr_Moon on June 02, 2012, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 01, 2012, 10:20:19 PM
I forget his name, but a left back i think (black kid) played at Brum when i got kicked out in what was Woys first game in charge, not officially, but he was there taking the credit for the draw , but if we lost he was just watching (i hate that crap). Thought he had it all, is he the kid at orient that got nicked for some gang crap?
Zakuani was the one at Orient, but he was a centre back. We had a left back that season called Nathan Ashton and a right back Elliott Omozusi. Omozusi was supposed to be the nuts. I remember stumbling back through town one night, nicking a paper from the bundle left outside Starbucks and reading an article on the supposed eventual Olympics squad. It included Omozusi.
Yep Omozusi it is i think. Weirdly enough didn't he end up at Orient and got nicked for some gang attack?
Just to cross-reference threads...did any of these players who never delivered become postmen?
Quote from: The Doctor on June 02, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
Just to cross-reference threads...did any of these players who never delivered become postmen?
...is this week's winner!
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 02, 2012, 06:44:03 PM
Quote from: Mr_Moon on June 02, 2012, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 01, 2012, 10:20:19 PM
I forget his name, but a left back i think (black kid) played at Brum when i got kicked out in what was Woys first game in charge, not officially, but he was there taking the credit for the draw , but if we lost he was just watching (i hate that crap). Thought he had it all, is he the kid at orient that got nicked for some gang crap?
Zakuani was the one at Orient, but he was a centre back. We had a left back that season called Nathan Ashton and a right back Elliott Omozusi. Omozusi was supposed to be the nuts. I remember stumbling back through town one night, nicking a paper from the bundle left outside Starbucks and reading an article on the supposed eventual Olympics squad. It included Omozusi.
Yep Omozusi it is i think. Weirdly enough didn't he end up at Orient and got nicked for some gang attack?
You are correct Fred!
Quote from: The Doctor on June 02, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
Just to cross-reference threads...did any of these players who never delivered become postmen?
Or played the sax? :032:
Corey brOwn, Michael Mison, Rory Hamill to name a few
Wonder what happened to Nic Sahoun....great talent imo in his oh too brief period with us...on loan from Bordeaux where his dad died on the pitch...were it not for no23 he might have had more games...stocky build but great passer and oozed class...can only be in his early thirties now
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 05, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Wonder what happened to Nic Sahoun....great talent imo in his oh too brief period with us...on loan from Bordeaux where his dad died on the pitch...were it not for no23 he might have had more games...stocky build but great passer and oozed class...can only be in his early thirties now
yeah i thought he looked a winner, but then i thought Leon andreason was going to be big. As an after thought how about talented players who got injured. Jerome Bonnisell and Ian Selley, to this day i still hate Northampton for finishing his carear after only three games, it was Peschi's debut, who was very quickly our first Million pound player after Selley was our first £500k player. I thought Selley could have been much better than Peschi (who was my hero).
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 05, 2012, 06:43:48 PM
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 05, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Wonder what happened to Nic Sahoun....great talent imo in his oh too brief period with us...on loan from Bordeaux where his dad died on the pitch...were it not for no23 he might have had more games...stocky build but great passer and oozed class...can only be in his early thirties now
yeah i thought he looked a winner, but then i thought Leon andreason was going to be big. As an after thought how about talented players who got injured. Jerome Bonnisell and Ian Selley, to this day i still hate Northampton for finishing his carear after only three games, it was Peschi's debut, who was very quickly our first Million pound player after Selley was our first £500k player. I thought Selley could have been much better than Peschi (who was my hero).
[/quote
Remember the day we signed Pesch Fred...decided to pop down to the BBC ground where Fulham were training at the time (opposite the current training ground but now disgracefully unkempt)..recall having a chat with Ray Wilkins about his arrival...a far cry from today's security patrolled arrangements......used to often have a chat with players in the bar and the likes of Micky Conroy used to use the club in the evenings..strangely for a scotsman he didnt drink... he loved celtic....had a chat with kenny at fellows park did you....very talented player who would have played at a higher level in the modern era with the increased protection players of his type receive nowdays....offer still stands of a few beers if you can make it down next monday.
