Now, I happen to think that up until Mark's bad mistake gave Spurs a goal they never looked like getting, in fact we looked more likely. From that mistake on, our heads went down we lost our shape and Spurs scored another two to gain a scoreline that flattered them. OK, for the last 20 minutes we looked poor. However, the reaction of some on here and in other forums, make us appear to be the worst Premier club ever. I have said it before and I will say it again, form is temporary, both good and poor form, at the moment ours is poor, though I also think this is coupled with some bad luck, losing key players to injury is an example.
What I do find strange, is the insistance by some, that this dooms us to the much feared relegation battle, something that may well happen but at this stage, none of us knows for sure that this is going to happen. Also the insistance that we get rid of certain players, however, they do not say that here and now, who we replace them with. Senerous is an example, fortunately, Brede has now completed his suspension and will hopefully be back for the next game. As far as PS is concerned, none of his critics seem to recognise that this is only his third game this season and yes, his confidence is low but he is all we had for these three games and do you seriously think that the barrage of criticism is going to help him. Also can I just remind some of you who think that Martin Jol signed him, it was Roy Hodgson.
Anyway, rant over and C'mon Fulham.
it doesn't matter if it's his 3rd game of 30th game he is just not good enough. At one point he was tried for many games in place of Hughes and what a disaster that was. Yes we should ship Senderos out and if necessary we have Baird as cover. If my memory is correct Mr Ambitious signed him, but I could be wrong. It wasn't Jol
Question: why would Senderos have low confidence?
He has waited for a chance. Its his 3rd start in a week and after a clean sheet at the European champions.
He should be up for fighting for a place in the team knowing Brede is back next game.
If you cast your mind back to the summer of 2010. Roy Hodgson was covering the World Cup on BBC and in answer to a question said "I am looking forward to working with Phillipe" Definately signed by Hodgson, prior to his departure to Liverpool. As for performance, maybe its an age thing but I think that whilst they play for Fulham, every player should be encouraged, not villified and by the way, thats what I shall continue to do.
It could be because he is aware of the hostility shown by some towards him. Thats my guess any way.
Quote from: Peabody on December 02, 2012, 07:35:54 PM
If you cast your mind back to the summer of 2010. Roy Hodgson was covering the World Cup on BBC and in answer to a question said "I am looking forward to working with Phillipe" Definately signed by Hodgson, prior to his departure to Liverpool. As for performance, maybe its an age thing but I think that whilst they play for Fulham, every player should be encouraged, not villified and by the way, thats what I shall continue to do.
Yes you're right. He was 100% a Hodgson buy.
Yesterday's game had 0-0 all over it until Schwarzer's mistake and Spurs didn't really have to do much more to get a very flattering scroreline. What was worrying though was that we could still be playing and we still wouldn't have scored. I can understand the set up - keep it tight in the middle and attack down the wings but both Dejagah and Frei were poor in my opinion. That was partly becasue we were so slow in getting the ball out to the wings that there was no opportunity to get moving with the ball before they were closed down. Senderos has limitations but it is harsh to blame him for yesterday's defeat! I think he is a decent back up to Hangeland but you are not going to get players of the quality of Hangeland wanting to sit on the bench all season!
Quote from: Artful Dodger on December 02, 2012, 07:53:11 PM
Yesterday's game had 0-0 all over it until Schwarzer's mistake and Spurs didn't really have to do much more to get a very flattering scroreline. What was worrying though was that we could still be playing and we still wouldn't have scored. I can understand the set up - keep it tight in the middle and attack down the wings but both Dejagah and Frei were poor in my opinion. That was partly becasue we were so slow in getting the ball out to the wings that there was no opportunity to get moving with the ball before they were closed down. Senderos has limitations but it is harsh to blame him for yesterday's defeat! I think he is a decent back up to Hangeland but you are not going to get players of the quality of Hangeland wanting to sit on the bench all season!
Good sensible post that pretty well sums up proceedings.
coyw
Senderos is just a spectator as he was for all three Spurs goals.
