I've been reading everyone's comments and speculation about when, if ever, Jol will get the axe. And as I do, the notion of "Follow the Money" keeps coming back to me. By that, I mean, what is Khan's motive in buying the club? I think it's ultimately financial. I'm guessing he thinks he needs Fulham FFC for his larger, unexplained, plans regarding the Jaguars. He's no Abramowitz, willing to spend ridiculous sums to bask in a vanity play. And Ali Mack--what's his motive? Income plus the excitement of running an EPL team. Not just any football team. An EPL team.
Walk a while on this theme with me. If the team gets relegated, they get a parachute for one year in the Championship, right? And after that? The better players will have already scattered. The club revenue will be a fraction of what it is now. The attendance will be way down. Won't that mean the club will have to let a lot of employees go? What happens to Ali Mack? Can they afford to keep him at his current salary and benefits? Would he even stay? And surely he knows how hard it is to climb back up from Championship, once relegated.
So, if relegation means a loss of jobs, a loss of income, salaries slashed for those not eliminated, a loss of major income to Khan, then why hasn't Jol been given the boot by now? Seriously, follow the money. Isn't that what they always say: Follow the money? What motive would Kahn's financial motive be in keeping Jol on another day?By now, the general press has picked up on the enormous drop off in quality of play, the mounting losses. Pundits are coming out of the woodwork commenting on Jol and the players' performances. Many of you have uploaded some of the more interesting ones for the group to read. So, with all of the growing press, our bad-and-getting-worse situation isn't hidden under a bushel. EVERYONE knows about it now. I have to believe Khan is fully aware of it and has heard an earful about Jol, about replacing him, about bringing in quality players to fill holes, and so on. Yet each day passes with no announcement of change. Why?
Could it be that Khan never intended to keep Fulham up? Has anyone ever come across a study of the value of the land for high-end residential development? Or for any kind of maximized value redevelopment? Just asking, because this is otherwise looking like Theatre of the Absurd to me. This prolonged inaction just doesn't make sense. He's supposed to be a man of decisive action. Well?...
We like to think that because he is a Pakistani-American, he doesn't really understand about relegation. Let's put that theory to bed once and for all, shall we? We like to think that because he lives across the Atlantic, he is somehow not fully aware of the goings-on. Can we put that one to bed as well? So, if he isn't going to act quickly, is it because he is satisfied if the team goes down--for reasons not quite clear, but which must be somehow money-motivated. Or is it that he doesn't want to seem like a quick-trigger guy who will drop a head manager as soon as things take a bad turn? I think that that bad turn has happened quite some time ago, don't you? So, is he buying B.S. from Jol, is that it? Has Jol been able to effectively deflect blame (in Khan's eyes) onto his players? Nothing makes sense to me. Has to be money-centric at this point. I don't see Khan as a billionaire auto parts ditherer, do you?
Trust me, NO American owner wants to have a club outside the Premiership, especially a 200 million pound investment playing football in the Championship. You're right, Khan is a businessman, it is all about the money, but if you want my honest opinion, I think he has been slightly miss advised when taking over the club. Not about the potential of Fulham, but about the current state of the first team and how much investment it required.
Firstly, Khan was advised by, I'm assuming Mackintosh, that the 'current plan' was good enough to run with. Khan, not knowing a lot about football, has trusted his advisors to get it right, but they've clearly not. From this, Khan has said OK, and I'll monitor it for a season, fair enough, why not.
I myself was a bit gob-smacked when we didn't invest any money into that squad. It's been desperate for investment for the last 3-4 season and I'd have thought the club would have said to Khan that it needs a revamp. After this, we can then build things slowly, success with growth, stability etc, but no.
The 'current plan' of freebies, old, and aging players was designed for another season under Maf, not Khan. I think someone has tried to be clever here or earn brownie points by trying to save money, but didn't expect other teams like Swansea, Norwich, Southampton and the likes to invest heavily around us.
Khan is now stuck between a rock and a hard place. He's been advised on one thing, and it clearly isn't working. The transfer window has passed, we're stuck with the current squad until January, and we have a manager that isn't performing. Fine, fire him, but is there really anyone else out there at this moment in time that can get a best out of this squad? As much I can't stand Jol, my initial thoughts are no.
Here is another thing. Say Jol gets 3 or 4 wins under his belt this side of January, what do you think the mood will be? Will there be a mood similar to Blackburn with the crowd wanting the manager out at any cost?