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 05, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Wonder what happened to Nic Sahoun....great talent imo in his oh too brief period with us...on loan from Bordeaux where his dad died on the pitch...were it not for no23 he might have had more games...stocky build but great passer and oozed class...can only be in his early thirties now
Was discussing him with Dad a while ago and out of curiousity looked Sahnoun up on Wikipedia. Bit of a 2nd-tier promotion specialist. He's been promoted with 2 teams from Ligue 2. Other than that, knocked around at the lower levels of French and Spanish football
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 05, 2012, 07:09:50 PM
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on June 05, 2012, 06:43:48 PM
Quote from: Travers Barney on June 05, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Wonder what happened to Nic Sahoun....great talent imo in his oh too brief period with us...on loan from Bordeaux where his dad died on the pitch...were it not for no23 he might have had more games...stocky build but great passer and oozed class...can only be in his early thirties now
yeah i thought he looked a winner, but then i thought Leon andreason was going to be big. As an after thought how about talented players who got injured. Jerome Bonnisell and Ian Selley, to this day i still hate Northampton for finishing his carear after only three games, it was Peschi's debut, who was very quickly our first Million pound player after Selley was our first £500k player. I thought Selley could have been much better than Peschi (who was my hero).
[/quote
Remember the day we signed Pesch Fred...decided to pop down to the BBC ground where Fulham were training at the time (opposite the current training ground but now disgracefully unkempt)..recall having a chat with Ray Wilkins about his arrival...a far cry from today's security patrolled arrangements......used to often have a chat with players in the bar and the likes of Micky Conroy used to use the club in the evenings..strangely for a scotsman he didnt drink... he loved celtic....had a chat with kenny at fellows park did you....very talented player who would have played at a higher level in the modern era with the increased protection players of his type receive nowdays....offer still stands of a few beers if you can make it down next monday.
Cheers Travers, but just started a new job, albiet still agengy. Was going to get season ticket, but my mate Jay blew out after giving it all the biggun. Will defo do a few aways though, i'll look out for the flag.
Ian Selley (for reasons above), Dave Carlton ("the new Johnny Haynes"), Leon Mackenzie (who came to us on loan, unheard of since).
Quote from: Jambo on June 01, 2012, 02:37:24 PM
Just a discussion thread about players we have had that undoubtedly had talent but just never hit those heights. I'm hoping that Ruiz doesn't fall into this category in coming seasons.
The player for me that had it all was Kamara. Pace to burn, skill but could never put 2 good games together and ultimately became very frustrating to watch.
Your thoughts?
What, Chris Kamara?
Or after some mind scratching I would put Collins John in that category also
Vagrant asked about Steve Marlet. A mate of mine played against him recently. In California, a Sunday morning match in the over 30 league.
The top non performer for me was West Ham keeper, Bobby Ferguson. Signed for a record on a 10 year contract from a Scottish team and hardly ever played in the first team. Apparently, his 10 years in the reserves allowed him to become an excellent golfer.
currently browsing the exact same thread on another forum.
Names mentioned : Gazza, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Fabio Paim.
Quote from: elgreenio on June 06, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
currently browsing the exact same thread on another forum.
Names mentioned : Gazza, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Fabio Paim.
Ronaldinho didn't deliver?
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:44 PM
Quote from: elgreenio on June 06, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
currently browsing the exact same thread on another forum.
Names mentioned : Gazza, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Fabio Paim.
Ronaldinho didn't deliver?
think mainly included for his rapid fall from the big time instead of really creating and leaving a legacy a la Giggs/Scholes.
Robinho maybe a better Brazilian example
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:44 PM
Quote from: elgreenio on June 06, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
currently browsing the exact same thread on another forum.
Names mentioned : Gazza, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Fabio Paim.
Ronaldinho didn't deliver?
Not for us, no. Nor any of the others, the fools.
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Jon Otsemobor. Meant to be Englands next best centre back when he was at Pool...... released by Sheff Weds this year.
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
So all these years it people should have lustfully referred to 'England 1970' rather than 'Brazil 1970'?
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
Mervin Day was going to be the next Gordon Banks then went off the face of the planet (reportedly just after he got married)
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
Thank you for your very useful insight Mr IW. I would never have guessed.
Quote from: finnster01 on June 06, 2012, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
Thank you for your very useful insight Mr IW. I would never have guessed.
No problem!
:)
I recommend
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4)
if you want to find out more!
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: finnster01 on June 06, 2012, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
Thank you for your very useful insight Mr IW. I would never have guessed.
