.....Berbatov is running the team at his pace but it's not a pace the team can keep up with. He is slowing the ball down too much!! Am I the only one seeing this???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the problem today was he was showing no movement up front and was wanting the ball to feet all the time! that's fine when you have others around him but I would say that only dejagah and kaka are mobile in our front 6, which made it hard to break down a team sitting behind the ball
I wonder if the pace and lack of speed in our game is down to some players not wanting a bollocking from Berbatov?
Are they looking too much for the perfect ball and not gambling enough with balls into the box or space.
Easiest route is always backwards and we seem to be doing that too much.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to play like Stoke, but last ten minutes showed the urgency we needed in the previous 80.
Quote from: MJG on January 05, 2013, 07:04:33 PM
I wonder if the pace and lack of speed in our game is down to some players not wanting a bollocking from Berbatov?
Are they looking too much for the perfect ball and not gambling enough with balls into the box or space.
Easiest route is always backwards and we seem to be doing that too much.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to play like Stoke, but last ten minutes showed the urgency we needed in the previous 80.
Posession is key for me. If you have the ball, then the oppoition can't score.
I do agree that we are not urgent enough at times, espically for the majority of the second half. First half I thought was good however. Not much to gamble on with Berbatov as a striker, because he doesnt actually get in the box that often.
Bugsy, I agree. We seemed to lack penetration all game.
Surely quick, quick passing is our best option for breaking through packed defences. That, or breaking on the oppostition at speed. Berbatov seems to receive the ball then turn backwards, slowing everything down. I accept that he can do stuff that barely any other player can do and slowing it down like this may benefit him, but does it benefit the team as whole?
Quote from: ddeuce on January 05, 2013, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: MJG on January 05, 2013, 07:04:33 PM
I wonder if the pace and lack of speed in our game is down to some players not wanting a bollocking from Berbatov?
Are they looking too much for the perfect ball and not gambling enough with balls into the box or space.
Easiest route is always backwards and we seem to be doing that too much.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to play like Stoke, but last ten minutes showed the urgency we needed in the previous 80.
Posession is key for me. If you have the ball, then the oppoition can't score.
I do agree that we are not urgent enough at times, espically for the majority of the second half. First half I thought was good however. Not much to gamble on with Berbatov as a striker, because he doesnt actually get in the box that often.
I agree possession is the key, but our movement(making angles, running into space) is as poor as when Cookie was in charge.
Also its fine having the ball for 60% of the time but you have to do something with it.
Quote from: MJG on January 05, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
Quote from: ddeuce on January 05, 2013, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: MJG on January 05, 2013, 07:04:33 PM
I wonder if the pace and lack of speed in our game is down to some players not wanting a bollocking from Berbatov?
Are they looking too much for the perfect ball and not gambling enough with balls into the box or space.
Easiest route is always backwards and we seem to be doing that too much.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to play like Stoke, but last ten minutes showed the urgency we needed in the previous 80.
Posession is key for me. If you have the ball, then the oppoition can't score.
I do agree that we are not urgent enough at times, espically for the majority of the second half. First half I thought was good however. Not much to gamble on with Berbatov as a striker, because he doesnt actually get in the box that often.
I agree possession is the key, but our movement(making angles, running into space) is as poor as when Cookie was in charge.
Also its fine having the ball for 60% of the time but you have to do something with it.
Yeah no movement too. I hope that gets worked on. Disappointing considering the talent we've got in that 3 behind the striker.
Piss poor from Berbatov today IMO.
I wish he'd stay up top and not crowd the midfield. He's getting in Ruiz' way and there's not enough movement or personnel ahead to create danger.
When Ronaldo was at Man Utd, Rooney and Tevez, not to mention Nani and Valencia, there's always a lot of speed and movement. He's used to that. He expects players to start moving once he gets the ball.
It does however begin with keeping possession all this. And after certain players left, there's where Fulham struggles
Don't get mad at him for wanting to keep the ball. The wingers and attacking midfielders, fullbacks...should start moving and attacking the space.
Sometimes I think they lack match fitness or are simply afraid to believe in their own abilities to keep the ball or make tha pass or shoot...
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:17:19 PM
When Ronaldo was at Man Utd, Rooney and Tevez, not to mention Nani and Valencia, there's always a lot of speed and movement. He's used to that. He expects players to start moving once he gets the ball.
