Safe standing at rail seats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apX5V1IJCW4#ws)
...this is worth watching...
What would stop a crush in the middle of the row if fans enter the row at both ends? OK it won't be from behind or from the front but the side. And also more people squeezing in the row space 1 or 2 deep. Each row safety wise might only allow 30 people but you would not be able to really police that and you might get 40 in it.
Quote from: MJG on November 19, 2012, 10:12:01 PM
What would stop a crush in the middle of the row if fans enter the row at both ends? OK it won't be from behind or from the front but the side. And also more people squeezing in the row space 1 or 2 deep. Each row safety wise might only allow 30 people but you would not be able to really police that and you might get 40 in it.
What is stopping this from happening in a seated area??
EDIT: Also, we don't have huge cages to block the pitch, so fans would just get pushed onto the pitch. One reason why Hillsborough happened was because people bought fake tickets and got in with them.
The Hillsborough disaster was NOT caused by fake tickets!! Go and read the TRUTH here >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9604197/Hillsborough-disaster-the-independent-report-in-full.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9604197/Hillsborough-disaster-the-independent-report-in-full.html) << Please stop peddling and telling LIES!!!!!!!! :035:
If you support Safe standing? Here is the campaign >> http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding/index.php (http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding/index.php) << 098.gif 098.gif 098.gif
Quote from: Walsh on November 20, 2012, 02:45:13 AM
Quote from: MJG on November 19, 2012, 10:12:01 PM
What would stop a crush in the middle of the row if fans enter the row at both ends? OK it won't be from behind or from the front but the side. And also more people squeezing in the row space 1 or 2 deep. Each row safety wise might only allow 30 people but you would not be able to really police that and you might get 40 in it.
What is stopping this from happening in a seated area??
.
A row of 30 seats has 30 people in it.
A row of 30 seats that are put up to make standing becomes say 40 standing places, but it really becomes as many as you can fit in which equals possible crush.
What is the attraction of standing, what is it you cannot do sitting down?
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 20, 2012, 07:36:36 AM
What is the attraction of standing, what is it you cannot do sitting down?
I prefer standing, I've been to grounds in various countries where it happens and I always prefer the atmosphere, no sure why. Plus I'm tall and find most seats cramped.
I prefer standing and would love to see this trialled.
To Mr MJG's point, safe standing is safe not just because the rail seat system prevents surges, but also because the number of people in that section is controlled so you don't have more people than there are seats. So overcrowding isn't an issue either.
It is like designated seating, just with the ability to stand.
That's my understanding, anyway. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 20, 2012, 07:36:36 AM
What is the attraction of standing, what is it you cannot do sitting down?
You wouldn't have to keep jumping up because the numpty in front of you has, also your legs can be out straight and not bent back as at some grounds like that tip down the road at the bush.
Incidentally when it comes to comments re Hillsborough can we keep things civil... I daresay there is a lot of rubbish mixed in with the truth, but please try and avoid getting personal when responding to points on this.
Thanks.
The Football Safety Officers Association DO NOT support return to standing at football stadia...
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
Safe standing is the future, the sooner the better.
Quote from: Burt on November 20, 2012, 09:41:36 AM
I prefer standing and would love to see this trialled.
To Mr MJG's point, safe standing is safe not just because the rail seat system prevents surges, but also because the number of people in that section is controlled so you don't have more people than there are seats. So overcrowding isn't an issue either.
It is like designated seating, just with the ability to stand.
That's my understanding, anyway. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
As I just wrote how do you enforce the limit in a row. Some places have a yellow box to stand in, please thats not going to be taken notice of. Yes there are limits to the amount of people in that section but that does not stop people distributing themselves where they like. Be that at the front/back/middle and in any row.
If stewards
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
David Conn at The Guardian maintains that it was never about crowd safety but eliminating the 'hooligan' element attached to football. The thinking, apparently, was that all seater stadia would drive up prices and price out the young, the poor and the working classes - from amongst which Thatcher and her ilk believed most hooligans were drawn. It would also make it harder to misbehave at grounds and easier to police going in and coming out.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/17/premier-league-safe-standing-areas?CMP=twt_gu (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/17/premier-league-safe-standing-areas?CMP=twt_gu)
Voices rise up in support of move to safe standing in top two divisions
Leading Premier League figures are calling for a rethink into requirement of all-seater stadiums
David Conn
The Observer, Saturday 17 November 2012 22.00 GMT
Jump to comments (123)
In the growing support for the campaign to introduce safe standing at England's top football grounds it is, gradually, becoming acceptable to discuss a subject almost taboo since standing was banned from the top two divisions after the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.