No problem!
:)
I recommend
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4)
if you want to find out more!
Now, now, Mr. Finn. Be nice on IW. Until now I had no idea that the better team doesn't always win. Had I spent more time playing Football Manager, I'd probably have picked up that stunning piece of logic before now.
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 07:57:40 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 07:45:24 PM
Quote from: finnster01 on June 06, 2012, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on June 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: cottage cheese on June 06, 2012, 04:16:04 PM
the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
Thank you for your very useful insight Mr IW. I would never have guessed.
No problem!
:)
I recommend
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Back-Home-England-1970-World/dp/0575071583/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1339008337&sr=8-4)
if you want to find out more!
Now, now, Mr. Finn. Be nice on IW. Until now I had no idea that the better team doesn't always win. Had I spent more time playing Football Manager, I'd probably have picked up that stunning piece of logic before now.
Ouch.
Thank you for the link as I would never have been able to google that myself. However I am absolutely in awe of your tremendous analyst skills in drilling down on the reason why England never won in 1970. "there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like ".
Fantastic stuff fp.gif
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they would have ["they'd"] won the WC in 1970 also.
Quote from: HatterDon on June 06, 2012, 07:57:40 PM
Until now I had no idea that the better team doesn't always win. Had I spent more time playing Football Manager, I'd probably have picked up that stunning piece of logic before now.
You asserted that England would have won
if only there weren't two questionable coaching decisions.
I would argue that even had those two decisions been made differently - a heck of a lot of luck can happen over the course of (at the very minimum) three hours of football against Italy and Brazil.
Chalking 1970 up as England's win - however good the side were - is silly and neglects one of the fundamental characteristics of football.
Quote from: ImperialWhite on June 06, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
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the whole england team from 2000-2011.
or from 1967 - 2012
Not sure the England players really had the talent in the first place...
but for a couple of highly questionable coaching decisions, they'd have won the WC in 1970 also.
Possibly, but saying they 'would' have won the whole competition when they still would have had to face both Italy and Brazil (one of the best Brazil squads of all time) is potentially a little bit fanciful
Well, after having actually been alive and watched the '70 World Cup, I will respectfully disagree with you.
Your first hand account of the 1970 World Cup can give us a reasonable idea of whether or not England were the best team in the world (lots of people have said that we were) but it couldn't tell us the outcome of two hypothetical matches against two great sides. The best sides don't always win cups.
Even if we were the best side at the time, there's no accounting for luck, form, refereeing decisions (linesmen's decisions!) and the like - and the winners Brazil did beat us in the group stages.
As an old bum with some extant memories of both 66 and 70 I feel, with respect all round and some trepidation, the need to wade in here.
I've always felt that the 1970 England side was superior to its 1966 counterpart. Newton/Cooper were probably slightly inferior defensively , but better going forward, than Cohen/Wilson. Mullery was a step up on Stiles, and I thought Labone to be superior to Charlton. I'm far from convinced that Lee was better than the very underrated Hunt, but Bell, coming off the bench was a more skillful version of the amazing Alan Ball. Apart maybe from Bobby Charlton who was World class anyway), the other 66 survivors had matured and improved. They played in the conservative style of 1966 (although at the time, of course it was ground-breaking - can one be conservative and revolutionary at the same time?) but were, by then, supremely confident in it.
The group match against Brazil was an absolute classic. Two fine teams, of differing styles, both at the top of their game. England dominated early, Brazil worked their way back, England's defence was immense. Eventually Tostao outwitted Moore and Pele put Jairzinho ("The Black Graham Leggat") away to score the only goal. Astle should have provided England with a draw, but famously missed. It didn't really matter (except to England fans). It was a match in which winners and losers both gained stature.
A point that should not be overlooked, though, is that Brazil were, that day, without Gerson, who despite Carlos Alberto, Clodoaldo, Tostao, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Pele, was maybe their best player. His stand in (Paulo Caesar?) had an excellent game, but players with Gerson's skills are not replaceable. He went on to run the final and Brazil remain, despite a goalkeeper who wouldn't have made the England squad and a dodgy centre-half, the best team I ever saw.
England looked like they would demolish the Germans, but playing without Banks (I don't blame Bonetti, it's just that Banks added more to the England equation than just his goalkeeping skills, which were themselves as good as anybody ever had) and some unwise substitutions meant that it was downhill from that moment to the present day.