It does however begin with keeping possession all this. And after certain players left, there's where Fulham struggles
Don't get mad at him for wanting to keep the ball. The wingers and attacking midfielders, fullbacks...should start moving and attacking the space.
Sometimes I think they lack match fitness or are simply afraid to believe in their own abilities to keep the ball or make tha pass or shoot...
but when you play one up front, sometimes that one has to try and score himself. wouldnt kill him to run at a defence and have a shot, hell he even looks good when he occasionally does try it.
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
well then berba signed for the wrong team. cos we will never play like that
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
simple...he's at the wrong club then.
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
The trouble with that is we do not have Iniesta, Messi, etc etc, he must know by now the type of players around him and they are just not capable of playing that way, i am afraid today the lazy tag looked like it was earned today, he just was not involved enough, he is a goal scorer but very rarely does he try and shoot.
Quote from: fulhamben on January 05, 2013, 07:23:40 PM
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
well then berba signed for the wrong team. cos we will never play like that
The system should be chosen according to the players available.
So far, I've seen the speedy players are Kaca, Frei, Hugo, the fullbacks....
I think Jol is pushing the only two options he's got, when you look at the personnel he has.
Either Berb-Ruiz and No typical CF. The threat comes from the wingers or Hugo up front to free space for berba and everyone else. When Rodallega is not on, and the wingers are slow, or do the midfield- not running from behind, or simply they have an off day.....expect to see what you do.
Perhaps you need a larger squad.
Sir Alex once said, that the team can "carry" up to 3 players, if those are not performing on the day. But I realsie your options are limited. Players can't be on their toes all season long. Expect a few off days from everyone. That's all
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 05, 2013, 07:23:40 PM
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
I think Berba wants to play like Barca do (who doesn't). So let me ask you. Who's Barca's centre forward?
...Exactly. They control the ball and everyone attacks, or drops back to recover the ball.
To some it looks like zombie passing, pass, pass, pass, pass....but it frustrates and exhausts the other team.
That's what berba wants. There's no need to play with a typical CF
well then berba signed for the wrong team. cos we will never play like that
The system should be chosen according to the players available.
So far, I've seen the speedy players are Kaca, Frei, Hugo, the fullbacks....
I think Jol is pushing the only two options he's got, when you look at the personnel he has.
Either Berb-Ruiz and No typical CF. The threat comes from the wingers or Hugo up front to free space for berba and everyone else. When Rodallega is not on, and the wingers are slow, or do the midfield- not running from behind, or simply they have an off day.....expect to see what you do.
Perhaps you need a larger squad.
Sir Alex once said, that the team can "carry" up to 3 players, if those are not performing on the day. But I realsie your options are limited. Players can't be on their toes all season long. Expect a few off days from everyone. That's all
very much doubt berba will ever need a day off :)
I've noticed a lot lately that the team has no direct drive when attacking. Kaca today in the first half showed a bit but playing the ball through Berba AND Ruiz, for all their sublime ability they both slow the game down. Sometimes, especially against WBA someone just needed to get hold of the ball and run directly at them with support either side but it usually ends up slowing down and letting the opposition group between the ball and goal.
Oh and Dejagha isn't the answer I'm
afraid. I thought with his strength he would be a player to do this but he gets a bit lost with the ball too often.
Quote from: Scrumpy on January 05, 2013, 07:09:04 PM
Bugsy, I agree. We seemed to lack penetration all game.
Surely quick, quick passing is our best option for breaking through packed defences. That, or breaking on the oppostition at speed. Berbatov seems to receive the ball then turn backwards, slowing everything down. I accept that he can do stuff that barely any other player can do and slowing it down like this may benefit him, but does it benefit the team as whole?
That depends. If we are winning, great, it's a really beneficial thing to have....but if we are losing or drawing and looking to go on for the 3 points or to the next round, like today, it can be really frustrating. As said before we doo need a plan B when games aren't going our way. I don't think Jol has the guts to sub Berba in fear of him having the hump...
i sort of agree about this posession argument to a point,it doe's wear out the opposition,but it also wears out the team playing those tactics. trying to make yourself available all the time requires as much energy as the team trying to deny you aforementioned space ,it kind of cancells itself out no ? also keep going backwards and sideways just to keep posession don't actually threaten the opposition much.....there thats my bit done
Berbatov was very isolated as Ruiz was generally playing very deep. We do much better when they keep close.