The Football Supporters' Federation, campaigning energetically for modern, safe standing areas similar to those enjoyed by thousands of fans in Germany's Bundesliga stadiums, have been backed by an increasing number of English clubs. David Gold, co-chairman of West Ham, said in the past week that he would "certainly consider" incorporating safe standing areas into the Olympic Stadium should West Ham ever move there. He joins Aston Villa and Sunderland among Premier League clubs – whose fans stand at matches in their thousands anyway despite high ticket prices – in encouraging an open debate.
Paul Faulkner, Villa's chief executive, who will address a meeting of MPs on the issue at Westminster next month, bases his support for a trial of standing areas on the simple fact that, 20 years since the ban, so many fans still stand at matches. "Whenever we have discussed the topic with our fans we've found almost unanimous support for such a trial, and the concept of giving fans the choice to decide to either sit or stand at a game," Faulkner says.
Villa have identified a corner of the Trinity stand, adjoining the Holte End, as an area to trial the rail seats that are employed in the vast, popular standing areas of the Bundesliga clubs. "We fully support the FSF's campaign to allow small-scale trials of safe standing areas at grounds," Faulkner says. "We believe Villa Park could be a potential venue for such a trial and would like the opportunity to progress the plans further with the wider support of the football community."
The reason standing up to watch a football match remains a subject of debate is, of course, the historic link with Hillsborough. The government remains opposed to allowing standing unless "a compelling case" is presented, with the agreement, crucially, of the police. The Hillsborough Family Support Group repeatedly stress their opposition, since they associate standing with the shameful conditions at Sheffield Wednesday's ground in 1989 from which their loved ones never returned.
It is increasingly clear, though, that all-seat stadiums remain compulsory in the top two divisions not because seating is considered necessary to address the disgraceful safety failures of Hillsborough. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, recommended seating as a means of better controlling fans and addressing concerns over hooliganism and not just ensuring supporter safety.
The Sports Grounds Safety Authority, responsible for the legal framework governing the nation's stadiums, no longer tries to sustain an argument that standing is inherently unsafe. The SGSA oversees the safety requirements in the many sports venues where standing has always been permitted – football grounds in Leagues One, Two and the non-League game; rugby league and union stadiums; racecourses and other venues – and so cannot argue it is inherently unsafe.
The SGSA's official Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds does recommend seating for spectators "wherever possible" but of standing areas states: "Wherever standing accommodation is provided – be it in the form of terraces, viewing slopes, level areas or spectator galleries – it should be designed and managed to be safe."
Officially, then, standing is not unsafe. The principal reason standing was and remains banned, which has not always been openly acknowledged, was not to protect fans from crushes but to deal with fans' misbehaviour. It has been revealed that Margaret Thatcher's government believed all-seat stadiums should be made compulsory, even before Lord Justice Taylor made that his recommendation in his final report in January 1990. A document disclosed to the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which in September reported conclusively on the disaster's causes and its aftermath, shows Bernard Ingham, the then prime minister's secretary, briefing the political lobby on 17 April 1989, two days after the disaster: "The government took the view," his briefing read, "that all-seated accommodation at major designated football grounds was necessary."
Throughout the 1980s the Thatcher government was obsessed not with ensuring clubs met decent and defined safety standards – as Bradford City, Sheffield Wednesday and others so disastrously did not – but with "hooliganism" and finding ways to prevent it. Taylor's report followed a disaster he accepted was not caused by fans misbehaving, as South Yorkshire police falsely claimed. Yet in his report he did discuss seating as a way to deal with "miscreants" and "trouble-makers" as well as safety: "While there is no panacea that will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control," Taylor wrote, "seating does more to achieve these objectives than any other single measure."
The Football Supporters Association, now merged into the FSF, disagreed – as did the Football Association, which argued for retaining some standing. Taylor famously said that clubs need not seize on all-seating as an opportunity to raise ticket prices but the hyperinflation since suggests his faith in the club's better nature was overoptimistic.
Peter Daykin, coordinator of the FSF's safe standing campaign, argues that clubs deliberately raised ticket prices to exclude young and poorer people, partly because they believed that would keep trouble-makers away. "There is no doubt they have changed the demographic," Daykin says. Many fans have always felt that a depth of atmosphere, what Taylor recognised as a "cherished culture", was lost when he outlawed standing.