Quote from: Peabody on December 02, 2012, 07:35:54 PM
If you cast your mind back to the summer of 2010. Roy Hodgson was covering the World Cup on BBC and in answer to a question said "I am looking forward to working with Phillipe" Definately signed by Hodgson, prior to his departure to Liverpool. As for performance, maybe its an age thing but I think that whilst they play for Fulham, every player should be encouraged, not villified and by the way, thats what I shall continue to do. I stand corrected, Hodgson it was. Any player that puts on a Fulham shirt should be supported. However, my opinion is that he is not good enough for a team trying to break into the top third of the premiership. We have 3 or 4 players that fall into that category. To be successful changes have to be made even if they appear to be a little harsh
I'm not going to vilify Senderos but the Arsenal Boo boys got at him because he was too slow before he ever came here. I was told that senderos was roys going away present. These players are getting a lot of money for being here and we pay money and we are entitled to an opinion as to whether they are good enough. Over a period of time players cover one anothers weakness's over the short term they don't. as they may not know what they are. I believe that had Reither stayed on the pitch we would have been ok. because Reither has got class. We had two poor players in Kelly and Senderos playing next to each other which is a recipe for disaster. I'm sorry to say these two are no good for a premier club. They would hold their own in the championship and that is where they belong.
I have stuck by Senderos but he was woeful on saturday.
Also no goals in the 3 games without Ruiz, just shows what he brings to the side, I hope he is back soon.
I agree with Peabody on this topic.
JBH, how many times were we saying that Baird was woeful a few years ago and that he would never be a Premiership player. Yeh ok, he was being played out of position at right back but he was regularly taken to the cleaners. Just look at him now. Very solid in midfield.
Look how Zamora was vilified at the beginning. He seemed slow and missed chance after chance. Row Z anyone ??? He went on to be brilliant for us. There are other examples.. ok Steve Marlet was the exception that confirms the rule.
I think the Senderos is a good player. Its just a question of whether we can afford the time and games for him to find form. Probably not. If we had enough cover, he could benefit from some loan time somewhere.
Can I also add to how strange we Football Fans are.
I said this in an earlier thread in relation to the treatment dished out to Clint Dempsey. Does anyone agree that there was an element of hypocracy shown with the appearence of Sean Davis at half time. Not so long ago, when Sean appeared for Tottenham against us, our Fans destroyed him in the first half and he was subbed, yet at half time on Saturday, he was rightly acclaimed as a hero. Can Clint look forward to the same double standards if he ever comes on as a half time guest? How strange we are.
i dont think we are strange, just being realistic.
We beat Norwich 5.0 at the start of the season and since then which team has gone backwards? Currently they are sitting above us having beaten the likes of united, spurs, sunderland etc. We are in a massive freefall without ruiz and brede
I prefer to look at as loss of form, not gone backwards, because as sure as nuts is nuts, our form will return and the likes of teams currently in form will go out of form. Now, that is realistic.
Well said Mr Peabody.
Doom... Gloom... Losing Berba in the transfer window... Jol will be out by the end of the season... We're going down with QPR... Naaaah, get a grip chaps. We'll pick up again soon.
Keep the faith.
COYW
Quote from: St Eve on December 02, 2012, 07:20:59 PM
it doesn't matter if it's his 3rd game of 30th game he is just not good enough. At one point he was tried for many games in place of Hughes and what a disaster that was. Yes we should ship Senderos out and if necessary we have Baird as cover. If my memory is correct Mr Ambitious signed him, but I could be wrong. It wasn't Jol
What disaster was that then?
At the end of the day, Senderos and Kelly are backup/squad players. They have only played this year when we have had injuries or suspensions. They are good enough backup players, not good enough as first team regulars (which they are not).
You cannot have 25 man squad filled with first team quality, we are not Utd or City.
Quote from: St Eve on December 02, 2012, 07:20:59 PM
it doesn't matter if it's his 3rd game of 30th game he is just not good enough. At one point he was tried for many games in place of Hughes and what a disaster that was. Yes we should ship Senderos out and if necessary we have Baird as cover. If my memory is correct Mr Ambitious signed him, but I could be wrong. It wasn't Jol
Actually it wasn't a disaster at all. He was fine. Probably made less mistakes per game than Hangeland has made this season. But he still got crucified. That old cliche "accident waiting to happen" kept getting trotted out with little justification. And he chipped in with a goal too.