Quote from: A Humble Man on January 05, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
Berbatov was very isolated as Ruiz was generally playing very deep. We do much better when they keep close.
I think the opposite is true. We need one in midfield to supply the other further forward.
As it is they get in each others way and there's not enough happening nearer goal.
Ah to have a couple of free flowing mid fielders & forwards able to dribble round the opposition,run @ them & terrify them,one to score lots of goals,the other to score the occasional goal,provide lots of assists,make crucial tackles,support the team,help out the defence,etc etc
Oh hang on - we did have them but we sold them - DOH!
We didn't have any plan B to replace them either even though we knew that their contracts were virtually up
Still @ least we are in the January transfer window so we can do something - we can can't we?
Oh but our manager says it will all be fine because our injured players will be back soon & we only need one or two new faces because it's a bad time to buy...
I am a thunderstorm,I have lovers but I need warriors,I am disappointed because we deserved better,we should have scored more, - yada,yada - MJ please change the record
Anyway,well done Stockdale,one ray of sunshine in another poor performance & result
Great interview as well - he seems to show his heart is firmly with FFC so it's not all bad then
Focus on the other teams weaknesses & play to our strengths (but work out what these are fast!)
I'm interested in the ' Jol has lovers' in the plural comment!
It has to be said that our lack of pace going forward, Berbatov slowing everything down even more and our lack of penetration was said from day one. But because we went through a fine period of play people were ignored up to a point because things were going well.
Well they aint now and the problems still remain. Cannot see things changing and a struggle all season simply because the club don't want to gamble on spending money so are gambling on old players staying fit until younger players come through. When they will be good enough to sell to bigger teams.
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 05, 2013, 11:37:02 PM
It has to be said that our lack of pace going forward, Berbatov slowing everything down even more and our lack of penetration was said from day one. But because we went through a fine period of play people were ignored up to a point because things were going well.
Well they aint now and the problems still remain. Cannot see things changing and a struggle all season simply because the club don't want to gamble on spending money so are gambling on old players staying fit until younger players come through. When they will be good enough to sell to bigger teams.
It's disturbing to me that you and I keep agreeing about all things football. Thank god there's politics, or the world wouldn't need both of us.
Yep i'm concerned as i agree with both of you, well about Fulham football, probably not about the P word.
Quote from: HatterDon on January 05, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 05, 2013, 11:37:02 PM
It has to be said that our lack of pace going forward, Berbatov slowing everything down even more and our lack of penetration was said from day one. But because we went through a fine period of play people were ignored up to a point because things were going well.
Well they aint now and the problems still remain. Cannot see things changing and a struggle all season simply because the club don't want to gamble on spending money so are gambling on old players staying fit until younger players come through. When they will be good enough to sell to bigger teams.
It's disturbing to me that you and I keep agreeing about all things football.
:plus one: I'm finding the same.......what up?!
Quote from: RidgeRider on January 06, 2013, 03:19:14 AM
Quote from: HatterDon on January 05, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 05, 2013, 11:37:02 PM
It has to be said that our lack of pace going forward, Berbatov slowing everything down even more and our lack of penetration was said from day one. But because we went through a fine period of play people were ignored up to a point because things were going well.
Well they aint now and the problems still remain. Cannot see things changing and a struggle all season simply because the club don't want to gamble on spending money so are gambling on old players staying fit until younger players come through. When they will be good enough to sell to bigger teams.
It's disturbing to me that you and I keep agreeing about all things football.
:plus one: I'm finding the same.......what up?!
I know. Scary, right?
Quote from: AnotherVicHalomLoveChild on January 05, 2013, 10:34:52 PM
Ah to have a couple of free flowing mid fielders & forwards able to dribble round the opposition,run @ them & terrify them,one to score lots of goals,the other to score the occasional goal,provide lots of assists,make crucial tackles,support the team,help out the defence,etc etc
Oh hang on - we did have them but we sold them - DOH!
We didn't have any plan B to replace them either even though we knew that their contracts were virtually up
Still @ least we are in the January transfer window so we can do something - we can can't we?
Oh but our manager says it will all be fine because our injured players will be back soon & we only need one or two new faces because it's a bad time to buy...