I am not backing Jol at all here, but I can remember the venomous atmosphere created at Blackburn, with the crowd turning on Kean. Their need to have their way coming above getting behind the team and providing support needed during big games. My biggest fear is that the same mentality will descend on us and we will be in a no win situation.
Admin is right- Khan took over and made all these noises about sustainability, sticking with our current path, not wanting to rock the boat, wanting to take a season to assess the situation.....
The problem is in the PL you can't do that. Teams around us like Cardiff, Swansea and Norwich spent upwards of £40m to maximise their chances of survival. Stand still and you go backwards. Our squad NEEDED investment- anyone who watched the club since January could have told you that. How bad were we at the end of last season? Wasn't it 6 or 7 defeats on the bounce and one home win....The path we were on was headed straight for relegation.
We've been starved of investment for years. The playing squad is old, tired and badly in need of revamping. To not invest when every team around us did was a huge gamble by Khan which won't pay off. That might fly in the NFL where you get time to assess and rebuild, but not in the PL. Whether he was just insufficiently informed about the quality of the team, or whether he's just not committed I don't know. The fact that we re-signed Karagounis, and at nearly 37 he's still probably our best CM was telling.
I want to raise one more point. I think for his ineptitude in realising the extent of the situation Ali Mac needs to go. He has no excuse. Further, we were told by him that the club "secured all our targets during the transfer window". Well the clubs own communications show that's rubbish:
Jol in Fulltime: "We couldn't afford James McCarthy so I had to take Scott Parker".
Clearly the Khan was unwilling to stump up the funds for the players Jol wanted and we needed, and Ali Mac just stood idly by and watched. The sooner all three are out of our club the better in my view.
We will get serious investment in January I am confident in that... Khan cannot let us slip down after his first season.
He is a very good businessman, so will do whatever it takes to keep us up.
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
I've been reading everyone's comments and speculation about when, if ever, Jol will get the axe. And as I do, the notion of "Follow the Money" keeps coming back to me. By that, I mean, what is Khan's motive in buying the club? I think it's ultimately financial. I'm guessing he thinks he needs Fulham FFC for his larger, unexplained, plans regarding the Jaguars. He's no Abramowitz, willing to spend ridiculous sums to bask in a vanity play. And Ali Mack--what's his motive? Income plus the excitement of running an EPL team. Not just any football team. An EPL team.
Walk a while on this theme with me. If the team gets relegated, they get a parachute for one year in the Championship, right? And after that? The better players will have already scattered. The club revenue will be a fraction of what it is now. The attendance will be way down. Won't that mean the club will have to let a lot of employees go? What happens to Ali Mack? Can they afford to keep him at his current salary and benefits? Would he even stay? And surely he knows how hard it is to climb back up from Championship, once relegated.
So, if relegation means a loss of jobs, a loss of income, salaries slashed for those not eliminated, a loss of major income to Khan, then why hasn't Jol been given the boot by now? Seriously, follow the money. Isn't that what they always say: Follow the money? What motive would Kahn's financial motive be in keeping Jol on another day?By now, the general press has picked up on the enormous drop off in quality of play, the mounting losses. Pundits are coming out of the woodwork commenting on Jol and the players' performances. Many of you have uploaded some of the more interesting ones for the group to read. So, with all of the growing press, our bad-and-getting-worse situation isn't hidden under a bushel. EVERYONE knows about it now. I have to believe Khan is fully aware of it and has heard an earful about Jol, about replacing him, about bringing in quality players to fill holes, and so on. Yet each day passes with no announcement of change. Why?
Could it be that Khan never intended to keep Fulham up? Has anyone ever come across a study of the value of the land for high-end residential development? Or for any kind of maximized value redevelopment? Just asking, because this is otherwise looking like Theatre of the Absurd to me. This prolonged inaction just doesn't make sense. He's supposed to be a man of decisive action. Well?...
We like to think that because he is a Pakistani-American, he doesn't really understand about relegation. Let's put that theory to bed once and for all, shall we? We like to think that because he lives across the Atlantic, he is somehow not fully aware of the goings-on. Can we put that one to bed as well? So, if he isn't going to act quickly, is it because he is satisfied if the team goes down--for reasons not quite clear, but which must be somehow money-motivated. Or is it that he doesn't want to seem like a quick-trigger guy who will drop a head manager as soon as things take a bad turn? I think that that bad turn has happened quite some time ago, don't you? So, is he buying B.S. from Jol, is that it? Has Jol been able to effectively deflect blame (in Khan's eyes) onto his players? Nothing makes sense to me. Has to be money-centric at this point. I don't see Khan as a billionaire auto parts ditherer, do you?
