I am a fan of Jol but this is a big season for him there can be no excuses this is totally his squad now.
The players that have left the club since he took over
Schwarzer
Kelly
Baird
Davies
Etuhu
Murphy
Gera
Dembele
Dempsey
Johnson
Zamora
Am sure I've missed a few but they are the bigger names moved on, only Hughes , Hangeland & Duff remain.
This is totally his squad now
He didn't have any valid excuses for his stupid tactics / decisions last season!
Stockdale is still here, etheridge too...
Losing Dempsey & Dembele was a blow the I injury to Diarra was a killer, the last 8 games were really poor but we still finished a respectable 12th but this season we really need to push on
He needs a good start otherwise I can see him gone by Christmas. I can't see the new owner giving him many chances.
Wow
Started on Jol already !
Quote from: Riverside on July 26, 2013, 10:05:16 PM
Wow
Started on Jol already !
If you read my post I said I'm a fan of Jol, he has made a lot of changes at Fulham hopefully this season we will benefit from that
Quote from: JackyFulham90 on July 26, 2013, 10:31:01 PM
Quote from: Riverside on July 26, 2013, 10:05:16 PM
Wow
Started on Jol already !
If you read my post I said I'm a fan of Jol, he has made a lot of changes at Fulham hopefully this season we will benefit from that
The no excuses heading has a degree of threat to it :-)
JOL OUT
Sacking him half way through the season would be foolish, unless we're at the foot of the table points adrift, which we won't be.
Quote from: Aaron on July 26, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
JOL OUT
Why? Look at the talent he's brought to our club - Ruiz, Berbatov, Stekelenburg, Amorebieta. Could you ever have imagined such big names under Sparky or Roy?
We're on our way up, let's give him a chance to make things work with the right players.
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: Aaron on July 26, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
JOL OUT
Why? Look at the talent he's brought to our club - Ruiz, Berbatov, Stekelenburg, Amorebieta. Could you ever have imagined such big names under Sparky or Roy?
We're on our way up, let's give him a chance to make things work with the right players.
I
think he was joking...
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: Aaron on July 26, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
JOL OUT
Why? Look at the talent he's brought to our club - Ruiz, Berbatov, Stekelenburg, Amorebieta. Could you ever have imagined such big names under Sparky or Roy?
We're on our way up, let's give him a chance to make things work with the right players.
Yes, two still have to show they were worth buying and the other two are unknowns in the premiership, jacky is right he has no excuses this season
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: Aaron on July 26, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
JOL OUT
Why? Look at the talent he's brought to our club - Ruiz, Berbatov, Stekelenburg, Amorebieta. Could you ever have imagined such big names under Sparky or Roy?
We're on our way up, let's give him a chance to make things work with the right players.
Yes, two still have to show they were worth buying and the other two are unknowns in the premiership, jacky is right he has no excuses this season
Who are these two? Unknowns? They are all global stars. Neither Roy nor Hughes would've been able to lure them here.
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
You sre right they are unknowns in the premier, and ruiz really has to show his worth this season
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: Aaron on July 26, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
JOL OUT
Why? Look at the talent he's brought to our club - Ruiz, Berbatov, Stekelenburg, Amorebieta. Could you ever have imagined such big names under Sparky or Roy?
We're on our way up, let's give him a chance to make things work with the right players.
Yes, two still have to show they were worth buying and the other two are unknowns in the premiership, jacky is right he has no excuses this season
Well, we will know at the end of next season because Jol will be free to walk. Personally, I am proud that my Club gives Managers a fair and decent length of time to succeed rather than sack them left, right and centre.
Why would Roy or Hughes not be able to bring in these 'global stars'? Would they have been better at keeping the players we had? Open to debate.
Anyway the point is can Jol manage to bring in tactics this season that best manages the team he has? Last season it was disputed but I thought he was poor and his Fulham team often looked confused and uncertain. However this season he still has the excuse that we have just been taken over and have no idea if we will bring in players in time for Jol to make things happen.
Jol CAN make things happen. Last season he had to make do with loans and old men. We will see if Fulham can bring in the few players needed to make this Fulham side very good. We will see if Jol can make the team play to their strenghts.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.
Agree Beamer, as the thread says, this is all his now and no excuses, if he cannot get the side playing as a team as Roy did and we play attacking football then he should go.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
Why would Roy or Hughes not be able to bring in these 'global stars'? Would they have been better at keeping the players we had? Open to debate.
