I would like to know from the fans, who don't want Jol out, why they believe so?
apart from fear of change?
Quote from: WhiteJC on September 16, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
apart from fear of change?
Yeah, no excuse that there isn't anyone available that can change it. Which is wrong, as a new manager would change it.
Perhaps if you were'nt so aggressive and we could have a reasonable debate, then you may get more responses
Because it would make things worse. There is no guarantee that someone could come in and magically change everything.
Done to death but:-
He's achieved two mid table finishes.
He's introduced serious talent this summer that needs time.
It's very early in the season.
He's had financial constraints to deal with
Things aren't nearly as bad as some people seem to think.
All change carries risk and the idea that anyone would do better is nonsense. The people available would all be unemployed and/or untried in management and/or untried in management in this country.
If things get worse Jol will probably get sacked towards the end of this year if relegation seems likely or in the summer when we will have a much wider choice of replacements plus an owner who had had a proper opportunity to assess the situation.
There are multiple reasons I would like Martin Jol to stay as manager...
1. He has not had a settled team the whole time he has been here.
2. He has brought in more talent than any other Fulham manager could do.
3. Sacking a manager in the middle of the season rarely goes well. Roy Hodgson being the exception. Case in point, Harry Redknapp, who everyone would think is a pretty good manager.
4. I think he has the experience to come back and have us playing proper football.
5. Berba wants to play for him. Taarabt wants to play for him.
6. If we sack Jol, it will take another manager time to acclimate to Fulham and the players. With all the lets say personalities in the team, could they handle it??
7. Who else is better? He is an experienced coach. Yes, i understand we are playing dire but I want to give him time. The grass is rarely ever greener on the other side...
8. And most of all - WE ARE 4 GAMES INTO THE SEASON! 4. 4. 4. 4. Did I say 4?! The management will not sack a coach after 4 games. To the responses of "how long will we wait then if we are in relegation spots." I would say 19 games. We lost games to Arsenal at home and Newcastle away which i hate to say it, happens almost every year... We dominated West Brom and should have scored 5 on them. 3 goals were disallowed for offsides.
Basically now is not the time.
If we were going to make a change it should have been at the end of last season.
The next opportunity will be before the next transfer window.
In the mean time I will be cheering Jol and the team in the hope that we will be in the top 10 by Xmas.
I am sure that this is not going to suit the vociferous posters on this matter, but I see no point in booing or hoping the team will lose just to have a manager replaced.
Quote from: Brown@FFC on September 16, 2013, 02:11:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteJC on September 16, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
apart from fear of change?
Yeah, no excuse that there isn't anyone available that can change it. Which is wrong, as a new manager would change it.
You wanted to hear from people who did not want to change - you are posting on the wrong thread.
There are a few reasons why I would not like to see a change;
1) It's early days and we have a few new players still bonding.
2) I can't think of any better manager available who would come to us.
3) It would cost us (as a club) a fortune when the new manager wanted to get in his own playing staff, whilst paying off the players he does not like.
If this needs to happen, it needs to happen at the end of the season.
Quote from: DukeTyrion on September 16, 2013, 02:39:30 PM
There are a few reasons why I would not like to see a change;
1) It's early days and we have a few new players still bonding.
2) I can't think of any better manager available who would come to us.
3) It would cost us (as a club) a fortune when the new manager wanted to get in his own playing staff, whilst paying off the players he does not like.
If this needs to happen, it needs to happen at the end of the season.
:plus one: on #3, never thought of that!
Quote from: Brown@FFC on September 16, 2013, 02:11:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteJC on September 16, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
apart from fear of change?
Yeah, no excuse that there isn't anyone available that can change it. Which is wrong, as a new manager would change it.
You know this ??
It's party conference season.
Change is always the buzzword. They offer change. We want change because things are bad.
What they don't tell you is that the change they offer will nearly always make things worse.
Now this is the thread I have wanted to see for a while, a debate from the supporters of Jol who want him to stay.
Whilst I don't agree with some of the comments above, it is still refreshing to have a more reasoned debate, then all the bickering that has been going on lately.