Andy Holt, who leads on football policing for the Association of Chief Police Officers, is opposed to standing areas, which he explains in terms of managing misbehaviour, not safety. "My argument is we have gone from those dreadful dark days, when football was blighted by violence and bad behaviour, and all-seater stadia have been part of the great improvement," Holt says. "If you go back to standing areas, I think it is likely it will attract the unruly element."
The Premier League argues that "supporter experience has improved significantly" because of all-seat grounds and that they have led to more women and children at matches. The FSF responds to the FA's opposition with survey results from the Grange Road end at Cardiff's Ninian Park the season before it went all-seat, showing 45% of standing season ticket holders were women, and 35% under 16. "Germany's new generation of safe standing areas shows they are no barrier to the young or women supporters," argues the FSF, which has backed its passion for standing with a voracious appetite to research the evidence.
Daykin argues that, if the true reason for the all-seat law is the fear of hooliganism returning, despite all the social changes and improvements to grounds and stewarding since the 1980s, the evidence for that claim should be examined and honestly debated.
This much is certain already: two decades after standing was prohibited in the top two divisions, many fans have never accepted it, still want to stand and do so. Many object to the eye-watering prices they pay for seats, deeply miss the "cherished culture" of standing together and believe concerns that hooliganism would return are highly exaggerated. A growing number of clubs believe they should not be forcing their supporters to sit down any more.
VOICES OF SUPPORT
"Whenever we have discussed the topic with our fans we've found almost unanimous support for a trial, and the concept of giving fans the choice to decide to either sit or stand at a game." Paul Faulkner, Aston Villa chief executive
"We would like to give fans who want to stand the opportunity to do so in a safe, appropriately designated area. The rail seats concept looks interesting and, if the rules allowed it, I'd be happy to manage standing fans in such areas." Paul Weir, Sunderland safety manager
"A not insignificant number of our fans prefer to watch football standing up but we currently do not have the opportunity to satisfy this customer preference. Rail seats could provide us with a safe and well-managed means of doing so." Nigel Clough, Derby County manager
"I fully support the FSF's campaign and hope that together we can persuade the powers that be to look seriously at the rail seat option." Bob Symns, Peterborough United chief executive
More detail and a petition at fsf.org.uk/petitions/safestanding.php
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
If stewards Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
How very civil, and we all know how crowds react to stewards telling them what to do. Do you really belive that fans are going to stay in there nice little yellow box.
Perhaps if we raised prices further we could price out those who rely upon foul language to express themselves at matches, allowing Giles, Rupert and myself to read our newspapers in peace...
You are a card...........................or it is some other word beginning with C.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 20, 2012, 11:00:08 AM
You are a card...........................or it is some other word beginning with C.
I am hoping you mean "cheerful chappie".
I have already said earlier in the thread around the need to avoid personal abuse etc. so please bear that in mind.
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
If stewards Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
How very civil, and we all know how crowds react to stewards telling them what to do. Do you really belive that fans are going to stay in there nice little yellow box.
I'm sorry I forgot how violent Fulham fans are
He said "Hello!"
Nogood "he didn't, isit" Boyo
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
If stewards Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
How very civil, and we all know how crowds react to stewards telling them what to do. Do you really belive that fans are going to stay in there nice little yellow box.
I'm sorry I forgot how violent Fulham fans are
And where did I say that? But Ok lets play that game.
The Enclosure, a place where I used to stand and walk the full length of just to talk to someone in the bad old days.
You put these rails in and you have the yellow box system which is allocated on a ticket.
No violence involved but do you really think people are not going to go and mingle around with friends who they could not get a 'standing' ticket next to. And you expect a steward to look down a row and know that there are 30 people standing in their boxs or maybe there is 35. Makes the ablity of the stewards or safety people know how many are in that row. At the moment a head count is easy with seats.
The whole argument seems to be it will stop a surge from behind, but crowding could still be an issue within pockets of the areas. There is no room for movement except left or right. You could argue that with seats if there is trouble you could just go over them. With the rail in the video you only can go sideways.
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
If stewards Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
How very civil, and we all know how crowds react to stewards telling them what to do. Do you really belive that fans are going to stay in there nice little yellow box.
I'm sorry I forgot how violent Fulham fans are
And where did I say that? But Ok lets play that game.
The Enclosure, a place where I used to stand and walk the full length of just to talk to someone in the bad old days.