Anyway the point is can Jol manage to bring in tactics this season that best manages the team he has? Last season it was disputed but I thought he was poor and his Fulham team often looked confused and uncertain. However this season he still has the excuse that we have just been taken over and have no idea if we will bring in players in time for Jol to make things happen.
Jol CAN make things happen. Last season he had to make do with loans and old men. We will see if Fulham can bring in the few players needed to make this Fulham side very good. We will see if Jol can make the team play to their strenghts.
Well they didn't did they. Neither managers have been known for attracting big names (without paying money) whereas Jol has.
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.
Big names? who had heard of Amorebieta until we were linked with them?
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:21:53 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
Why would Roy or Hughes not be able to bring in these 'global stars'? Would they have been better at keeping the players we had? Open to debate.
Anyway the point is can Jol manage to bring in tactics this season that best manages the team he has? Last season it was disputed but I thought he was poor and his Fulham team often looked confused and uncertain. However this season he still has the excuse that we have just been taken over and have no idea if we will bring in players in time for Jol to make things happen.
Jol CAN make things happen. Last season he had to make do with loans and old men. We will see if Fulham can bring in the few players needed to make this Fulham side very good. We will see if Jol can make the team play to their strenghts.
Well they didn't did they. Neither managers have been known for attracting big names (without paying money) whereas Jol has.
Rubbish absolute rubbish Who has Jol brought in without paying money then? Who brought Moussa to Fulham, one of the best players to ever don a Fulham shirt?
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.
Big names? who had heard of Amorebieta until we were linked with them?
I think quite a lot of people who watch ANY football outside of the prem would have. Bilbao under Bielsa were reknowned for their attractive attacking style of play - especially after the world saw them demolish United over two legs in the Europa league.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.
Big names? who had heard of Amorebieta until we were linked with them?
Do some research. Big clubs were after him in previous years. Arsenal were linked last summer. Liverpool in January.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:21:53 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
Why would Roy or Hughes not be able to bring in these 'global stars'? Would they have been better at keeping the players we had? Open to debate.
Anyway the point is can Jol manage to bring in tactics this season that best manages the team he has? Last season it was disputed but I thought he was poor and his Fulham team often looked confused and uncertain. However this season he still has the excuse that we have just been taken over and have no idea if we will bring in players in time for Jol to make things happen.
Jol CAN make things happen. Last season he had to make do with loans and old men. We will see if Fulham can bring in the few players needed to make this Fulham side very good. We will see if Jol can make the team play to their strenghts.
Well they didn't did they. Neither managers have been known for attracting big names (without paying money) whereas Jol has.
Rubbish absolute rubbish Who has Jol brought in without paying money then? Who brought Moussa to Fulham, one of the best players to ever don a Fulham shirt?
Moussa probably the only non-Jol example of a world class player to be brought in under Mark - and he hardly set the world alight until Jol moved him to a deeper position.
As for who Jol's brought in - Riether, Berbatov, Petric, Karagounis and Rodders for 5 mil. They've all done a job by keeping us in the prem.
You obviously didn't watch his first game when he came on against Man U? his fantastic play in the Europa league he had the talent way before Jol moved him.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:21:53 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:17:00 PM
Why would Roy or Hughes not be able to bring in these 'global stars'? Would they have been better at keeping the players we had? Open to debate.
Anyway the point is can Jol manage to bring in tactics this season that best manages the team he has? Last season it was disputed but I thought he was poor and his Fulham team often looked confused and uncertain. However this season he still has the excuse that we have just been taken over and have no idea if we will bring in players in time for Jol to make things happen.
Jol CAN make things happen. Last season he had to make do with loans and old men. We will see if Fulham can bring in the few players needed to make this Fulham side very good. We will see if Jol can make the team play to their strenghts.
Well they didn't did they. Neither managers have been known for attracting big names (without paying money) whereas Jol has.
Rubbish absolute rubbish Who has Jol brought in without paying money then? Who brought Moussa to Fulham, one of the best players to ever don a Fulham shirt?
I poorly elucidated my thoughts there. What I meant was that neither manager had a reputation for attracting big name players through mostly due to their own reputation. Hufges signed big players at Man City but Man City paid very well.
Jol got Berba for example on a fraction of his Man Utd wages.