But let's not let facts get in the way of a good scapegoating eh?
Quote from: Snibbo on December 03, 2012, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: St Eve on December 02, 2012, 07:20:59 PM
it doesn't matter if it's his 3rd game of 30th game he is just not good enough. At one point he was tried for many games in place of Hughes and what a disaster that was. Yes we should ship Senderos out and if necessary we have Baird as cover. If my memory is correct Mr Ambitious signed him, but I could be wrong. It wasn't Jol
Actually it wasn't a disaster at all. He was fine. Probably made less mistakes per game than Hangeland has made this season. But he still got crucified. That old cliche "accident waiting to happen" kept getting trotted out with little justification. And he chipped in with a goal too.
But let's not let facts get in the way of a good scapegoating eh?
+1
There is a pack mentality when it comes to players. One player is singled out for stick and then the rest follow popular opinion.
Walking towards the ground on Saturday, there was a young lad, about 8 years of age, saying to his dad "I hope Senderos mess up today as usual", cue dad launching into a 5 minute tirade about our centre back. You cannot tell me that the young lad has formed his opinion based on anything other than his dad's dislike of the player. I am sure he isn't the only one influenced and I am sure it is covering all ages too.
It's up to people how the feel about players, but as long as they show commitment and drive, then I'll get behind them.
Quote from: Rudolph on December 03, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
There is a pack mentality when it comes to players. One player is singled out for stick and then the rest follow popular opinion.
Walking towards the ground on Saturday, there was a young lad, about 8 years of age, saying to his dad "I hope Senderos mess up today as usual", cue dad launching into a 5 minute tirade about our centre back. You cannot tell me that the young lad has formed his opinion based on anything other than his dad's dislike of the player. I am sure he isn't the only one influenced and I am sure it is covering all ages too.
It's up to people how the feel about players, but as long as they show commitment and drive, then I'll get behind them.
Are you reindeer in disguise?
Quote from: epsomraver on December 03, 2012, 01:22:42 PM
Quote from: Rudolph on December 03, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
There is a pack mentality when it comes to players. One player is singled out for stick and then the rest follow popular opinion.
Walking towards the ground on Saturday, there was a young lad, about 8 years of age, saying to his dad "I hope Senderos mess up today as usual", cue dad launching into a 5 minute tirade about our centre back. You cannot tell me that the young lad has formed his opinion based on anything other than his dad's dislike of the player. I am sure he isn't the only one influenced and I am sure it is covering all ages too.
It's up to people how the feel about players, but as long as they show commitment and drive, then I'll get behind them.
Are you reindeer in disguise?
Ho Ho Ho.
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Guys have we learned nothing about sport in our lives? You have streaks of good form and streaks of bad form, that is true of any team in any sport. We are a very talented side that will learn to play together and get better and we will find our form again. PS: Norwich 5-0 is different from playing Tottenham to a 0-0 draw. We will get back to our scoring ways.
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Senderos had a poor game on Sat, but come on, no one player should be covering 35 yrds of the pitch on his own!
The
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on December 03, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Senderos had a poor game on Sat, but come on, no one player should be covering 35 yrds of the pitch on his own!
The shot was from 35 yards and if Senderos had been any where near the position he should have been on the pitch he should have had time to block it, Hangeland would have for certain.
That goal killed us as we were playing well until then.
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on December 03, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Senderos had a poor game on Sat, but come on, no one player should be covering 35 yrds of the pitch on his own!
You should know by now that Senderos is responsible for everything from original sin to the current euro crisis. Honestly, I don't know why we let him get away with it!
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
The first goal was Schwarzer's fault alone. It was from a long distance and he had it covered but let it through his hands.
Yes, Senderos was turned inside out for the second but why was nobody putting pressure on Defoe?
For the third similarly nobody was putting pressure on Dempsey. Senderos stepped forward to challenge when probably he should have turned to go with Defoe but that would have left Dempsey with even more space.