Very good post I can see exactly where youre coming from on this, personally the bottom dollar to me is that Jol is very much macs and the boards chosen man and even with the dire tactics coaching etc their running scared of sacking him and possibly still going down and would risk leaving sacking Jol to the very last minute ie xmas time, but the paying fans simply cant suffer that scenario and are demanding prompt action
I agree Pluto, Ali Mac had a disastrous summer and needs to go as well.
IMO Khan has been consistent and clear from the start. He said he was not going to make any immediate changes and we were left in on doubt that the current Manager and CEO would continue with their short term plan. He said it was right to look at the re-development of the Riverside. The fans only asked for MJ to go and Khan got rid of him.
.................the fans asked for the removal of the wrong MJ.
Stating that there is a lack of investment is not strictly true, we have one of the best Academy's in the country and you do not get that from lack of investment. The wages of Berbatov, Riisa and Bent alone would pay the wages of 6 /7 young hungry good quality players.
I do not believe anything that comes out of Jol's mouth. In particular his comment on McCarthy v Parker, I would question if indeed he knows anything about McCarthy. He only knows players he has worked with, his favourites (and he has got most of them together at Fulham ).
Lets not loose sight of the reason we are in our current demise, we have watched our players, week on week turning out against their opposite number with clearly no knowledge of their MO. Our players are unfit and appear to be strangers on the field of play, with little knowledge of each others game. They are not prepared physically or mentally.
That is the fault of the Team's Management and only them.
I suspect Jol on first meeting (and 2nd) ..... may appear impressive so perhaps Khan was blind sided ???
Throwing a load of money and getting in another bunch of strangers in January is not going to help build a team or move us up the table it need a change, a new ethos.
Jol hasn't had much choice than to get a bunch of strangers to try and play together - because he has had to get whoever was available and affordable, and yes, maybe top players he'd worked with before were attracted to come to the club near the end of their careers.
Teams like Soton and Swansea have spent a lot of money bringing in their top young players, and blending youth and experience into a team.
Fulham probably has about the same percentage of home developed youth in and around the first team as any other squad - well, more than the top six probaby. And even then, many of the Fulham youngsters are bought from abroad, rather than native talent.
Agree with Admin that Khan deffo won't want us dropping out the Prem, and that he was advised that we had enough talent to stay up under Jol, while he, Khan, assesses the situation.
Agree also that we need major investment in the squad, and have done for some time - history might see Jol as doing well under the circumstances, and we have been v unlucky this season, and now the team seems scared and low in confidence, and unable to play to its potential.
Also, as said, we have to wait til Jan for new players, so who is out there who can come in and turn things round managerially without this investment?. I think Khan knows that you should make these decisions with care, and avoid panic choices.
I hope this isn't going to turn into another 'there's no one else out there' thread'?
The points are well made regarding Khan's motives. However, and trust me on this, development of the ground for non community / football purposes is out of the question.
Even if you could get the various covenants preventing development removed and get the Local Authority plan changed and get a High Court Review of the density requirements for the area the time scale and expense would render the proposition non viable, at least for twenty years.
There are a lot easier ways to invest 200 million quid out there.
So Khan's motives have to be what he has stated.
Unfortunately, he has found himself in a position where he will have to make decisions that are out of his comfort zone given that he hasn't had time to familiarise himself with the club, EPL, football etc.
Serious investment in January??? If this slide continues, what even half decent players would want to come here, without us paying rediculous wages like QPR did. That didn't work did it? Not only that, how much time would it take to gel as a team. I don't know the answers, I cannot see a light. We do need action now, and a new approach and fresh management might spur things on.
I appreciate the serious responses. So let's assume Ally Mack gave bad or overly optimistic advice to Khan or his people. And let's assume Khan trusted him and held off replacing talent when the window was still open, held off replacing Jol when even a blind person could see it wasn't working. Now we are in mid November and the slide to relegation looks even more inevitable. And Khan still hasn't replaced Jol. Why? The longer he waits, the less time Jol's replacement will have to exert his influence on the team, the less time he will have to mold, reshape, persuade, cajole, get them in the shape they haven't been in all year, buying into a new system. It makes no business sense to wait any longer to fire Jol, and replace him with a true manager. One more thing: What manager worth anything would publicly state that he wanted player X but had to settle for the player he has. What a way to alienate Scott Parker! KCat is right: We have watched the slow slide week after week and witnessed players getting worse. How much worse must they play before Khan knows he must act now? In the Kean situation, Blackburn didn't have an owner with such vast wealth as Khan is presumed to have at his disposal. If Khan really is getting his information through a filter supplied by Mac, then Mac must go as well. What a mess. No honeymoon period allowed. S.O.S. Mayday. I repeat, Mayday. If anyone can hear me. Help. My boat went down five weeks ago, and the lifeboat is leaking water. Can only bail so fast. My arms are getting tired. Sharks circling. Help. Mayday. I repeat, Mayday. Last sighting: just off the Thames and taking on water. Must get to the shipping channel for rescue. No more flares left. Mates have stopped bailing. No one will continue to paddle. Survivors have taken to pouting. Claim to have lost their appetite. We were provided this map from the First Officer, but still no land in sight.