By the way Dembele wasn't a big name before Hughes brought him here, so the comparison is irrelevant.
Kahn will give him the season unless he spends bid this summer.
Re dembele and Dempsey they were the 2 he could not control in as far as it was out of his hands. Dembele had a release clause and Dempsey pissed of big mo allegedly. The rest he has moved on, some I would say at the right time
Oh of course Ferguson was desperate to hang on to his top player! 4th in the pecking order?How do you know what wages he is on? the club never release any details like that, it is all press speculation.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:33:42 PM
You obviously didn't watch his first game when he came on against Man U? his fantastic play in the Europa league he had the talent way before Jol moved him.
Sorry but I feel like you're really nit picking here. Clearly he's always been a very talented player - but the point was that Jol gas brought us higher quality players than we've had before. Apart from Moussa - who had up until Jol's tenure been a striker who did not score goals - I would say that this is true.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:36:48 PM
Oh of course Ferguson was desperate to hang on to his top player! 4th in the pecking order?How do you know what wages he is on? the club never release any details like that, it is all press speculation.
Oh come off it. This is one of the richest clubs in the world and he was first choice for quite a while, likely to have been on huge wages.
We beat off competition from big clubs to sign him and he made it clear it was working with Jol that brought him here.
I will honour my promise not to be critical of Jol until Christmas. After all he hasn't actually done anything yet. We have played the same way in friendly games but now we may bring in players of a better calibre.
However making comments that Jol attracts a better class of player than our other managers has yet to be proved. Otherwise we have to say he has fallen out with a few as well. But then there is always excuses for Jol by those who don't see anything wrong with the dullest of seasons we had to endure last year or put it down to losing players that was out of his control.
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
I will honour my promise not to be critical of Jol until Christmas. After all he hasn't actually done anything yet. We have played the same way in friendly games but now we may bring in players of a better calibre.
However making comments that Jol attracts a better class of player than our other managers has yet to be proved. Otherwise we have to say he has fallen out with a few as well. But then there is always excuses for Jol by those who don't see anything wrong with the dullest of seasons we had to endure last year or put it down to losing players that was out of his control.
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
I never talked about the class of player, merely the reputation of player. It's hard to dispute we have a team of more globally renowned players than we did with those managers, or indeed any that mabaged us in the PL.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
I will honour my promise not to be critical of Jol until Christmas. After all he hasn't actually done anything yet. We have played the same way in friendly games but now we may bring in players of a better calibre.
However making comments that Jol attracts a better class of player than our other managers has yet to be proved. Otherwise we have to say he has fallen out with a few as well. But then there is always excuses for Jol by those who don't see anything wrong with the dullest of seasons we had to endure last year or put it down to losing players that was out of his control.
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Wait and see what happens! It would be the logical and reasoned thing to do wouldn't it. Good post sir.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Quite. But as a regular 'away' follower I have to say that this Jol team is far, far better to watch than any of Roy's teams. Hughes was better than Roy, but Jol's team have been the best to watch away from home, without doubt. Conversely, he has messed up big time at home on occasions.
Quote from: Scrumpy on July 26, 2013, 11:54:30 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Quite. But as a regular 'away' follower I have to say that this Jol team is far, far better to watch than any of Roy's teams. Hughes was better than Roy, but Jol's team have been the best to watch away from home, without doubt. Conversely, he has messed up big time at home on occasions.
You shock me. I haven't been to an away game and only watched streams. But I find watching streams of water far better than Jols team away. There were whole matches away we never had an effort or shot on goal. Still if nothing else Jol does devide the fans.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 12:10:19 AM
Quote from: Scrumpy on July 26, 2013, 11:54:30 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Quite. But as a regular 'away' follower I have to say that this Jol team is far, far better to watch than any of Roy's teams. Hughes was better than Roy, but Jol's team have been the best to watch away from home, without doubt. Conversely, he has messed up big time at home on occasions.
You shock me. I haven't been to an away game and only watched streams. But I find watching streams of water far better than Jols team away. There were whole matches away we never had an effort or shot on goal. Still if nothing else Jol does devide the fans.
Norwich away last season, and I've seen some drab performances in my time as a Fulham fan, believe me. That game is up there with the best and still to this day, I can't believe how we didn't come away with 3 points. If ever there was a team on the day that were there for the taking, it was Norwich. Some of the most negative, defensive, boring football I've ever witnessed.