Yes, not a good game but the second and third goals were not purely individual errors.
You forgot to blame him for the quality of the pies.
Even im not going to stretch as far as saying Senderos should take any blame for the first goal. Although I did think Etuhu played a big part in it.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 03, 2012, 03:45:49 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
The first goal was Schwarzer's fault alone. It was from a long distance and he had it covered but let it through his hands.
Yes, Senderos was turned inside out for the second but why was nobody putting pressure on Defoe?
For the third similarly nobody was putting pressure on Dempsey. Senderos stepped forward to challenge when probably he should have turned to go with Defoe but that would have left Dempsey with even more space.
Yes, not a good game but the second and third goals were not purely individual errors.
You forgot to blame him for the quality of the pies.
The pies have much better content than Senderos. I bet he sold a few prime mortgages as well.
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 03:14:21 PM
The Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on December 03, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Senderos had a poor game on Sat, but come on, no one player should be covering 35 yrds of the pitch on his own!
The shot was from 35 yards and if Senderos had been any where near the position he should have been on the pitch he should have had time to block it, Hangeland would have for certain.
That goal killed us as we were playing well until then.
Complete and utter b*****ks
You have no idea what would have happened had Hangeland had been on the pitch because that is impossible. You could make an informed guess at best, but in this case, you have just blamed Senderos for no reason.
A shot from 35yrds should be dealt with by the goalkeeper or the two defensive midfielders shutting down the player.
I bet if the ball had cannoned off Senderos and into the net you would have said that Hangeland would have let Schwarzer deal with it.
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on December 03, 2012, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 03:14:21 PM
The Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on December 03, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on December 03, 2012, 02:50:47 PM
I read five reports of the match and they all rated Senderos at 3 or 4 and blamed his inactivity for the last two Spurs goals. The first goal went through a 35 yard path through and area of the pitch that Senderos should have been covering.
It is not just miserable fans it is the papers as well who rarely give any players a 3 out of 10 rating.
Complete and utter b*****ks
You have no idea what would have happened had Hangeland had been on the pitch because that is impossible. You could make an informed guess at best, but in this case, you have just blamed Senderos for no reason.
A shot from 35yrds should be dealt with by the goalkeeper or the two defensive midfielders shutting down the player.
I bet if the ball had cannoned off Senderos and into the net you would have said that Hangeland would have let Schwarzer deal with it.
pure GK mistake / ball moved a lot
at least when Schwarzers replacement chucks one in the net we can regularly state
complete and utter Bolats
Here is another example of how strange we Fans are. Earlier in this thread, someone said that they had read three, or was it four reports in the press about Saturdays game and they all seemed to support the view that Senderous was rubbish. Now, how many times have we rubbished newspaper reports on our game? answering myself, practically every game. I am not suggesting that PS did'nt have a good game but once again we see an example of were people try and support thier arguements with evidence from sources that every other week they would take the opposite track. No doubt about it, us Fans are a strange lot.
Quote from: Peabody on December 03, 2012, 06:11:58 PM
Here is another example of how strange we Fans are. Earlier in this thread, someone said that they had read three, or was it four reports in the press about Saturdays game and they all seemed to support the view that Senderous was rubbish. Now, how many times have we rubbished newspaper reports on our game? answering myself, practically every game. I am not suggesting that PS did'nt have a good game but once again we see an example of were people try and support thier arguements with evidence from sources that every other week they would take the opposite track. No doubt about it, us Fans are a strange lot.
The Observer, The Sunday Telegraph, The Sunday Times, The Mail on Sunday, Mondays Times and Telegraph all gave Senderos a rating for the game of 3 or 4. I cannot remember a rating so low before in any paper. That seems pretty strong evidence to me plus the evidence of my own eyes.
I am not saying you are wrong, just pointing out how strange Football Fans are. However, I cannot and will not agree that castigating a player who plays for your club is right.
Oh, and it wasn't "Mr. Ambition" who signed Senderos. It was Saint Roy.