...an interesting post and some interesting responses.
Just a couple of points:-
People talk about Alistair MacIntosh being culpable for the decline for not spending the money, they make it sound like it comes out of his own pocket! He is the CEO, not the benefactor. He is given a budget and has to target players with the manager and negotiate with agents to secure contracts within the budget constraints. He is a good CEO and knows the score and he is aware of the clamour to rid us of the manager, and we don't know the limitations of funding in the last two seasons of Mr Fayed's tenure, and we certainly have no idea what treasure chest Mr Khan will make available in the highly inflated winter transfer market.
Shahid Khan is an enigma, nobody here really knows him, or what his intentions are apart from the brief glimpses of him saying what we want to hear, albeit without any substance. The Kudos and cache of owning a Premier League club that is also a conduit for promoting the image and brand of his Jaguars team into the European marketplace has to be of vital importance to him, a championship club will not give him that - so following the money, why would he pay a huge amount of money for a football club and let the investment wither on the vine? I doubt he would get his money back on the 'real-estate' value of the locations of Craven Cottage and Motspur Park together.
We can only wait and see what happens in the next two months to see the intentions, but a statement from the club should be made without further delay so that the paying fans can rest easy - or otherwise...
Easy to be wise after the event and there are certainly posters here who can say that they always opposed Jol.
I didn't and I think that's true of most. I was broadly pleased with our summer transfer business and expected us to have a decent season. I still don't really know why it's imploded so badly.
So I think Khan and Mackintosh were entitled to feel that we'd be OK this season and that Khan could play himself in gently.
To be fair we had two wins in a row only a few weeks ago and Khan sampled a euphoric atmosphere at Palace.
The only way his investment makes any sense is to keep us in the Premier League and grow the Fulham brand internationally.
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Thought to be £30M 10 years ago.
There would be enormous difficulties in getting planning permission if it meant the death of the club. Easier if part of a relocation.
If Khan had £200M to spend on property development he'd not be buying Craven Cottage. Plenty of empty land in Florida.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 10:31:20 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Thought to be £30M 10 years ago.
There would be enormous difficulties in getting planning permission if it meant the death of the club. Easier if part of a relocation.
If Khan had £200M to spend on property development he'd not be buying Craven Cottage. Plenty of empty land in Florida.
My point wasn't about relocation or actually selling the land itself, just that it remains an asset on the clubs books meaning the clubs valuation would still be relatively high considering all things. (he'd still lose a significant amount though obviously)
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
As I mentioned before, It would be virtually impossible to develop the ground in the next twenty years. There are better places to spend 200 million quid if it's just a development opportunity you're after.
The value of the land is less now than it was a ten years ago.
Quote from: The Old Count on November 12, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
As I mentioned before, It would be virtually impossible to develop the ground in the next twenty years. There are better places to spend 200 million quid if it's just a development opportunity you're after.
The value of the land is less now than it was a ten years ago.
The land itself hasn't depreciated in value. That much I'm certain on.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 10:15:34 AM
Easy to be wise after the event and there are certainly posters here who can say that they always opposed Jol.
I didn't and I think that's true of most. I was broadly pleased with our summer transfer business and expected us to have a decent season. I still don't really know why it's imploded so badly.
So I think Khan and Mackintosh were entitled to feel that we'd be OK this season and that Khan could play himself in gently.
To be fair we had two wins in a row only a few weeks ago and Khan sampled a euphoric atmosphere at Palace.
The only way his investment makes any sense is to keep us in the Premier League and grow the Fulham brand internationally.
I would like it on record that I never wanted Mr Jol at this club. And I received no end of abuse at the time for that opinion.
(Mind you, at the time, I did say I would rather have O'Neill so I can't be too smug about it)
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 11:13:20 AM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 12, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
As I mentioned before, It would be virtually impossible to develop the ground in the next twenty years. There are better places to spend 200 million quid if it's just a development opportunity you're after.