You put these rails in and you have the yellow box system which is allocated on a ticket.
No violence involved but do you really think people are not going to go and mingle around with friends who they could not get a 'standing' ticket next to. And you expect a steward to look down a row and know that there are 30 people standing in their boxs or maybe there is 35. Makes the ablity of the stewards or safety people know how many are in that row. At the moment a head count is easy with seats.
The whole argument seems to be it will stop a surge from behind, but crowding could still be an issue within pockets of the areas. There is no room for movement except left or right. You could argue that with seats if there is trouble you could just go over them. With the rail in the video you only can go sideways.
I think that with these rails there is enough of a space for people to move down or climb up. Also if it does start getting overcrowded it is just on one row and you'd think people would have the common sense to move out and realise there isn't enough space. I doubt people would keep moving into one row if it was completely full.
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: premFlem on November 20, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
If stewards Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Standing isn't inherently unsafe, the stadium safety authorities also look after rugby (both codes), horese racing etc. where there are large crowds with standing terracing. Ticket numbers will be limited, so there should never be an issue where there would be a crush. I would love to see the Stevenage Enclosure re-opened as safe standing at Craven Cottage.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
How very polite of you, dont think anyone has been so rude to me on here in 3 years of posting.
I'm not ignorant of the case for standing (but I'm against it yes) and am following it closely.
One question....Explain to me how you would enforce a limit on the number of people trying to stand in one of those rows?
if stewards see a row is overcrowded they would ask to see fans tickets then guide them to their correct row simple really.
How very civil, and we all know how crowds react to stewards telling them what to do. Do you really belive that fans are going to stay in there nice little yellow box.
I'm sorry I forgot how violent Fulham fans are
And where did I say that? But Ok lets play that game.
The Enclosure, a place where I used to stand and walk the full length of just to talk to someone in the bad old days.
You put these rails in and you have the yellow box system which is allocated on a ticket.
No violence involved but do you really think people are not going to go and mingle around with friends who they could not get a 'standing' ticket next to. And you expect a steward to look down a row and know that there are 30 people standing in their boxs or maybe there is 35. Makes the ablity of the stewards or safety people know how many are in that row. At the moment a head count is easy with seats.
The whole argument seems to be it will stop a surge from behind, but crowding could still be an issue within pockets of the areas. There is no room for movement except left or right. You could argue that with seats if there is trouble you could just go over them. With the rail in the video you only can go sideways.
I wish you would stop playing games and come out with what you're realiy worried about rather than this irrational safety issue.
Quote from: Burt on November 20, 2012, 11:10:00 AM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 20, 2012, 11:00:08 AM
You are a card...........................or it is some other word beginning with C.
I am hoping you mean "cheerful chappie".
I have already said earlier in the thread around the need to avoid personal abuse etc. so please bear that in mind.
Clot actually :005:
Well I won't be in the standing area being smallish with a dodgy back and knees. I just hope they don't make the seated area more expensive.
Quote from: Berserker on November 20, 2012, 01:14:27 PM
Well I won't be in the standing area being smallish with a dodgy back and knees. I just hope they don't make the seated area more expensive.
[/quote
I don't think it will ever return to Craven Cottage as it costs money to put in but wouldn't generate any extra income...
it would generate extra income as you can fit more people in, and safely. As shown in Germany, capacity is higher when the stadiums are set up for Bundesliga rather than the all seater international games. And as shown in Germany, it can be done safely. Surges are minimised, as each row is narrow, only able to be a couple of people deep, with no way crowds can surge from behind. There's no pretending that this is a place for small children or the ederly, there will be the occasional squeeze in the crowd as people find their spots, but it's minimal. If people want to move around or find their mates then there's space to do that, but a little consideration will have to be shown. And as shown in Germany it CAN be done, as long as everyone has respect for each other and the situation they're in.
I spend half the game standing up now as the numpties in front jump up as soon as any attack starts so what is the difference ?
The away fans spend the whole game standing so have there been mass injuries among standing away support around the country? No.It is like people moaning about increasing the speed limit on the motorway to 80, most drivers already drive at that speed anyway.
Capacity at the Cottage is maxed out and can only be Increased by introducing new turnstiles and egress routes. capacity in the JH stand is limited by circulating room under the stand. Just because you can fit more bodies in, doesn't mean the capacity is increased. Unless safe standing is introduced during design it probably will not increase capacity of a stadium.
So how did 47k of us get in and out on Easter Monday 1967 ?