I am a thunderstorm,I have lovers but I need warriors,I am disappointed because we deserved better,we should have scored more, - yada,yada - MJ please change the record
Anyway,well done Stockdale,one ray of sunshine in another poor performance & result
Great interview as well - he seems to show his heart is firmly with FFC so it's not all bad then
Focus on the other teams weaknesses & play to our strengths (but work out what these are fast!)
How many times does it need saying there was no choice with Dembele, he said he was staying then bam in come spurs with the buy out fee and off he goes, really commited to Fulham, he was here for one reason and one reason only to get to a "bigger" club, Dempsey made it perfectly clear he did not want to play for Fulham, so really not much choice for either of them but to let them go.
Quote from: alfie on January 06, 2013, 09:16:05 AM
Quote from: AnotherVicHalomLoveChild on January 05, 2013, 10:34:52 PM
Ah to have a couple of free flowing mid fielders & forwards able to dribble round the opposition,run @ them & terrify them,one to score lots of goals,the other to score the occasional goal,provide lots of assists,make crucial tackles,support the team,help out the defence,etc etc
Oh hang on - we did have them but we sold them - DOH!
We didn't have any plan B to replace them either even though we knew that their contracts were virtually up
Still @ least we are in the January transfer window so we can do something - we can can't we?
Oh but our manager says it will all be fine because our injured players will be back soon & we only need one or two new faces because it's a bad time to buy...
I am a thunderstorm,I have lovers but I need warriors,I am disappointed because we deserved better,we should have scored more, - yada,yada - MJ please change the record
Anyway,well done Stockdale,one ray of sunshine in another poor performance & result
Great interview as well - he seems to show his heart is firmly with FFC so it's not all bad then
Focus on the other teams weaknesses & play to our strengths (but work out what these are fast!)
How many times does it need saying there was no choice with Dembele, he said he was staying then bam in come spurs with the buy out fee and off he goes, really commited to Fulham, he was here for one reason and one reason only to get to a "bigger" club, Dempsey made it perfectly clear he did not want to play for Fulham, so really not much choice for either of them but to let them go.
Absolutely correct & I am full agreement with you Alfie
What I am trying to draw attention to is the fact that knowing this would happen (& risk getting nothing for the two players rather than £22m for sellling when we did) there was a massive failure by Jol & the Board to plan & acquire the D & D replacements
They are the ones who know the existing contract arrangements,buy out clauses & players "feelings" about staying or leaving
They have the scouting system & replacement planning in place
Allowing it to happen just @ & after the start of the season is appalling!
It should have been sorted 12 months before with suitable replacements already lined up & then we get funds to acquire them
Posters all over this board are suggesting mid field & forward additions who will add the approriate quality,not get in each others way,be creative,run @ the opposition etc etc
Fact was we had that in the two DD's & allowed them to disappear
Agreed it had to happen but why fail to plan for the impact?
No sensible employer would run a business like that,if they did then they would face the consequences
But the good news is we still have 3 weeks of January left to sort it - er we do don't we?
Risky to wait until the beautiful summer when there are loads of Bosman's & loan acquisitions to sign up (n.b.not my words!)
3 weeks & counting - we are not out of relegation danger just yet!
Quote from: TonyGilroy on January 05, 2013, 10:20:13 PM
Quote from: A Humble Man on January 05, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
Berbatov was very isolated as Ruiz was generally playing very deep. We do much better when they keep close.
I think the opposite is true. We need one in midfield to supply the other further forward.
As it is they get in each others way and there's not enough happening nearer goal.
Agree. The priority must surely be to get Berbatov forward where he can do what he built a reputation on, and get hold of a quality attacking midfielder to augment Ruiz, and make sure Berba gets service.
Quote from: AnotherVicHalomLoveChild on January 06, 2013, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: alfie on January 06, 2013, 09:16:05 AM
Quote from: AnotherVicHalomLoveChild on January 05, 2013, 10:34:52 PM
Ah to have a couple of free flowing mid fielders & forwards able to dribble round the opposition,run @ them & terrify them,one to score lots of goals,the other to score the occasional goal,provide lots of assists,make crucial tackles,support the team,help out the defence,etc etc
Oh hang on - we did have them but we sold them - DOH!
We didn't have any plan B to replace them either even though we knew that their contracts were virtually up
Still @ least we are in the January transfer window so we can do something - we can can't we?
Oh but our manager says it will all be fine because our injured players will be back soon & we only need one or two new faces because it's a bad time to buy...