The value of the land is less now than it was a ten years ago.
The land itself hasn't depreciated in value. That much I'm certain on.
It has mate. Due to a number of factors: Nil possibility of development in the near future (exclusion from the LGP and density issues), restrictive covenants, listing of the Stevenage Rd Stand etc.
It's worrying that Khan has been chairman less than six months and we're already talking about the potential death of our club.
Quote from: The Old Count on November 12, 2013, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 11:13:20 AM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 12, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
As I mentioned before, It would be virtually impossible to develop the ground in the next twenty years. There are better places to spend 200 million quid if it's just a development opportunity you're after.
The value of the land is less now than it was a ten years ago.
The land itself hasn't depreciated in value. That much I'm certain on.
It has mate. Due to a number of factors: Nil possibility of development in the near future (exclusion from the LGP and density issues), restrictive covenants, listing of the Stevenage Rd Stand etc.
So, are you telling me if the club was sold and the land bought, that they couldn't knock down the stadium and build on top of any of it?
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
Thanks. I'm fairly convinced now the financials on land redevelopment--if it ever could be redeveloped--don't come close to the losses that would be sustained by relegation. I've always had a somewhat exalted image of Mackintosh in my mind, until this season. I figured he was the glue dealing with an 80+ year old owner who had gotten drunk on his wealth, bizarre in behavior, open letters, pop star statutes on football grounds, a 'healthy' imagination. How do you steer a man like Fayed to keep making beneficial decisions? I thought of Mac as the steady oar, the accountant who loved and understood the game, and managed in ways large and small to control the boss where possible and keep the club on the right course. Until this season. Has he been intimidated by Khan and his people? Has he lost his voice, his influence over ownership? Maybe he's been at war with himself. That guy's too old. Yes, but he's cheap. That other one won't run, slows the game down, and won't take direction. Yes, but he does nice tricks with the ball, and he'll fill seats. We really do need to replace Dempsey and Dembele. Yes, but look how much money we kept as a result of all of these loans.
Mac claims to love the club, yet for all of his supposed knowledge of the game, he participated in the acquisition of old men and loaners to fill holes in the roster. Short timers, first team rejects, and mystery take-a-chance players from other leagues where the style of play is so different. Well, OK, maybe that's a bit harsh. But the net net is that my opinion of him has fallen of late. The club needed him to see what the fans see and to relay that to the new owner or his liaison. It doesn't look like he has done that. He has institutional memory. He should have the perspective of a long time Fulham fan. So, either he has made his feelings quietly known to Khan or he hasn't. Jol must go ASAP. But it doesn't seem that he has conveyed that message. Jol can't touch Mackintosh, can't get him fired, can't hurt him. He's free to quietly speak his mind to the new ownership. Doesn't look like he has. Or, if he has, he's only said encouraging 'be patient' bromides. If so, he's let down the side and should go. The analogy to Blackburn is a bit unfair. Kean didn't have the native talent that Jol has to work with. Yet they aren't in shape, they don't play as a unit, they never press anyone, they don't know how to evade high pressure trapping, they take corners poorly...things that can be improved upon with training.
We have absolutely no idea what Mackintosh may have said to Khan and how influential his opinion is.
We can all speculate away but none of us has a clue what is happening behind the scenes.
I would like to use Middlesborough as a possible parallel to Fulham. I hope you all don't think I digress too much. I have inside information, a friend who was a business model consultant and also another who is the son of Keiith Lamb, the ceo.
Going back to McLaren days, huge problems existed with his management and he was about to be sacked, then he took the England job and save them a bucket load of money. My friend wrote a model because they were losing money and had loads of not so good, mercenary, big money earners (sound familiar). They have a terrific youth coach in Parnaby who produced some decent pros. The business model showed the benefit of producng kids and filtering some into the first team if good enough, therefore saving on fees and wages plus selling off some to lower division clubs to recoup some cash.
Can't remember all the reasons but they could not halt the slide, a similar slide to Fulham right now I would say, and to steal from earlier post about sinking ship, they bailed out, knowing they would likely go down but it was a gamble. In preparation for relegation, they held on to some senior players with premier experience, combined with some youngsters. They went down, hoping to bounce back quickly. It did not happen.
Fast forward to today. I had a couple of pints with my friend, (son of ceo) and asked him what is going on at Middlesborough. He just shook his head, they are likely to be in the 3rd division next year (recently fired another manager), the ceo is semi retired now, the owner (a life long supporter) became a tax exile and is rarely there and the worst bit, the club is still losing millions every season.