Monday 27 March 1967
League Division One
Craven Cottage (47,290)
Fulham 2 - 2 Man Utd
I don't have a problem with a standing area, just not for me, cannot do a full match standing nowdays.
same here, stood for the final in Hamburg and was I glad to sit down half time, however there should be a choice.
Quote from: Joe McDonald on November 20, 2012, 09:20:16 AM
Please stop spouting ignorant crap, MJG. Read the literature on safe standing, educate yourself.
Walsh - that is one of the single most stupid things I've read on this forum. Fake tickets were not the problem at Hillsborough. An unsafe ground with a lapsed safety certificate and very poor policing were the contributing factors to that tragedy. Surely you have read some articles on the TRUTH following the publication of the last inquiry?
Meh, that's what I read online. I have been to many different sporting events where it is standing and never had a issue and personally I don't think we would come across any issues if it came back now.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 20, 2012, 11:10:03 PM
So how did 47k of us get in and out on Easter Monday 1967 ?
Monday 27 March 1967
League Division One
Craven Cottage (47,290)
Fulham 2 - 2 Man Utd
Probably in a very unsafe manner that luckily would not be acceptable today.
If you want to argue any more please first read the Safety at Sports Ground act's "green guide" and then hopefully you will be informed enough for more sensible debate...
I have had to read Health and safety at work for years and that makes sense? helps me to be informed? I don't think so, written by people who do not live in the real world.
So every time I went to the cottage when we had standing I was at danger?, Fear of my life ending, 40k people all at risk? and you talk about sensible debate?
If you want to have an informed debate about capacities at football stadia, you need to know the rules from the Act, end of...
Getting you H & S information from the daily mail just doesn't doesn't cut it
I suspect rules have changed with regards the flow rate of people through the walkways. Under the Hammersmith end we have the two tier walkways which would (I think) have a safety level a lot lower than the old days of the hammersmith end. its a pretty big crush now let alone extra seats/standing at that end. Thats why extra exits would be required.
I think I read somewhere that as part of the Riverside development, there would be extra exits by the river at both ends of the ground. This can only help because it is a bit of a squeeze.
IMO if the Enclosure ( tailor made ) was all standing and we had a smaller standing area down the front of the Riverside, what an atmosphere it would make !!. I think Fulham would get permission over any other ground.
Quote from: Edward_Winston_Malone on November 21, 2012, 11:34:13 AM
If you want to have an informed debate about capacities at football stadia, you need to know the rules from the Act, end of...
Getting you H & S information from the daily mail just doesn't doesn't cut it
From my very important and highly paid job, not the daily mail, is that not meals on wheels at the door?
Quote from: epsomraver on November 21, 2012, 12:15:09 PM
Quote from: Edward_Winston_Malone on November 21, 2012, 11:34:13 AM
If you want to have an informed debate about capacities at football stadia, you need to know the rules from the Act, end of...
Getting you H & S information from the daily mail just doesn't doesn't cut it
From my very important and highly paid job, not the daily mail, is that not meals on wheels at the door?
ENJOY YOUR FOOD, GET THEM TO CUT IT UP FOR YOU...
...ageism is alive and well I see.
Anyway, I'm disappointed that personal insults as opposed to 'banter' have been the result of this post.
I prefer terracing, full stop. I hope I can find a suitable stepped zimmer for when the time comes that I can legally stand. Oh! and FulhamOldBoy, I survived the 1967 Easter game against man ure with 43K, and in what would give the jobsworth H&E consultants apoplexy is that kids like I was at the time were given room to congregate at the front of the terracing so that we could see the game easier, and horror of horrors, adults used to pass the younger children over their heads to the front also for the same reason - and some of us survived unharmed.
Good old Darwin...
Quote from: KCat on November 21, 2012, 11:56:26 AM
IMO if the Enclosure ( tailor made ) was all standing and we had a smaller standing area down the front of the Riverside, what an atmosphere it would make !!. I think Fulham would get permission over any other ground.
I think that would be really great. There may be an issue with a risk assessment for safe standing in the JH stand. The JH stand is designated higher risk because it is made of wood.
The circulating areas under the stand have been reduced by recent developments and so space there is a limiting factor. The stand would have to be segregated to stop fans tryng to change ends at half time. Having these segregation barriers in would limit further the capacity as they reduce egress routes.
The area would need to be relatively heavily stewarded to avoid those standing in the rain trying to move back, (remember the half covered Hammersmith end) and to ensure that those entering the stand with tickets for seats don't try to get into the standing areas (like many music gigs).
