This is NOT a discussion about how Bryan and Berba can't play together (they can and were our top two chance creators last season) or how he's useless defensively (he's not: @Squawka: Bryan Ruiz was the best striker by Defensive Performance Score. He completed 88% of his tackles this season) so if you high jack my thread with these I will destroy you.
My main point is: lots of people keep mentioning how Ruiz was £10m+ and our most expensive player (as if that has anything to do with anything). Now was that not a media figure that Jol laughed off in an interview and confirmed it was closer to £8m?
Also, everyone says that another striker means Ruiz OR Berba behind.
Does anyone think there's a slim chance Jol will change his formation? Play Ruiz and Berba in behind a striker or Ruiz behind Berba + Another?
(This is not an invitation for you to tell me your preferred line up - including players that don't play for us or otherwise...) Just wondering if you think Jol may stray away from the vogue 4-2-3-1 we all know and love.
Proceed.
Whatever formation we play I think Bryan is going to be our best player next year, but i think we will go with 4-2-3-1 after everyone has a full preseason together to get it sorted. It is going to be a great season next season, optimismmm wooo!
Ruiz as a CM with Berba as the #10 and Rodallega up top might be work well if we stick with it for a few games rather than 5 minutes every 10 games.
However that would only work if both Ruiz and Berbatov release the ball faster and don't slow things too much. Also Ruiz will have to improve his awareness to avoid losing the ball too often in our own half when under pressure. On the defensive side he is already working well and quite often gets important interceptions and contrary to the wide-spread belief he actually wins tackles as well.
So quicker tempo, less trickery, more movement and it might all work even with our current players :P
Would still be happy if we add another midfielder and another striker though!
Well said ffcbulgaria - totally in agreement!
So can you confirm what I'm allowed to comment on with regards this posting?
It makes little sense to me when people say X and Y cannot play together particularly when they are our two most talented and intelligent players. Yes, sometimes they look less than the sum of the parts but they and the coaches need to keep working on the pairing because when they do click then we will really have something special.
Yes, Ruiz is better defensively than most give him credit for. He needs to play it earlier and simpler sometimes when he is deeper though because teams are targeting him with close marking.
Yes, Jol will be looking for a new formation. I think he will be trying to recreate that strong central midfield that we had with Diarra and Dembele that will allow our creative players more freedom. If we don't get another forward in then I can see us pushing Kacaniklic forward and allowing him with Berbatov and Ruiz to play flexibly as a front three.
ffcbulgaria hit the nail on the head. The issue was never having a competent holding player or (or lack thereof) alongside Ruiz - it was his lack or urgency when in possession. Players wanting more time on the ball than most others isn't something you can reverse by telling that person to 'speed up a bit'. I'm sure many hours were spent at Carrington with Juan Seba Veron trying the same method.
The only realistic way of combating dawdling is bulking up, but if Ruiz does that he could lose some of the traits that currently make him a fantastic player (see Joe Cole).
Quote from: EJL on June 14, 2013, 12:41:19 PM
ffcbulgaria hit the nail on the head. The issue was never having a competent holding player or (or lack thereof) alongside Ruiz - it was his lack or urgency when in possession. Players wanting more time on the ball than most others isn't something you can reverse by telling that person to 'speed up a bit'. I'm sure many hours were spent at Carrington with Juan Seba Veron trying the same method.
The only realistic way of combating dawdling is bulking up, but if Ruiz does that he could lose some of the traits that currently make him a fantastic player (see Joe Cole).
I think Ruiz bulked up for last season after his injury and that resulted in him not being knocked off the ball as much as in his first season. I would not like to see him bulk up much more.
I think that you can help him by saying keep it simple when lying deep: quick short passes to lay it off to a player in space rather than looking for the killer defence splitting pass. And when he is further forward, to say trust your instincts more and hit the ball earlier rather than touch, look up, touch, look up and finally pass. Berbatov and other strikers like Bent want to go on the first opportunity and therefore tend to get caught offside if there is a delay.
I would play Ruiz as a target man.
I'll make one comment. I do not want Ruiz as one of a central midfield two if it means we then play 2 other forwards, It would he absolute suicide.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on June 14, 2013, 12:28:56 PM
It makes little sense to me when people say X and Y cannot play together particularly when they are our two most talented and intelligent players. Yes, sometimes they look less than the sum of the parts but they and the coaches need to keep working on the pairing because when they do click then we will really have something special.
Yes, Ruiz is better defensively than most give him credit for. He needs to play it earlier and simpler sometimes when he is deeper though because teams are targeting him with close marking.
Yes, Jol will be looking for a new formation. I think he will be trying to recreate that strong central midfield that we had with Diarra and Dembele that will allow our creative players more freedom. If we don't get another forward in then I can see us pushing Kacaniklic forward and allowing him with Berbatov and Ruiz to play flexibly as a front three.
11 Berbas would get us relegated.... thats why people say x and y cant play together, u need a mix, u need players that compliment one another. these 2 are too similar and playing them that close and being the figure head of our attack means it reduces our attacking threat. just my opinion
not saying they both shouldnt play, if Ruiz can drop and play centre mid then ok (im not sure he can). Just feel we require a striker to play ahead of them.
like MJG i feel having Ruiz in CM is defensive suicide (in a 4.2.3.1) but i feel even stronger about him and berba being our figure head
Quote from: Humbled on June 14, 2013, 01:05:40 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on June 14, 2013, 12:28:56 PM
It makes little sense to me when people say X and Y cannot play together particularly when they are our two most talented and intelligent players. Yes, sometimes they look less than the sum of the parts but they and the coaches need to keep working on the pairing because when they do click then we will really have something special.
Yes, Ruiz is better defensively than most give him credit for. He needs to play it earlier and simpler sometimes when he is deeper though because teams are targeting him with close marking.