Having just been purchased by a wealthy businessman, I sincerely hope Fulham's new owner has a better model than Middlesborough, bearing in mind their owner paid about 10 quid for the club. However, like all of you, I feel change is needed and needed NOW.
I fly to UK next week, will be at the Swansea game.....which pub pre game? I would like to meet some of you.
I cant help but think that our current form / issues are all a result of a gamble gone wrong
MAF wanted to recoup losses, balance his investment; hence lessening squad investment, sale of core players, Riverside development too seems to be a myth / selling point
Sparky was right, we had / have no ambition just an arrogant belief were good enough for the Prem on a poundland transfer budget
Khan appears to see us purely as a commercial opportunity and was potentially mis-sold us on the belief that as Jol spouts the embarrassing / almost arrogant FFC party line, there are five teams worse than us despite our short termist squad / transfer policy
however others (our relative competition) have invested, moved on, improved and we've just bloated our wage bill with dross, stagnated and been the worst team in the league in the last calendar year to date
MAF, Mac and Khan have not been completely clear over the past 24 months
as much as i want Jol Out... i am amazed he hasn't walked a'la Hughes as i would not blame him
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
No one said it was easy or it would even happen but I believe even with significant losses that area on the Thames is still worth a very large sum of money and stick by that point. Things *could* progress if certain strings were pulled is all i'm saying. *Not even speculating that it will.*
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
No one said it was easy or it would even happen but I believe even with significant losses that area on the Thames is still worth a very large sum of money and stick by that point. Things *could* progress if certain strings were pulled is all i'm saying. *Not even speculating that it will.*
Aren't there building height restrictions in place there, near the river? If you can't go significantly up, you are capped on the maximum revenue from the land.
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
No one said it was easy or it would even happen but I believe even with significant losses that area on the Thames is still worth a very large sum of money and stick by that point. Things *could* progress if certain strings were pulled is all i'm saying. *Not even speculating that it will.*
Aren't there building height restrictions in place there, near the river? If you can't go significantly up, you are capped on the maximum revenue from the land.
I'll make a presumption that they can go to the similar height of say our stadium. (at an estimated guess)
That's a smart assumption, I think, although the stadium might be getting sui generis treatment. A landmark. An historic building of cultural significance. That sort of thing. Yes?
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
No one said it was easy or it would even happen but I believe even with significant losses that area on the Thames is still worth a very large sum of money and stick by that point. Things *could* progress if certain strings were pulled is all i'm saying. *Not even speculating that it will.*
Aren't there building height restrictions in place there, near the river? If you can't go significantly up, you are capped on the maximum revenue from the land.
...damn, I was going to buy a penthouse flat at the Putney Wharf Tower (http://media.rightmove.co.uk/55k/54986/40419532/54986_PUT110151_IMG_06_0002_max_620x414.JPG)
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 12:35:28 PM
That's a smart assumption, I think, although the stadium might be getting sui generis treatment. A landmark. An historic building of cultural significance. That sort of thing. Yes?
Perhaps, no idea really. Like I said, best estimate I could make was based on whats there already (and my apparent lack of land registry regulations)
Quote from: LBNo11 on November 12, 2013, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
You can't just build what you want where you want. Planning laws apply.
Obviously circumstances change but the club's supporters and backers fought and ultimately won that battle in the 80s when we were a club that seemed to be in its death throws.
No one said it was easy or it would even happen but I believe even with significant losses that area on the Thames is still worth a very large sum of money and stick by that point. Things *could* progress if certain strings were pulled is all i'm saying. *Not even speculating that it will.*
Aren't there building height restrictions in place there, near the river? If you can't go significantly up, you are capped on the maximum revenue from the land.
...damn, I was going to buy a penthouse flat at the Putney Wharf Tower (http://media.rightmove.co.uk/55k/54986/40419532/54986_PUT110151_IMG_06_0002_max_620x414.JPG)
Ha good point.