England might have beaten Brazil in the 1970 WC Final, they were that good, would almost certainly have been tougher to beat than a very good Italy. But I doubt it.
That is an excellent summation Mr CMG. Perhaps I shall disagree with you on Roger Hunt - to me he was largely ineffective and made the absence of Jimmy Greaves absolutely risible – but the one thing that the 1966 team had in spades was a fighting determination and a will to win. This compensated for any deficiencies in skill or talent.
We seem to have lost this zest and national pride in recent years and you don't see a Nobby Stiles or an Alan Ball who would walk barefoot over broken glass for their country.
Foreign managers in charge of England didn't help the cause so let's hope that Roy can instil some purpose and pride in the England shirt once again.
Excellent, Mr. CMG. I remember Pele's interview where he said the entire Brazil team breathed a HUGE sigh of relief when England was eliminated. They all feared facing England a second time.
"A match for adults" as Zagalo put it.
A big difference between then and now is of attitude. Then England were World Champions, they knew it and played like they knew it. The match itself was a genuine Champions v Challengers job.
These days a match against Brazil would have some people shooting their mouths off and everybody secretely shitting themselves for a fortnight in advance.
(I won't get into the Roger Hunt question, Mr CH. I admit that my Hunt admiration is one of my (many) eccentricities. Please be assured, however, that I do not rate him above, or anywhere near to, the wonderful, unique talent that was Jimmy Greaves.)
Francis Jeffers and Luke Chadwick
Quote from: CorkedHat on June 07, 2012, 05:02:45 AM
That is an excellent summation Mr CMG. Perhaps I shall disagree with you on Roger Hunt - to me he was largely ineffective and made the absence of Jimmy Greaves absolutely risible
I can't imagine any German manager leaving a striker of Greaves' deadliness out of
his team - it would be like ignoring, say, Gerd Müller. Just think of what a combo of Hurst and Greaves could have achieved!
Quote from: cebu on June 07, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
I can't imagine any German manager leaving a striker of Greaves' deadliness out of his team - it would be like ignoring, say, Gerd Müller. Just think of what a combo of Hurst and Greaves could have achieved!
It seems so obvious now, with the benefit of hindsight. But at the time it was hardly a consideration.
As far as Ramsey was concerned it was always going to be Greaves OR Hurst.
Hunt played a different game for Liverpool (he was their leading scorer for eight years in a row) but Ramsey wanted him for his workrate as much as his other skills and he was ideally suited to the slightly withdrawn role in Ramsey's setup. Workrate was not high on Greaves' list of talents, but he would have been Ramsey's first choice. Hurst had 5 caps going into the Finals without really exciting many people. In the pre-Finals matches Ramsey had tried all three combinations, Greaves/Hunt had been easily the most impressive and that's what he started with. Greaves' injury gave Hurst his chance against Argentina - and the rest is history. We all know now that Geoff Hurst was a top-class international striker, but not even Alf Ramsey knew that in mid-July of 1966.
Paul Gascoigne has got to be up there somewhere.
A massive talent blighted by injuries and a self-destruct button.
Michael Johnson. Everybody will be talking about the wasted talent of Ravel Morrison in several years time as well ... I'm pretty sure of it.
Quote from: cmg on June 07, 2012, 06:43:21 PM
Quote from: cebu on June 07, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
I can't imagine any German manager leaving a striker of Greaves' deadliness out of his team - it would be like ignoring, say, Gerd Müller. Just think of what a combo of Hurst and Greaves could have achieved!
It seems so obvious now, with the benefit of hindsight. But at the time it was hardly a consideration.
As far as Ramsey was concerned it was always going to be Greaves OR Hurst.
Hunt played a different game for Liverpool (he was their leading scorer for eight years in a row) but Ramsey wanted him for his workrate as much as his other skills and he was ideally suited to the slightly withdrawn role in Ramsey's setup. Workrate was not high on Greaves' list of talents, but he would have been Ramsey's first choice. Hurst had 5 caps going into the Finals without really exciting many people. In the pre-Finals matches Ramsey had tried all three combinations, Greaves/Hunt had been easily the most impressive and that's what he started with. Greaves' injury gave Hurst his chance against Argentina - and the rest is history. We all know now that Geoff Hurst was a top-class international striker, but not even Alf Ramsey knew that in mid-July of 1966.