We would need to check the slope of the stand to ensure that viewing angles are suitable for standing and we would need to designate some areas as unusable due to restricted views. Restricted viewing areas don't work for safe standing areas as people would try and budge up to get a better view.
As the capacity limiting factor for the stand is based around access and ingresss, there will probably not be any increased capacity from this reconfiguration and therefore no profit to be had from introducing it, unless people are willing to pay more to stand than to sit.
The police and LBH&F and the Safety Officer will be against it because of the extra risk that they will need to sign off.
Because of the precedent it will set for QPR and CFC, LBH&F and the police will probably publically support it but privately block it...
The BPL / FA will not like it as it sets a precedent (much in the same way they did not like us having standing areas whe we first came up). it may work at craven cottagemuch the same way that our neutral end works (because we are friendly Fulham and NOT Chelsea or QPR) but the precedent will not be enjoyed by other clubs who will lobby us not to implement it.
...
Personally I would prefer a safe standing area that incorporates a new Vocal fans section within the Hammersmith End ideally.
That's a very good point you make Mr EW about spectators in a 'standing only' enclosure wishing to gravitate towards the end we were attacking, or even the centre line if the area was divided in two. Perhaps there would need to be a number of sections, but stewarding would be a nightmare compared to seated areas. For that reason maybe it would be easier to manage if the standing area was in the Hammersmith end.
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 21, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
...the seats aren't big enough in H6, anyway it would distract me from the match..!
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 21, 2012, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 21, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
...the seats aren't big enough in H6, anyway it would distract me from the match..!
Surely more likely to go unnoticed in a standing area ..... and you wouldn't get grumbled at for blocking anyone's view.
Quote from: Senior Supporter on November 21, 2012, 02:24:01 PM
That's a very good point you make Mr EW about spectators in a 'standing only' enclosure wishing to gravitate towards the end we were attacking, or even the centre line if the area was divided in two. Perhaps there would need to be a number of sections, but stewarding would be a nightmare compared to seated areas. For that reason maybe it would be easier to manage if the standing area was in the Hammersmith end.
It ain't quite as simple as the "safe standing brigade" would have you believe...
Quote from: Senior Supporter on November 21, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 21, 2012, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 21, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
...the seats aren't big enough in H6, anyway it would distract me from the match..!
Surely more likely to go unnoticed in a standing area ..... and you wouldn't get grumbled at for blocking anyone's view.
...another excellent reason for safe standing, I can think of some onanists who could benefit, but they will be sitting down..!
Cottaging at the Cottage
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 21, 2012, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 21, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
...the seats aren't big enough in H6, anyway it would distract me from the match..!
If this was in the JH stand you may end up with some nasty splinters in unfortunate places...!
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 21, 2012, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: Senior Supporter on November 21, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 21, 2012, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 21, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Even sex is better sitting down with the perfect women.
...the seats aren't big enough in H6, anyway it would distract me from the match..!
Surely more likely to go unnoticed in a standing area ..... and you wouldn't get grumbled at for blocking anyone's view.
...another excellent reason for safe standing, I can think of some onanists who could benefit, but they will be sitting down..!
Jeez LB, I had to look that word up, and from what I read, sitting down may not be the requirement, though preferable it must be said.
As for all this malarkey regarding bringing back the terraces, I agree, the front end of the Riverside would be best, so the old codgers like myself (and others I have noticed on here) can sit it comfort in the Hammy end.
As for how it used to be, I do recall, as LB appears to, standing down at the front end of the Hammy end, and never managed to get crushed once, perhaps people were more respectful to and caring of others in those days, but that all changed with the aggro of the 70's that turned stadiums into fortresses and forever spoiled attending the matches. Disasters such as Hillsborough just added to piling on stupid rules on top of stupid rules and at the end of the day, removing the fencing that exacerbated the problems at Hillsborough, didn't lead to the expected violence and pitch invasions they were there to prevent. To my mind it just goes to show that even back then, the authorities making the rules had little idea about what the common man (woman) was like, and that is still true today.
Can we ever return to what it was like? Nope. These days people want comfort, and that allows some clubs to charge exorbitant ticket prices, and as others have expressed on this MB in the past, The Beautiful Game is no longer a working-man's sport, sadly it's just another commercial enterprise.
It ain't quite as simple as the "safe standing brigade" would have you believe...