Quote from: Admin on July 27, 2013, 12:18:03 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 12:10:19 AM
Quote from: Scrumpy on July 26, 2013, 11:54:30 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Quite. But as a regular 'away' follower I have to say that this Jol team is far, far better to watch than any of Roy's teams. Hughes was better than Roy, but Jol's team have been the best to watch away from home, without doubt. Conversely, he has messed up big time at home on occasions.
You shock me. I haven't been to an away game and only watched streams. But I find watching streams of water far better than Jols team away. There were whole matches away we never had an effort or shot on goal. Still if nothing else Jol does devide the fans.
Norwich away last season, and I've seen some drab performances in my time as a Fulham fan, believe me. That game is up there with the best and still to this day, I can't believe how we didn't come away with 3 points. If ever there was a team on the day that were there for the taking, it was Norwich. Some of the most negative, defensive, boring football I've ever witnessed.
Ah yeah. I'd forgotten that one! That was truly awful. Still, apart from Norwich away, I have to say that this Jol team.............. :005:
If there is no improvement in football in the first two months, Jol will be gone. I don't think Khan will be taking any poo from him.
If there is a transfer embargo and Jol can't any more new players i expect he'll go himself. After last summers tranfer debuncale with Dembele and Dempsey, then having to make do with all the loans in the Jan window, i doubt he'll put up with the club Fxxxxxx up again.
He would leave fingernail marks on his office door! where would he go? who would want him?
Quote from: epsomraver on July 27, 2013, 10:06:13 AM
He would leave fingernail marks on his office door! where would he go? who would want him?
.................and the odd bite mark
What's the point of attracting big name players if they don't perform? Roy may not have attracted the big names but the team still performed exceptionally well without them, much better than we performed last season.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 26, 2013, 11:47:11 PM
I will honour my promise not to be critical of Jol until Christmas. After all he hasn't actually done anything yet. We have played the same way in friendly games but now we may bring in players of a better calibre.
However making comments that Jol attracts a better class of player than our other managers has yet to be proved. Otherwise we have to say he has fallen out with a few as well. But then there is always excuses for Jol by those who don't see anything wrong with the dullest of seasons we had to endure last year or put it down to losing players that was out of his control.
So the point still is this. Jol has been with us for a few seasons. I haven't enjoyed his style of football even in the season before last. I hope Jol manages to bring a spark to the side and actually attack sides this year. With the addition of one or two players he may be able to. But as we have learned many times before. Big names from abroad do not ALWAYS make it in the Prem. So let's wait and see.
Re the opening line ................. a tenner says no chance of that happening. Or, in aid of FoF funds a tenner from whoever capitulates first. I made my point in letters 35m high on an Azorean beach but I doubt anyone will take any notice.
I remember the Norwich away game. Voted the worst game since they played Walsall about a decade before by their fans. I wonder if that's yet another trophy or just a certificate?
Quote from: Brown@FFC on July 27, 2013, 12:53:42 AM
If there is no improvement in football in the first two months, Jol will be gone. I don't think Khan will be taking any sh1t from him.
Would be totally foolish my Khan. Needs at least until January to even evaluate things under a new owner. I hope we offer him a new deal.
just what has a new owner got to do with how we play? oh yes, another excuse for Jol to roll out when we lose yet again!
Roy was a great organiser and made us far more difficult to beat, but I don't think we would have seen a Dembele or a Berbatov under his stewardship.
Quote from: kiwiwaka on July 27, 2013, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Brown@FFC on July 27, 2013, 12:53:42 AM
If there is no improvement in football in the first two months, Jol will be gone. I don't think Khan will be taking any sh1t from him.
Would be totally foolish my Khan. Needs at least until January to even evaluate things under a new owner. I hope we offer him a new deal.
After the football we played most of last season, I'm still not happy with Jol, however, we must sign some more players, just 2 are needed, and if we get them, hopefully Osvaldo and Gargano, we should see a improvement in football.
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.
I think your find Jol has plenty of excuses when needed. None involving him of course.
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.
I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?
Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Of course you should listen. Of course you should respond politely. Of course there isn't one truth on all matters. Of course some matters will have to be opinion because, for example, there are no agreed measures for determining that one player is better than another or that a manager is good or bad.