Quote from: Forever Fulham on November 12, 2013, 11:50:51 AM
Thanks. I'm fairly convinced now the financials on land redevelopment--if it ever could be redeveloped--don't come close to the losses that would be sustained by relegation. I've always had a somewhat exalted image of Mackintosh in my mind, until this season. I figured he was the glue dealing with an 80+ year old owner who had gotten drunk on his wealth, bizarre in behavior, open letters, pop star statutes on football grounds, a 'healthy' imagination. How do you steer a man like Fayed to keep making beneficial decisions? I thought of Mac as the steady oar, the accountant who loved and understood the game, and managed in ways large and small to control the boss where possible and keep the club on the right course. Until this season. Has he been intimidated by Khan and his people? Has he lost his voice, his influence over ownership? Maybe he's been at war with himself. That guy's too old. Yes, but he's cheap. That other one won't run, slows the game down, and won't take direction. Yes, but he does nice tricks with the ball, and he'll fill seats. We really do need to replace Dempsey and Dembele. Yes, but look how much money we kept as a result of all of these loans.
Mac claims to love the club, yet for all of his supposed knowledge of the game, he participated in the acquisition of old men and loaners to fill holes in the roster. Short timers, first team rejects, and mystery take-a-chance players from other leagues where the style of play is so different. Well, OK, maybe that's a bit harsh. But the net net is that my opinion of him has fallen of late. The club needed him to see what the fans see and to relay that to the new owner or his liaison. It doesn't look like he has done that. He has institutional memory. He should have the perspective of a long time Fulham fan. So, either he has made his feelings quietly known to Khan or he hasn't. Jol must go ASAP. But it doesn't seem that he has conveyed that message. Jol can't touch Mackintosh, can't get him fired, can't hurt him. He's free to quietly speak his mind to the new ownership. Doesn't look like he has. Or, if he has, he's only said encouraging 'be patient' bromides. If so, he's let down the side and should go. The analogy to Blackburn is a bit unfair. Kean didn't have the native talent that Jol has to work with. Yet they aren't in shape, they don't play as a unit, they never press anyone, they don't know how to evade high pressure trapping, they take corners poorly...things that can be improved upon with training.
I agree Forever
Last year we had 4 loan players.
Reither we got. Thank god.
Emanuelson:-Left back/Left Midfield. Young fast talented ball player. No offer made.
Enoh: Midfielder 2 footed ball player, hard tackling and only mid 20's £4m quoted initially tho it went down to £2m. No offer made.
Manolev: Right back/Right Midfield. Young fast talented ball player. Excellent double up with Reither. No offer made.
In all these cases, (esp Eno), AMc quibbled over money. Sometimes as little as £0.5-0.75m.
In all these cases, we knew they fitted with the team and the league (to varying degrees).
In all these cases, they would have lowered the age of the team.
In all these cases, we missed the boat.
Yol doesn't deal with the money. AllyMac does.
IMO he was so intent on looking good for his new boss, he dropped the ball in getting in players by playing hard ball with the money.
In stead we brought in old-timers who cannot even manage a 90 minute game.
IMO, AllyMac is massively culpable for the dilemma we now find ourselves in.
049:gif
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
Mackintosh won't be deciding how much of the owner's money the club can spend or how much of the clubs income is to be paid to the owner. He'll be as stuck with the owner's budget as Jol is.
It was always said that if a manager wanted a player he'd go to MAF to make a case and see if the money can be spent. MAF - not whoever happened to be CEO.
The title sounds grand but MAF made the big decisions and delegated the detail and implementation.
Is it any different with Khan? One clear difference is that MAF was available and decisive.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
However, its a shame that land located directly next to the Thames has NO value. What a newbie I am...
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
However, its a shame that land located directly next to the Thames has NO value. What a newbie I am...
It is it you cannot sell it! Bishops park is worth what? Don't start talk about selling the ground you are on very dangerous ground for a lot of people who fought both to keep the club going as an independent club and remain at the Cottage. just because some yank lawyer who has never ever set foot in the club starts spouting off about following the money trail it does not need people with no knowledge of the history of the club to further his so called analysis that goes on for ever without any substance at all :dft007: :dft007:
I'm not sure what point your making.
Of course the land has value. Khan could sell it to somebody who might rent it back to the club in which case the value would be about ten times the annual rental.
He can't possibly have bought the club because of some notional development potential for the Craven Cottage site.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
However, its a shame that land located directly next to the Thames has NO value. What a newbie I am...
It is it you cannot sell it! Bishops park is worth what? Don't start talk about selling the ground you are on very dangerous ground for a lot of people who fought both to keep the club going as an independent club and remain at the Cottage. just because some yank lawyer who has never ever set foot in the club starts spouting off about following the money trail it does not need people with no knowledge of the history of the club to further his so called analysis that goes on for ever without any substance at all :dft007: :dft007:
Disrespectful verging on the disgraceful. I'll now expect nothing less.
Not sure what you're eluding to though. Or getting angry about.