[/quote
... perhaps we can move this point forward
As an HSE manager.. let me assure YOU, there is absolutely NOTHING so simple, as standing, or safety. Get your nose out of the rabid DM and get a life.
The old Enclosure, in the front of the now renamed JH stand was a purpose built standing area!! It was also safe...!! The fact that people used to smoke and stand in there (for decades!!), seems to have escaped your microscopic gaze. The smoking ban enforced there, is, as much as I hate it, a very necessary piece of legislation, for this type of stand. Although why it is banned in other areas of the ground is a mystery to me and many others.
The entry and egress areas of Craven Cottage have not changed in the past 50 years (if not longer), so why is it a problem now? Far bigger crowds have managed to safely negotiate their way in and out of the area before and dare I say, park right their cars right outside the ground and its surrounding streets... The vast majority also managed to stand for the whole match as well, with no ill effects!!!
"Safe Standing", is practised all over the world by many millions of human beings every day... and I am sure that the re-introduction of this very same event, will be seen back on the 'terraces' of Craven Cottage, hopefully sooner rather than later!!
Quote from: BB on November 22, 2012, 08:02:45 AM
The entry and egress areas of Craven Cottage have not changed in the past 50 years (if not longer), so why is it a problem now?
But they have changed through health & safety changes/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities.
A cheap "safe standing area" would be a huge plastic tube stapled to the terrace the hight of the stand where the mindless people who want to do this regressive activity can be dropped into on their heads from the top of it.
Quote from: MJG on November 22, 2012, 08:12:06 AM
Quote from: BB on November 22, 2012, 08:02:45 AM
The entry and egress areas of Craven Cottage have not changed in the past 50 years (if not longer), so why is it a problem now?
But they have changed through health & safety changes/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good arguement...
The main problems that led to standing being unsafe in the past were:
1. Unrestricted numbers of fans in various sections.
2. Insufficient number of barriers to prevent crowd surges.
The safe standing solutions you see in the German league deal with these issues. It is exactly the same as having allocated seats, except the seats are locked up for domestic matches, and locked down for European fixtures. And given there are barriers in each row it is probably safer than the all seaters we see in England!
I personally don't see what the issue is with having a trial in a couple of the grounds, and take it from there. If it works, extend it. If it doesn't, knock it on the head.
/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities. WHERE ? I would like to know where the club have reduced the access routes to the detriment of crowd flow, some just argue the point for the sake of it.We need more capacity every one keeps saying, the enclosure back to standing would solve this without the high costs of expansion
Quote from: BB on November 22, 2012, 08:02:45 AM
It ain't quite as simple as the "safe standing brigade" would have you believe...
[/quote
... perhaps we can move this point forward
As an HSE manager.. let me assure YOU, there is absolutely NOTHING so simple, as standing, or safety. Get your nose out of the rabid DM and get a life.
As a HSE manager interested in football, perhaps I met you at the IOSH Event groups recent Event Safety seminar at Millwall?
www.iosh.co.uk (http://www.iosh.co.uk) › 11 Oct 2012 – More than 130 health and safety professionals from the events industry gathered at Millwall Football Club
BTW - Andy Ambler was theer, he is the CEO of Millwall and a fromer Finance Director at FFC. (Don't tell Millwall but he still has a season ticket for the cottage...)
The old Enclosure, in the front of the now renamed JH stand was a purpose built standing area!! It was also safe...!! The fact that people used to smoke and stand in there (for decades!!), seems to have escaped your microscopic gaze. The smoking ban enforced there, is, as much as I hate it, a very necessary piece of legislation, for this type of stand. Although why it is banned in other areas of the ground is a mystery to me and many others.
I have never ventured an opinon on the smoking ban, only pointing out that under the current fire risk assessment for Craven Cottage, it is the highest rated stand. As a HSE manager you will obviously recognise (if you are familiar with the Safety at Sports ground Act), that that means it has to be evacuated in less time than the other stands. This means that the limiting factor for the capacity of this stand is the egress time. This has been impacted by the many major works that have been undertaken under MAF's tenure in this stand to bring it up to scratch for a modern premiership Stadium. These include - bigger shop, bigger press facilities, more concessions, more toilets etc etc All this means that the space available to stand wil not be able to be used if it increases the capacity to that which could not safely agress in the time allowed.
The entry and egress areas of Craven Cottage have not changed in the past 50 years (if not longer), so why is it a problem now? Far bigger crowds have managed to safely negotiate their way in and out of the area before and dare I say, park right their cars right outside the ground and its surrounding streets... The vast majority also managed to stand for the whole match as well, with no ill effects!!!
