I see way too many people blaming Berbatov. WHY? He's been doing everything in his strength. Scored 14 goals, brought some class on the pitch.. Honestly without Berba we are relegated now. And you know it.. And don't start with the "Petric could have scored 14"..
It's just ungrateful towards him, he is the last person to blame.
Not responsible for horrible defense, clueless midfield and insecure finishing. He has done everything he could for us.
My point is - respect the man...
I'm sure that everyone respects him for his contribution to the team.
My issue is not that he has not done well enough.. it is that our other players are not good enough to succeed in the same team as him with any consistency, which we have seen.
He himself could tell you that, anyway.. you can see it several times every game when he gets frustrated that someone young and inexperienced like Kacaniklic can't pick out his run every time.
We are a mid-table team who has to work hard for every point. No match is a given. Therefore, we need players to work tirelessly and contribute in all areas, Berbatov won't do this.
There is no doubt Roda or Petric leading the line would have been disastrous.. but we need someone who fits in better..
Look at West Brom, they press hard and play very direct football and it has brought their squad, which lacks any incredible talent, great success.
NOTE: I don't blame Berbatov either and I know this post isn't exactly a direct response to what you're saying but I wanted to get it out.
Berbatov needed a forward to play alongside and one with a bit of pace. Petric was not even a question let alone an answer. Rodders was never given a chance, but looked ok when he was (just my opinion).
So Berbatov leading the line of him and only him didn't work that often. I said at the beginning of the season we needed a forward with Berbatov. Needless to say I still hold that opinion. Jols reluctance to play with Rodders even after last week makes me realise that Jol doesn't know best.
Berbatov is what he is. A player who likes to come deep. Shame nobody thought to go ahead of him.
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 12, 2013, 11:36:06 PM
Berbatov is what he is. A player who likes to come deep. Shame nobody thought to go ahead of him.
I think there's an attitude among some of our players that Berbatov and sometimes Ruiz should be able to take defenses on their own.
That's the only excuse I can give for no one making any movement.. all season.
Quote from: T.G. on May 12, 2013, 11:19:38 PM
I see way too many people blaming Berbatov. WHY? He's been doing everything in his strength. Scored 14 goals, brought some class on the pitch.. Honestly without Berba we are relegated now. And you know it.. And don't start with the "Petric could have scored 14"..
It's just ungrateful towards him, he is the last person to blame.
Not responsible for horrible defense, clueless midfield and insecure finishing. He has done everything he could for us.
My point is - respect the man...
1 - When we don't have the ball, which happens quite a bit to a mid table team in The Premiership, he does absolutely nothing defensively. We may as well have 10 men.
2 - When we try to break at speed, a method that many other teams use succesfully to score goals, he slows the ball up so much that it allows the other team to all get back into their defensive positions.
3 - He is so slow at getting back onside that he regularly stops the midfielders from playing the forward ball that they would like to.
4 - He sets a poor example to young players by giving the impression that you can succeed at the top level through talent alone. (He gets a day off when he scores a goal and he still smokes - what sort of example is that?)
.......and that's just off the top of my head in no time at all.
1 thing that has annoyed me all season is the my way or no way attitude that he and Ruiz seem to have (Ruiz not so often)....
shown today in the 45th +1 minute we got a freekick 40 yards out, Karagounis wanted to put the ball in the area however Berba stood 5 yards from him refusing to get in the area and was screaming at Karagounis to lay it short to Enoh who was under pressure and ofcourse was dispossesed....
Not always the most skilled have the right attitude or attributes for your team. i appreciate Daniel Sturridge's talents for eg but 1 thing that always lets him down and if/when he changes it he will be a better player - HE DOES NOT LIKE PASSING!!! yes today he gets away with it as they only required 2 goals to win but liverpool could have had an additional 3 or 4 goals if he was willing to put a goal on a plate for someone else.
My concern is how have we been undone so easily this season with meaningless 60 yard balls... 2day for the 1st goal and also against Reading....
I think the only complaint I have with him is that he could of done better. I don't think he's quite been at his best this year, but he's still been easily in the best 2 or 3 players in this side and on his day he's bee top class.
I don't buy the " he can't play with bad players argument " either. Makes no sense especially in the way he plays football.
Berbatov has been brilliant for us and quite possibly rescued our season almost single handedly. Jol has been brilliant too in securing such a deal with Fiorentina and Juventus odds on to get him.
The people who complain are the people who are used watching Andy Johnson chasing every lost cause or Brian McBride battling his way. Berbatov is a complete different kind of player and in my humble opinion he is possibly the classiest striker Fulham ever had. The only issue is that a team ina relegation dogfight cannot afford to have two players like Berbatov and Ruiz together on the pitch, they are both classy and all but they won't run for the team and let's face it there is a problem of compatibility between the two.
Villa without Benteke = Relegated
Fulham without Berbatov = Relegated
Sunderland without Fletcher = Relegated
Stats dont lie
My only real gripe is that he insists on coming deep to get the ball. Fair enough he has the talent to ping balls and play people in but by doing so we have no one upfront and always lose the ball. He essentially takes Ruiz out of the game and that's one of the reason why the two don't work as they just don't talk to each other on the pitch. Watching yesterday they hardly say a word to each other and you would think that to be successful those two must know each other inside out??
I cant deny the man has saved us and without him we would be worse off but I think next year we need someone to play alongside him to allow us to have an outlet up front when he drops deep, which he does brilliantly at times. That's my view on it.
Quote from: fulhamfever on May 13, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
Villa without Benteke = Relegated
Fulham without Berbatov = Relegated
Sunderland without Fletcher = Relegated
Fulham without Ruiz in that case - top 10
Stats dont lie
Fault? Our season started to go pear shaped when the two Dem's left at the end of the transfer window.