However, if an opinion is proclaimed on the basis of something that can be shown to be incorrect or when the argument does not make sense then this needs to be pointed out rather than `respected'.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Truth is only propaganda when it is used unjustifiably. If something is indeed true it is undeniable.
Whether he will have any excuses remains to be seen, if there's an injury crisis or god forbid we do get transfer sanctions against us there's a ready made excuse.
However if we add more players then it will be his own team and he has to take responsibility for that. Khan would do well to leave the footballing decisions to footballing people though and not succumb to temptation, i.e. sacking him within a few months.
Jol will have an excuse if he is given no money in the remainder of this transfer window because even his harshest critics would find it hard to justify that the losses from midfield need to be replaced.
p.s. of course I don't think we will be in this situation but it is one scenario where Jol would have a fair excuse
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 12:18:11 AM
Jol will have an excuse if he is given no money in the remainder of this transfer window because even his harshest critics would find it hard to justify that the losses from midfield need to be replaced.
p.s. of course I don't think we will be in this situation but it is one scenario where Jol would have a fair excuse
Like last season when he was not really given much money to spend and had to do with loan deals!!!!
Quote from: The Moose on July 27, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Truth is only propaganda when it is used unjustifiably. If something is indeed true it is undeniable.
But all truth in deniable. Religion, politics, sexual orientation are all true to people who will fight and die for their truth. They will die because other people have a different truth and will fight and die for their truth. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars etc. Yes I know I have gone off topic a shade. But I am true to myself :Get Coat gif:
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:32:43 AM
Quote from: The Moose on July 27, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Truth is only propaganda when it is used unjustifiably. If something is indeed true it is undeniable.
But all truth in deniable. Religion, politics, sexual orientation are all true to people who will fight and die for their truth. They will die because other people have a different truth and will fight and die for their truth. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars etc. Yes I know I have gone off topic a shade. But I am true to myself :Get Coat gif:
What kind of truths do you mean? To me all of those things are about beliefs rather than truths. Truths are scientific and objective.
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 26, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on July 26, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Since when has Stekelenburg,or Amorebieta played in the Premiership? so many are so good in European leagues, Ruiz is a prime example and then struggle as Ruiz still does with the pace and the physical game of the top flight.Have you actually seen either of them play?
Whether they've played in the PL or not is besides the point entirely. The point is they are big names.
And yes I've seen them play. Not in the PL of course.
Big names? who had heard of Amorebieta until we were linked with them?
I certainly had, I watch a lot of la liga though he didn't play much last season through injury. He looks solid.
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 12:52:33 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:32:43 AM
Quote from: The Moose on July 27, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 27, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
One mans truth is just good propaganda. Unless truth is undeniable then we would all believe in the same truth. But we don't. Listening to people who have opinions and desires that are alien to us is the only way we will understand why people want to kill us.
In football truth is whoever you support. I don't have to agree with you but I should be able to communicate with you. If you only believe in one truth you have to know there are several versions of it, depending on where you stand. Stand in the World or sit in a football ground.
Truth is only propaganda when it is used unjustifiably. If something is indeed true it is undeniable.
But all truth in deniable. Religion, politics, sexual orientation are all true to people who will fight and die for their truth. They will die because other people have a different truth and will fight and die for their truth. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars etc. Yes I know I have gone off topic a shade. But I am true to myself :Get Coat gif:
What kind of truths do you mean? To me all of those things are about beliefs rather than truths. Truths are scientific and objective.
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.
I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?
Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.
How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .
And at next weeks book club, we will be discussing George Orwells '1984', although there will probably be less to discuss on the subject of truth and morality!! :dead horse:
Anyway, I agree that this is Jol's squad now, so no more excuses.
Quote from: alfie on July 28, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.
I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?
Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.
How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .
I am more than happy to make clear that I am not associating your views with any of these bad people. I did not intend a personal attack on you. I am sorry that you have been upset.
I was extending and exaggerating to make a general point about `respect' which I have noticed is abused by some on this forum to say "how dare you criticise my opinion".
I agree with your points about the views of some about Jol and of Roy (although in Roy's defence I am sure that you will accept he was building a team up from a bad place on little money. It might have changed if he had stayed longer). Yes, some people will never like Jol.