I think Ramsey had a fairly good idea about Hurst's abilities - that's surely how he got to be in the squad in the first place.
Quote from: cebu on June 08, 2012, 01:39:31 AM
I think Ramsey had a fairly good idea about Hurst's abilities - that's surely how he got to be in the squad in the first place.
Well, yes, my friend. Ramsey, being the shrewd judge that he was, probably had as good idea of Geoff's abilities as anybody. And that was enough to make him the no. 3 front man in the squad out of three. At that time he had 5 caps and one international goal. Unlike in the case of, say, Rooney, at the same stage, nobody was saying "Wow, this bloke is fantastic, let's get him in the team."
Even after his fine showings against Argentina and Portugal many (most?) people expected Greaves, having recovered from injury, to replace him in the final. Typically, Ramsey showed faith in the man who had done well in possession; perhaps he foresaw something of what Hurst would become; I doubt that he foresaw him scoring the World Cup Final hat-trick that made him a World -famous name in a single afternoon.
Geoff continued to improve and develop as a player after he had achieved such fame and became a World-class striker in actuality. (The six he got against Sunderland in 1968 might have coincided with the high point of his talent.)
Anyway, an interesting discussion and an opportunity to recount one of my favourite Ramsey stories.
After the last International of the season following the WC victory, Hurst, by then a fully established international, said goodbye to Ramsey wih a cheery, "See you next season, Alf."
Ramsey's reply (you have to imagine his deadpan Posh/Cockney accent, like a high class butler), "If selected, you will be informed in the normal way, Geoffrey."
As Hurst said, Ramsey was always fiercely loyal to his players, but, World Cup hat-trick or not, you always knew who was boss.
Quote from: cmg on June 08, 2012, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: cebu on June 08, 2012, 01:39:31 AM
Anyway, an interesting discussion and an opportunity to recount one of my favourite Ramsey stories.
After the last International of the season following the WC victory, Hurst, by then a fully established international, said goodbye to Ramsey wih a cheery, "See you next season, Alf."
Ramsey's reply (you have to imagine his deadpan Posh/Cockney accent, like a high class butler), "If selected, you will be informed in the normal way, Geoffrey."
As Hurst said, Ramsey was always fiercely loyal to his players, but, World Cup hat-trick or not, you always knew who was boss.
The Ramsey story is a much quoted one and I certainly suspect it to be true.
You have to understand that Alf's stature as a manger was evaluated quite differently in West Germany. His tactical decisions were evaluated as strange and the persistence with wingless play as inept. Unfortunately, when they're right, they're right. Alf's track record after '66 is uninspiring. I think he set the development of English back quite a bit. A "lucky general" rather than a "competent general", perhaps?
>A "lucky general" rather than a "competent general", perhaps?<
Well, Napoleon said he would prefer 'lucky' generals to 'clever' ones. But then he was another gent upon whom views differ dependent on what side of the water you are on.
It's very interesting to get a different view of a bloke (a rather strange one in many ways) for whom, as you can probably guess, I have a great deal of admiration. No manager I have ever known stuck his neck out as far as Ramsey did. "Most certainly, England will win the World Cup Competition." was his stock reply to questions for some time before the event, and at a time when that seemed, at best, most unlikely, if not downright stupid.
It is understandable that the Germans would take a particular view of him. His decisions regarding subs in Mexico and his selection in the return Euro fixture in '72 must have seemed pretty bizarre (they didn't impress many over here).
The 'wingless wonders' thing was a bit of a puzzler, too. It was fairly successful when he first tried it in December 1965 (wins against Spain and WGermany and a draw against Poland) but from then on, in the eight of nine matches up to the Quarter Final against Argentina he always played one of Paine, Callaghan or Connelly. He seemed to suggest it was not a 'philosophy' but merely a practical response to the talent available to him. Of course, after it was seen to work, everyone jumped on the bandwaggon, probably to England's long-term detriment.
His record after winning the WC was something like p66 w38 d18 l10 (includes a 3rd place in the 68 Euros) which is as good as any subsequent England manager (apart from Capello!). His big failure was not qualifying for the 74 WC, for which he was sacked. (Useless fact of the Week: The last player to score against Ramsey's England was Fabio Capello.)