I am a thunderstorm,I have lovers but I need warriors,I am disappointed because we deserved better,we should have scored more, - yada,yada - MJ please change the record
Anyway,well done Stockdale,one ray of sunshine in another poor performance & result
Great interview as well - he seems to show his heart is firmly with FFC so it's not all bad then
Focus on the other teams weaknesses & play to our strengths (but work out what these are fast!)
How many times does it need saying there was no choice with Dembele, he said he was staying then bam in come spurs with the buy out fee and off he goes, really commited to Fulham, he was here for one reason and one reason only to get to a "bigger" club, Dempsey made it perfectly clear he did not want to play for Fulham, so really not much choice for either of them but to let them go.
Absolutely correct & I am full agreement with you Alfie
What I am trying to draw attention to is the fact that knowing this would happen (& risk getting nothing for the two players rather than £22m for sellling when we did) there was a massive failure by Jol & the Board to plan & acquire the D & D replacements
They are the ones who know the existing contract arrangements,buy out clauses & players "feelings" about staying or leaving
They have the scouting system & replacement planning in place
Allowing it to happen just @ & after the start of the season is appalling!
It should have been sorted 12 months before with suitable replacements already lined up & then we get funds to acquire them
Posters all over this board are suggesting mid field & forward additions who will add the approriate quality,not get in each others way,be creative,run @ the opposition etc etc
Fact was we had that in the two DD's & allowed them to disappear
Agreed it had to happen but why fail to plan for the impact?
No sensible employer would run a business like that,if they did then they would face the consequences
But the good news is we still have 3 weeks of January left to sort it - er we do don't we?
Risky to wait until the beautiful summer when there are loads of Bosman's & loan acquisitions to sign up (n.b.not my words!)
3 weeks & counting - we are not out of relegation danger just yet!
A lot of good points Vic. Can I just mention that it takes as much effort to hit 2 keys 'a' and 't' as it does to hit 'shift' and '@'?! I am all for time-saving abbreviations, but this makes no sense to my small, logical mind. fp.gif
Let's be honest, this FA Cup thing has lost it's zing. The foreign players are as excited and up for it as many of the rest of us to whom it's become a sponsor's corporate wang. They expect to progress as far as the fifth round and then wonder what it was all about. They have no boyhood memories of scoring the winning goal at Wembley - through the jumpers and jackets.
They aren't going to break a leg for a foreign cup when it's the Prem they really want to play in. And the manager and board aren't going to want them to unless we have have a squad deep enough to cover. Plus the money's just not in it.
Most (PL) fans these days couldn't give a toss about this or any other non-European trophy any more until we're in the semi/final. It used to be the fans' cup. But that was before the people who started winning were each earning enough to pay for a house, with cash, every week.
It's gone. Let it go in peace and just remember the good old days when it actually meant something.
Quote from: Count Berbatov on January 05, 2013, 07:17:19 PM
When Ronaldo was at Man Utd, Rooney and Tevez, not to mention Nani and Valencia, there's always a lot of speed and movement. He's used to that. He expects players to start moving once he gets the ball.
It does however begin with keeping possession all this. And after certain players left, there's where Fulham struggles
Don't get mad at him for wanting to keep the ball. The wingers and attacking midfielders, fullbacks...should start moving and attacking the space.
Sometimes I think they lack match fitness or are simply afraid to believe in their own abilities to keep the ball or make tha pass or shoot...
I think you hit the nail on the head, Reither seems to be the only player willing to make runs who is confident he can get back in position if the ball does not come.
In this last few months all the players seem reluctant to commit to making runs or breaking out. We have pace in the team, certainly more than last year as you couldn't describe either Zamorra or Dempsey as lightning quick but none of the players seem to want to test their pace.
Earlier in the season we were breaking and finishing at speed I can only think its confidence which has been undermined by the amount of sloppy goals we have given away this season especially since the downturn in the results
We have become very defensive in outlook and reluctant to try the progressive pass for fear of it going wrong, though paradoxically we are happy to pump long balls to no one in particular.
Quote from: A Humble Man on January 06, 2013, 04:24:43 PM
We have become very defensive in outlook and reluctant to try the progressive pass for fear of it going wrong, though paradoxically we are happy to pump long balls to no one in particular.
A question for you, my good sir.
If the opposition doesn't have the ball, can they score?