My point though is if posters start making false points to back their argument or abuse logic then we should not `respect' their arguments but should correct them. If it is about opinions then counter-arguments are opinions too.
on the respect for opinion. Yes of course you should respect someone elses opinion. Disagree as much as you like and put your view over but dont ridicule or abuse somebody while doing so. Simple. We can all live happily and support the team that way.
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
Well this has turned into a bizarre conversation...
I think it is fair to let Jol continue until January, then re-evaluate. No need for rash decisions though, don't want to unsettle the squad.
Quote from: alexbishop on July 28, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
Well this has turned into a bizarre conversation...
I think it is fair to let Jol continue until January, then re-evaluate. No need for rash decisions though, don't want to unsettle the squad.
Not really. It was developing into another Jol supporters v Jol Doubters. We have these every blimmin week. So to let the thread grow it became a belief versus truth thread. Mkes perfect sense to me. Honest and true.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 09:26:49 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 28, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 27, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
It does not mater one little bit what Jol does, i am afraid on here some people will never change their attitudes, i never liked the style of play that Roy employed, in my opinion he was and is still all about defense, but it did not mean he should not be here because i did not like it. Still it is all and should be all about opinions, and all opinion whether you agree with them or not should and MUST be respected.
I know that this is some kind of sacred mantra for some on here but, with all respect, are all opinions to be respected? Hitler's? Apartheid's? Those of your religious fanatic of choice? Those who wish to put down groups in our society such as women?
Similarly opinions about football ought to be justifiable: the assumptions on which they are based need to be true and the arguments sound. If either of these are not the case then they ought to be challenged. We need less respect for opinions and more for truth.
How dare you associate my comments with Hitler, religion or the treatment of women, i find it quite offensive that you have done this, it is quite clear i was talking about the attitude towards Jol and the opinions of him and his football. I would like it sir if you would kindly retract your comments .
I am more than happy to make clear that I am not associating your views with any of these bad people. I did not intend a personal attack on you. I am sorry that you have been upset.
I was extending and exaggerating to make a general point about `respect' which I have noticed is abused by some on this forum to say "how dare you criticise my opinion".
I agree with your points about the views of some about Jol and of Roy (although in Roy's defence I am sure that you will accept he was building a team up from a bad place on little money. It might have changed if he had stayed longer). Yes, some people will never like Jol.
My point though is if posters start making false points to back their argument or abuse logic then we should not `respect' their arguments but should correct them. If it is about opinions then counter-arguments are opinions too.
Fair enough thanks.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
What are you talking about?
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
What are you talking about?
If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
What are you talking about?
If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.
Truth as a concept is objective, it's the means of measuring it that are false. Everyone seems to cherry pick stats to fit their own aims. Only hard science can be trusted to identify truths.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: The Moose on July 28, 2013, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 28, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 28, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
"One mans truth is just good propaganda"? "In football truth is whoever you support"? "But all truth in deniable"?
I'm with Moose. Let's keep it real. If you believe it, it's a belief. If it is true there will be convincing evidence for it.
So if you can be convinced a belief is true than it is true. Which is why Hitler could do what he did and we still have fanatics and we still have many different 'true' religions. Let's keep it real. It must be true. I am convinced the evidence is there. What you believe no longer matters as I am not convinced by your evidence. So only what I believe must be true.
Something evil this way comes.
No, convincing yourself that something is true does not make it true.
Yes it does. I believe that and its true.
What are you talking about?
If you really cannot understand this simple concept than read 1984 by George Orwell. If you have read it. Have you no idea what it was about? I will say no more. This simple debate is the first time I have been scared of and for my fellow posters.
This really is pretentious and pompous nonsense. Not at all like the normal stuff from Lighthouse.
This is entertaining. Lighthouse has done well.
getting back to the main question...
-They are a good team – not the best team in the Bundesliga – but normally they play at home and they are good (finished 13th last season and lost a number of pre season games)
- it was probably our first real serious test (well the 3 games in CR were just kick abouts then)
-Berbatov was good, but he can't do everything (was he?, well get some help, whats was Ruiz doing?)
-Sometimes we can't play the short balls in midfield because it puts you under pressure (WHY?)
-since Clint [Dempsey] left we do not have enough goals in us (Shut up about Dempsey and its a fact we scored more lge goals last season than the season before)
-Today we looked a bit rusty from the start (we just had 3 games and some players played a LOT more than others. Mix the team round then)
:plus one: Lot of sense there. Away travel this season anyone?