Yes, Jol will be looking for a new formation. I think he will be trying to recreate that strong central midfield that we had with Diarra and Dembele that will allow our creative players more freedom. If we don't get another forward in then I can see us pushing Kacaniklic forward and allowing him with Berbatov and Ruiz to play flexibly as a front three.
11 Berbas would get us relegated.... thats why people say x and y cant play together, u need a mix, u need players that compliment one another. these 2 are too similar and playing them that close and being the figure head of our attack means it reduces our attacking threat. just my opinion
not saying they both shouldnt play, if Ruiz can drop and play centre mid then ok (im not sure he can). Just feel we require a striker to play ahead of them.
like MJG i feel having Ruiz in CM is defensive suicide (in a 4.2.3.1) but i feel even stronger about him and berba being our figure head
I am not saying keep playing Berbatov and Ruiz as our two forwards. Maybe Ruiz needs to play deeper in front of the two CMs, the centre of the 3 in your 4.2.3.1 or maybe we need another forward, maybe Kacaniklic, Bent or Defoe.
But I am saying we need them both in the team. We are not trying to play with 11 Berbatovs (though I would like to see us try that in a pre-season game). We are just trying to fit our two best players in the same team.
Haven't I seen Berbatov take over in goal once?
Dunno about Berba, Petric saved a Peno tho lol!!
i dont think u can have Ruiz and Berba in a 4.2.3.1 as i dont think Ruiz is great wide or as one of the 2 deeper CM's..
i just really want a striker with berba or Ruiz just behind... if jol can fiot all 3 in and it works then happy days
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
would give it a go for pre season... im not sure he can play deep, as im not as convinced as you are with his defensive abilities and think a Huddlestone would suit better but this is what pre season is for
Quote from: Humbled on June 14, 2013, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
would give it a go for pre season... im not sure he can play deep, as im not as convinced as you are with his defensive abilities and think a Huddlestone would suit better but this is what pre season is for
i dont really want huddlestone tbh
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: Humbled on June 14, 2013, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
would give it a go for pre season... im not sure he can play deep, as im not as convinced as you are with his defensive abilities and think a Huddlestone would suit better but this is what pre season is for
i dont really want huddlestone tbh
A Huddlestone. Meaning that type of player as I have said previous it doesn't HAVE to be him just think His style in a centre midfield 2 would be better suited than having Ruiz's style in there.
Ruiz is a good player and the problem he had last season was a lot of the time when about to play the ball forward he looked up and found Berba offside or walking back from an offside position, this led to Ruiz having to go backwards which most of us hated or he hesitated and was caught in possession. Jol needs to sort this out as this is stifling Ruiz's talents and creativity
I like Ruiz he is going to be really good next season, him & Ruiz upfront will be dangerous with a bit more creativity behind them
Yes, shame we haven't got two of him though :005:
...and he was only £8mil, right?
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2013, 01:00:15 PM
I'll make one comment. I do not want Ruiz as one of a central midfield two if it means we then play 2 other forwards, It would he absolute suicide.
Ruiz is played on the wing in the last Costa Rica match I watched, not as a true winger, but allowed to drift in centrally.
I think he is best in this situation. He needs a strong overlapping back to cover and cross on his behalf. He is not good enough to be a dominant central midfielder, but he is creative, so playing him on the left or right, with an eye to move centrally, allows him the freedom to create without having too much responsibility for possession down the middle.
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
WE HAVE DONE. It didn't work, he simply isn't one. He's not comfortable there.
I'm sorry, but this has happened several times this season. We could feasibly try to convert him but he's a good finisher so that would be wasting his talents. He's not quick either.
I'm a huge Ruiz fan and a huge Berba fan. Jol bought both and I expect him to find a way to accommodate both. He is a manager that has managed big clubs and should know how to manage big players. This is not playing Ruiz on the wing or central midfield.
I will be hugely, hugely disappointed to see either leave. Angry even.
Quote from: Humbled on June 14, 2013, 06:01:08 PM
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: Humbled on June 14, 2013, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: KP_FFC on June 14, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
i going to keep saying it, we should try ruiz as the creative cm we need. that will allow us to partner berba with a pacey striker. iv always said ruiz is good defencivly and that we should try him there
would give it a go for pre season... im not sure he can play deep, as im not as convinced as you are with his defensive abilities and think a Huddlestone would suit better but this is what pre season is for
i dont really want huddlestone tbh
A Huddlestone. Meaning that type of player as I have said previous it doesn't HAVE to be him just think His style in a centre midfield 2 would be better suited than having Ruiz's style in there.
Not seen much of Huddlestone this season but he is the type of player we've been missing. A deep sitting creative midfielder. Unfortunately he's always been a slow player, but he may be the best we can afford, still a good player.
I had hoped that we'd keep Dembele, this made us so much more dynamic, there's no way we'll ever see a central midfielder of his like again.
To answer the OP, I think it could be a Christmas tree formation. Also, the problem are Berbatov and Ruiz. you know you have two great players, who enjoy possession, but no one to make the runs. That's why Dejagah was priceless. And Kaca is second best. I would say a 4-5-1 when defending and 4-2-4 with Kaca, Ruiz and Dejagah moving in support of Berbatov when attacking. Also worth is trying to play a straight 4-4-2, but your midfield isn't strong enough. That could change this transfer window
Also a diamond formation, like Chelsea at one point. My favorite. Two strikers and room for Ruiz behind them
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I agree with whoever said that Bryan will be our best player next year. He's been getting better and better in my eyes. We can play them together and when it works it works beautifully.. I just hope we can bring in some players that Jol is willing to sub on for them if things just aren't working out! For me, as with many others, it's not great having two players on the pitch who you know won't be taken off no matter how bad a day they are having.