"Safe Standing", is practised all over the world by many millions of human beings every day... and I am sure that the re-introduction of this very same event, will be seen back on the 'terraces' of Craven Cottage, hopefully sooner rather than later!!
Quote from: epsomraver on November 22, 2012, 10:01:42 AM
/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities. WHERE ? I would like to know where the club have reduced the access routes to the detriment of crowd flow, some just argue the point for the sake of it.We need more capacity every one keeps saying, the enclosure back to standing would solve this without the high costs of expansion
Ask LBN011 if he has some pictures of the old JH undercroft - you will be amazed at the differences. Do you really believe that the facilities that were in place during the old third division 5000 attendance days would be sufficient for todays sell out Premirship requirements. Just look at the shop it is 3 or 4 times bigger than it was in the 70's and as it hasn't been extened into the road it has taken up space inside the undercroft...
Quote from: Burt on November 22, 2012, 09:48:31 AM
The main problems that led to standing being unsafe in the past were:
1. Unrestricted numbers of fans in various sections.
2. Insufficient number of barriers to prevent crowd surges.
The safe standing solutions you see in the German league deal with these issues. It is exactly the same as having allocated seats, except the seats are locked up for domestic matches, and locked down for European fixtures. And given there are barriers in each row it is probably safer than the all seaters we see in England!
I personally don't see what the issue is with having a trial in a couple of the grounds, and take it from there. If it works, extend it. If it doesn't, knock it on the head.
Perhaps the main arguement against standing areas is not their ability to provide safe areas to stand, but the oporunities it provides for crowd disorder...
Wondered when you would bring that irrelevance up.
...can you imagine the innate terror of some fans when the majority of Fulham fans sang "Stand Up If You Still Believe", one checked their rule book whilst the other swung his baseball bat - perhaps the one with the rule book should worry more about an baseball bat being brought into the ground...
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5523/blacktshirtedited2copy.jpg)
PS: The light was too low in the undercroft for my daguerreotype camera - sorry...
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 22, 2012, 08:17:20 AM
A cheap "safe standing area" would be a huge plastic tube stapled to the terrace the hight of the stand where the mindless people who want to do this regressive activity can be dropped into on their heads from the top of it.
If you we're around in the days of 3-4000 at the cottage you will remember the 1000's of empty seats with the vast majority choosing to stand.
Quote from: premFlem on November 22, 2012, 01:37:09 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on November 22, 2012, 08:17:20 AM
A cheap "safe standing area" would be a huge plastic tube stapled to the terrace the hight of the stand where the mindless people who want to do this regressive activity can be dropped into on their heads from the top of it.
If you we're around in the days of 3-4000 at the cottage you will remember the 1000's of empty seats with the vast majority choosing to stand.
and "stand up, coz you've got no seats" was sung by the visiting supporters on a frequent basis during the first season in the Premiership...
Quote from: epsomraver on November 22, 2012, 10:58:41 AM
Wondered when you would bring that irrelevance up.
Safety officers split on safe standingThe FSOA had decided to debate the issue of persistent / safe standing for the major part of the morning session of their one-day conference. The roadshow was set up outside to give many of the safety officers present their first look at rail seats.
The general mood of the debate was disappointingly negative. However, there were nevertheless some positive points to take from it, not least the fact that nobody present maintained that standing was unsafe. Nor did anyone think that rail seats were unsafe. Without exception, the safety officers' concerns about standing related to issues of crowd management, not safety.
source? No, not the daily mail but...
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/safetyofficerssplitonsafestanding (http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/safetyofficerssplitonsafestanding)
Everybody stood at the euro final in Hamburg and it took me about a week to recover from the experience after a week of severe back pain. That is my main objection to standing the pain it causes and the fights we used to have on the terraces will return which is the main reason we have seats.
FFS, you won't be forced to stand, there will be plenty of seats if you want to sit. And because there will be a standing area that means the people in the seats will want to sit, and won't get in your way forcing you to stand.
could the club not designate a standing area? Is that allowed? I know palace have a section which stands only.
Quote from: King_Crud on November 22, 2012, 04:42:14 PM
FFS, you won't be forced to stand, there will be plenty of seats if you want to sit. And because there will be a standing area that means the people in the seats will want to sit, and won't get in your way forcing you to stand.
A simple and straight to the point reply, well said King Crud.