Whilst I am in the Jol out camp, I still appreciate, and as I mentioned in an earlier post admire the optimism that many of my fellow suppprters share. Unfortunately I don't share your optimism, but if we all had the same views.... Life would be dull
Quote from: Deanothefulhamfan on September 16, 2013, 04:29:10 PM
Now this is the thread I have wanted to see for a while, a debate from the supporters of Jol who want him to stay.
Whilst I don't agree with some of the comments above, it is still refreshing to have a more reasoned debate, then all the bickering that has been going on lately.
Whilst I am in the Jol out camp, I still appreciate, and as I mentioned in an earlier post admire the optimism that many of my fellow suppprters share. Unfortunately I don't share your optimism, but if we all had the same views.... Life would be dull
I'm with you. I am a full Jol Out fan, but I wanted to see why people want him to stay without any arguing.
Delano, the bickering, or should I say vitriol, comes totally from the Jol out camp. Calling him an idiot, a clown, Mr Blooby, plus other names, is completely unnecessary. The debate then becomes personal which defeats the whole object.
Vagrant whilst I have seen some of the above, I think it is a bit unfair to say all the insults have come from one side. I have seen enough evidence to suggest that both groups are not innocent in the war of words.
It just seems like it is every thread at the moment, and it is getting a bit tedious
My reasons for a Jol in .
here we go,
Personally i believe the talent he has brought to this club is second to none. Players we could of dreamt about getting, look at previous , gudjohnson , nevland ( little legend he is though ) ,kuqi . now we have the likes of bent and berbatov. both of whom are MILES above the other strikers we have ever had. Also, with his budget, what a cunning man him and mac are. lowest spending club in the league with some of the best signings. Although i believe the football can be abit shocking sometimes, it is very hard to get a working formula especially after 4 games with all these new players. Ruiz i agree is very poor recently, but i would trust him to do more than lets say mesca, who is just quick and could probably just nock it into the box. 0 creativity. We also haven't actually had are best team out yet : Stek, Riether , Amor , Brede , Richardson , Taarabt, Sidwell, Parker, Kaca , Bent , Berba <<< ..due to injuries. Although i don't believe jol is a very good tactician , its not entirely his fault. Coaching staff should take a long hard look at themselves as they are key to tactics if you haven't got a manager who actually joins in and breaks a sweat. However, it is debatable i suppose. Also, i belive players need to take a long hard look at themselves when they are doing shite. we as fans can say change this player for another etc , but if it didn't work and we got smashed fans would be going crazy. an example, all the berbatov out people , would rather start hugo. in my eyes that is utterly shocking. no manager ever in the history of football would do such a thing. Berba is berba, he always has been the way he is , and always will. but he can change a game in a instant. However, being alone upfront doesn't help. Also, paying a new manager to come in would cost a fortune and just don't see it happening. its more of a hinderance at the moment than a positive move. Also, 4 GAMES IN . thats it !!, its got to the point that if a defender messes up like they did on saturday and we conceded its jol's fault. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I belive he can do the business and we will see that soon. fingers crossed !
The above is a very good post although I would say the mark of a good manager is getting an average bunch of players to play like a great team probably for the last year however we have had a good bunch of players who play like a bad team
Someone has added to his 'Trivia' section on Wikipedia, and this person I think has cracked why Jol is the daft lump he is:
"Martin has a condition known as 'selective blindness', which is a very serious condition. It occurs, on average, between 3pm and 5pm on most Saturdays. During this time, Jol will come oblivious to what he is seeing, and has to look at past recordings of the players, from about 5 years ago, to rate their performance. This is one of the key reasons why Fulham have such an ageing squad, and in their dire run of form, Jol doesn't seem to notice anything."
Personally, I think the joke is a bit weak, but the change was reverted with the comment "We don't do trivia sections any more, which makes me laugh because it means the editor missed the humor completely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_Jol&diff=573251657&oldid=573230855 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_Jol&diff=573251657&oldid=573230855)
Doesn't an over 34% win ratio with FFC stick out?