I am intrigued by the notion that the first goal was Senderos's fault. I assume that had he blocked it on the way in, Mark would have had no reason to wake up and fall towards the ball.
I will acknowledge that Senderos kidnapped the Lindburg baby and used the name D.B. Cooper in an airborne robbery. Kelly, on the other hand, was the chap that attempted to bomb Parliament in early November every year and condemned Christ to be crucified. What he had against Roy Hodgson's son is beyond me, but there you go.
I'm not sure that's unique to football fans but I get the point. I think criticism of Senderos is somewhat justified though, not just on this season's showing but all of his showings.
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
Much of the criticism seems to be coming from those who, a few scant weeks ago, were confidently predicting that we were going to finish in the top four or six (note to pendants, I said "much"), so in all likelihood a lot of it is the result of reality crashing in on their view of the world. At least a small part of the problem with Senderos is that you can almost taste the desire from some of our fans for him to fail, just so they can say, "I told you so!" This must have some effect on him.
It is a strange way to support your team, but they will doubtless say that they pay their money and are entitled to wish failure on our team, and dropping Senderos will only propell some other poor sod into their sights.
Yes, I have to agree, football fans can be very strange people.
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
I think Dave is waiting in the wings...
Quote from: Burt on December 04, 2012, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
I think Dave is waiting in the wings...
Well after seeing the painting called The Scapegoat by William Holman Hunt yesterday at the Tate Britain, I would like to quote the following:
"On the day of atonement a goat would have it's horns wrapped with a red cloth, representing the sins of the community, and be driven off"
Quote from: Berserker on December 04, 2012, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: Burt on December 04, 2012, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
I think Dave is waiting in the wings...
Well after seeing the painting called The Scapegoat by William Holman Hunt yesterday at the Tate Britain, I would like to quote the following:
"On the day of atonement a goat would have it's horns wrapped with a red cloth, representing the sins of the community, and be driven off"
Like it!
Quote from: FFCAli on December 04, 2012, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: Berserker on December 04, 2012, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: Burt on December 04, 2012, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
I think Dave is waiting in the wings...
Well after seeing the painting called The Scapegoat by William Holman Hunt yesterday at the Tate Britain, I would like to quote the following:
"On the day of atonement a goat would have it's horns wrapped with a red cloth, representing the sins of the community, and be driven off"
Like it!
Blimey...all very biblical. Who will drive off the goat? Sounds like a job for Sidwell...
Quote from: Rupert on December 04, 2012, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: Peabody on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
It's easy to see that Phil has become the new scapegoat. I wonder who will be next. We Football Fans are really strange, are'nt we?
Much of the criticism seems to be coming from those who, a few scant weeks ago, were confidently predicting that we were going to finish in the top four or six (note to pendants, I said "much"), so in all likelihood a lot of it is the result of reality crashing in on their view of the world. At least a small part of the problem with Senderos is that you can almost taste the desire from some of our fans for him to fail, just so they can say, "I told you so!" This must have some effect on him.
It is a strange way to support your team, but they will doubtless say that they pay their money and are entitled to wish failure on our team, and dropping Senderos will only propell some other poor sod into their sights.
Yes, I have to agree, football fans can be very strange people.
I share these thoughts, especially after hearing the 8yo kid on his way to the game berating Senderos to the delight of his father.
I am sure this nervousness is felt by the players and the lad in question doesn't stand a chance either way. Still, big Phil gets paid well for doing his job and good luck to him. However forcing someone out of the door because their face doesn't fit is just plain wrong.
Chiming in~!
In my humble opinion I would replace Senderos with a future replacement for Hughes, and then find another strong tall boy to come in as a prodigy of Hangeland. I like the idea of having a more nimble and quicker Hughes type of player, along side a tall strong player.
I am not going to be overly critical of Senderos, but I feel there is a better option out there.
As for Kelly, he is not a bad player, but could be improved upon.
Schwarzer must be seriously looked at, there have been a number of goals that have been allowed this season that I for one feel another "decent" keeper would have stopped.
I have been saying for some time that we should be looking for at least two defenders, and one creative midfield player. However I keep seeing links with wingers and strikers~>?