No one said he was selling it. I just said the club even with relegation will still be worth a significant amount because the ground it's on, is still deemed valuable. Which it is. As it was no doubt included and valuated thereupon in the changeover. And no doubt forms part of the clubs balance sheet.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
However, its a shame that land located directly next to the Thames has NO value. What a newbie I am...
It is it you cannot sell it! Bishops park is worth what? Don't start talk about selling the ground you are on very dangerous ground for a lot of people who fought both to keep the club going as an independent club and remain at the Cottage. just because some yank lawyer who has never ever set foot in the club starts spouting off about following the money trail it does not need people with no knowledge of the history of the club to further his so called analysis that goes on for ever without any substance at all :dft007: :dft007:
That is being unfair and assuming fan power is the be all, end all of the argument. The Cardiff owner has them playing in Red, Hull's boss wants them known as The Tigers. Tradition matters not one jolt and let's face it, the old fans will be replaced by new "day tripper" style supporters if the moneymen get their offer right.
I may have my figures wrong but I think Coventry left the Ricoh arena because on League 1 crowds they couldn't afford the £1Mpa rent.
If we get relegated the crowds will thin out. The grounds only use is as a football stadium and the value to Khan would be a small fraction of the £200M he is said to have spent.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 12, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I know the club will be worth significantly less but seriously, how much is the land worth on the Thames? Regarding the valuation of the club, this won't reduce, if anything,increase each year!
Spoken like a true newbie! the land has no value as the council will insist on social housing there , something the Fiona's and archibalds would not want, Mo tried it when he first came with Thames bank holdings and found out the score.
Spoken like a smug git. The value of the land will still be valuated in the asset of the club.
The value of the land is no doubt in the balance sheet. Khan, we are told, paid £200M for the club which obviously includes the land. If it's to be sold separately it's value is as a football stadium unless there's a reasonable prospect of permission to use the land for something else.
However, its a shame that land located directly next to the Thames has NO value. What a newbie I am...
It is it you cannot sell it! Bishops park is worth what? Don't start talk about selling the ground you are on very dangerous ground for a lot of people who fought both to keep the club going as an independent club and remain at the Cottage. just because some yank lawyer who has never ever set foot in the club starts spouting off about following the money trail it does not need people with no knowledge of the history of the club to further his so called analysis that goes on for ever without any substance at all :dft007: :dft007:
Disrespectful verging on the disgraceful. I'll now expect nothing less.
Not sure what you're eluding to though. Or getting angry about.
No one said he was selling it. I just said the club even with relegation will still be worth a significant amount because the ground it's on, is still deemed valuable. Which it is. As it was no doubt included and valuated thereupon in the changeover. And no doubt forms part of the clubs balance sheet.
I apologise for getting wound up but there is a question mark every time we get new owners and we have been shafted so many times you tend to shout first before getting back to the wall
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:31:52 PM
I may have my figures wrong but I think Coventry left the Ricoh arena because on League 1 crowds they couldn't afford the £1Mpa rent.
If we get relegated the crowds will thin out. The grounds only use is as a football stadium and the value to Khan would be a small fraction of the £200M he is said to have spent.
Defining that as a non-current asset. This definition is more applicable to the stadium itself as opposed to the valuation of the earth it sits on. I'm differentiating the stadium from the land valuation which is my point. My point being, im actually saying the clubs in a good position and can handle whatever gets thrown at it. If the worst should come.
Quote from: Rudolph on November 12, 2013, 01:41:00 AM
Here is another thing. Say Jol gets 3 or 4 wins under his belt this side of January, what do you think the mood will be? Will there be a mood similar to Blackburn with the crowd wanting the manager out at any cost?
I am not backing Jol at all here, but I can remember the venomous atmosphere created at Blackburn, with the crowd turning on Kean. Their need to have their way coming above getting behind the team and providing support needed during big games. My biggest fear is that the same mentality will descend on us and we will be in a no win situation.
well said!
:plus one: :plus one: :plus one: :plus one:
Quote from: TonyGilroy on November 12, 2013, 02:31:52 PM
I may have my figures wrong but I think Coventry left the Ricoh arena because on League 1 crowds they couldn't afford the £1Mpa rent.
If we get relegated the crowds will thin out. The grounds only use is as a football stadium and the value to Khan would be a small fraction of the £200M he is said to have spent.
I could be wrong but I think the Coventry City Council offered the chance for City to play at the Ricoh for free in the end. There was a very detailed post about it on Reddit before the start of the season. Must look for it later.