We then lost Diarra after a trip to play in the Africa Cup of Nations.
When we did eventually get going we lost Sidwell to injury and then 9 matches for indiscipline.
The final straw was Dejagah, who after slow start formed a good understanding with Riether. This was brought to an end as the result of a foul by Traore during the QPHa game - after which we only managed to get the one point against Villa, which will probably guarantee our survival this season!
S**t happens I guess.
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: fulhamfever on May 13, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
Villa without Benteke = Relegated
Fulham without Berbatov = Relegated
Sunderland without Fletcher = Relegated
Fulham without Ruiz in that case - top 10
Stats dont lie
I note that you have not bothered to provide any stats or other evidence. I guess this must be a personal opinion?
Work it out Roberty
Fletchers Goals have been the reason Sunderland are not lower in the league
http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=SUNDERLAND (http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=SUNDERLAND)
Berbatov's Goals have kept us in the Prem
http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=FULHAM (http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=FULHAM)
Bentekes Goals have kept Villa in the Prem
http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=ASTON%20VILLA (http://www.xscores.com/soccer/Results.jsp?sports=soccer&result=5&teamName=ASTON%20VILLA)
I don't think you could ever calculate how we would have done without Berbatov.
I appreciate the goals that he's scored, the guy truly is a wonderful striker, but the question has to be: what is the opportunity cost of that? The fact of the matter is that his presence has changed the dynamic of the team. Pre-Berbatov, everybody on the pitch knew their place in the team and on the pitch and because of this the link up play between defence/midfield/attack was excellent, fast, accurate and often ended with results.
Since Berbatov has joined, the dynamic has shifted so that he is the centre of the game and everyone has to try and play the ball to him at some point. This season we have lost the crossing, the pot-shots at goal from all angles and that dynamic team play that we had before.
Whether this would have been any different without Berbatov on the pitch is an argument that nobody could win, but these are also simple facts.
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
This seems to show that we let in more goals when Berbatov and Ruiz start as the main attackers.
Have I missed something?
Quote from: Roberty on May 13, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
This seems to show that we let in more goals when Berbatov and Ruiz start as the main attackers.
Have I missed something?
Shows we get less points, score less and conceided more. Where is the 1st line of defence??????
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
Well thanks for this. It seems as if the Berba,Ruiz partnership didn't happen as often as I thought. But it does confirm it didn't work as well as the alternative. Which IS what I thought. Thanks for taking the time to show this. The system didn't work. It is down to the manager again.
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 11:17:01 AM
Quote from: Roberty on May 13, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
This seems to show that we let in more goals when Berbatov and Ruiz start as the main attackers.
Have I missed something?
Shows we get less points, score less and conceided more. Where is the 1st line of defence??????
Hum - the Michael Jackson statue?
You can make stats say what you like and I am a critic of Berba for slowing the game down, not getting back on side quickly enough and looking lazy but you cannot deny his skill which is a joy to watch. This season has been disappointing due to losing the two dems when we did. Maybe the players we needed were not out there. Now though I feel that if we are to keep Berba we need to compliment him with other dominant players, so that he cannot have his way all the time. This close season needs to see a lot of changes at the club and depending on those changes we will stay up and have a top ten finish or go down. In a way I'm glad that we are where we are as a few points more would suggest that we had done ok which we clearly haven't
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 13, 2013, 11:19:06 AM
Quote from: Humbled on May 13, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
Games with Berba + Ruiz starting as the main attackers
Played 17.... 16 points 20 scored 33 conceided
Games with Berba OR Ruiz with a striker ahead of them includes games where Petric started with them (Chelsea at home) and when Rodders started as a striker NOT out wide (West Ham at home)
Played 19.... 24 points 27 scored 24 conceided
I didn't include west ham away as neither Berba or Ruiz STARTED!!
Well thanks for this. It seems as if the Berba,Ruiz partnership didn't happen as often as I thought. But it does confirm it didn't work as well as the alternative. Which IS what I thought. Thanks for taking the time to show this. The system didn't work. It is down to the manager again.
Nothing so flakey as statistics.
Yours lack the effect that the other 9 players had on the teams performance.
A fact for you - Dejagah - was injured in the QPHa match - after Berbatov scored his two goals
In matches since then the team has scored 4 goals - let in 14 - and got only one point against Villa
As they say - lies, dammed lies and statictics!
Quote from: Matt Inglis on May 12, 2013, 11:29:52 PM
I'm sure that everyone respects him for his contribution to the team.
My issue is not that he has not done well enough.. it is that our other players are not good enough to succeed in the same team as him with any consistency, which we have seen.
He himself could tell you that, anyway.. you can see it several times every game when he gets frustrated that someone young and inexperienced like Kacaniklic can't pick out his run every time.
We are a mid-table team who has to work hard for every point. No match is a given. Therefore, we need players to work tirelessly and contribute in all areas, Berbatov won't do this.
There is no doubt Roda or Petric leading the line would have been disastrous.. but we need someone who fits in better..
Look at West Brom, they press hard and play very direct football and it has brought their squad, which lacks any incredible talent, great success.
NOTE: I don't blame Berbatov either and I know this post isn't exactly a direct response to what you're saying but I wanted to get it out.
My feelings are the same
im not blaming Berba.... i just wish like Lighthouse we would put one or the other on the bench for a few games..... OR like the West Ham game move Ruiz out wide and put Berba and Rodders thru the middle that being sai Ruiz was still poor out there
i would prob keep Berba and drop the other untouchable
1st line of defence - attack and when Ruiz and most def Berba dont have the ball they will not work hard to get it again
I disagree having Rodders leand the line would have been a disaster but thats my opinion