Surely this answers the people who question the critics?
Shouldn't be editing Wikipedia pages, Mr Brown.
Quote from: EJL on September 17, 2013, 10:44:04 AM
Shouldn't be editing Wikipedia pages, Mr Brown.
No lie, it wasn't me.
Quote from: sumofallparts on September 17, 2013, 09:57:02 AM
Doesn't an over 34% win ratio with FFC stick out?
Surely this answers the people who question the critics?
Or in perspective perhaps?
| Arsène Wenger | 57.08 |
| Brendan Rodgers | 49.15 |
| Sam Allardyce | 42.86 |
| Alan Pardew | 37.60 |
| Michael Laudrup | 36.36 |
| Paul Lambert | 35.29 |
| Steve Clarke | 34.09 |
| Chris Hughton | 32.65 |
| -------------------- | ------- |
| |
| Paolo Di Canio | 25.00 |
| Mauricio Pochettino | 28.57 |
Good post.
I actually have no issue with losing, if the manager uses his tactics properly, the players run their legs off and the football is of a high quality and is entertaining to watch.
We have too many bad tactical decisions, too many lazy players and dull, tedious football a lot (not all) of the time.
Messrs Lambert and Laudrup may be similar in % terms but their teams are exciting to watch and play well.
Why should he stay?
- To prove his doubters wrong.
- To show he can succeed without all the resources he is used to having at the bigger clubs he has worked for.
- To finish what he has started.
- It is not good to change horses halfway around the track. Particularly when there aren't many viable alternative horses to change to.
- We have the makings of a good team. He just needs to pull it all together.
In recent times, as every match goes by, I stray closer to the Jol Out camp because what we get served up on the pitch isn't good enough. Particularly given the quality we do have out there. I watched the Swansea v. Liverpool match yesterday and just wished that we could play with the same energy, commitment and positivity that the Swans showed in the second half. With our players, we have the potential.
I would love Jol to turn things around and turn that potential in to reality... That's the main reason he should stay.
I am very impressed (honest) by the reasoned argument put in favour of Jol. Most of the comments above seem to be extremely well made and have much validity.
But he has had 2 years to turn the potential into reality.....
How long is too long?
Not a dig Burt, just playing devils advocate :P
Quote from: sumofallparts on September 17, 2013, 12:52:52 PM
But he has had 2 years to turn the potential into reality.....
How long is too long?
Not a dig Burt, just playing devils advocate :P
I think you have hit on a contentious item in that list - Potential.
What is our potential? Is it a Europa place finish? With the current squad? With the current squad and manager? With a change to the squad?
Many of Jols detractors will point to achievements of the past, with a different squad. Some blame Jol for Dempsey leaving, but who do they blame for Dempsey leaving Spuds? It may be relevant to see that AVB has a 53.33 win rate.
A manager makes his own team, and if that team does not perform, then it is either the manager picking the wrong players, the managers tactics or something else with the manager, that's a simple fact, but, as most of us know, nothing is really THAT simple in football management.
Jol is where the buck stops, but what really is Fulhams potential?
You have to give the guy at least 10 games this season before you decide whether he should go or not. And whatever you decide, it's irrelevant - there's a certain geezer with a luxuriant 'tache that will make the decision for you. Personally, I think it's all going to turn out fine. But then I can remember saying the same thing about Vic Buckingham!
It comes down to a simple decision. One that has split many fans. Are fans happy with the Jol style of play? Or would they like a more positive one? We can go on about points won and being a small club that are not as big as any club in the Prem and there are no easy games. Or we can look at thirteen years in the Prem and think why are we acting like a scared inferior team.
It is not ten games to decide or talk of rebuilding and all the other comments. It is now entering the third season with Jol. Are we happy with his brand of football or not? This is where we are divided.
But ultimately it's a tedious discussion with everyone seemingly having an entrenched position.
I'd give him more time - you wouldn't. Neither of us is objectively right or wrong or capable of persuading the other.
Results and performances may or may not improve and Jol's tenure as manager will depend on that.
