Should of put NFR in the title but it is sort of fulham related as most of our squad probably still listen to nursery rhymes.
First of all humpty dumpty...... now im all for pretending an egg is an actual person. I might even be persuaded that he could just be sitting on a wall, its believable that he could have a fall (hes an egg, I wouldnt expect him to have much balance). They tell you it was a great fall, well that would depend on how big the wall was, ive checked and there is definitely no reference to the size in the rhyme. But so far im buying it even if it is a bit suspect.....
Then they start taking liberties with us, all the kings horses and all the kings men couldnt put him back together? So first of all its a horrible ending, no happy ever after for humpty, which is a shame because by this stage we've fallen in love with that poor egg. We fell with him off that wall on this emotional rollercoaster. That could really effect a childs life, sub consciously it effected mine, I hate eggs!
Secondly, why on earth was the kings men trying to put him together again, you mean to tell men in this day and age not one of them had a mobile to call 999? And even if mobiles werent invented then, they all had a horse each, how about one of them riding to find help? ..... no they had a better idea, get the horses to help kill humpty off.
This isnt operation the board game, this was a case of life or death and those kings men were incredibly irresponsible. Unless theres a hidden message I cant see im very disappointed this rhyme has lasted the test of time. Its wrong on so many levels, I reckon they should scramble it..... get it? Haha
What about the wheels on the bus go round and round all day long. Now first of all, if your child doesnt realise that already then reading this is the least of your problems. Secondly they do not spin all day long. What about when the bus needs to stop off for fuel? These people really didnt think these things through when they took it upon themselves to write a nursery rhyme.
What do ya reckon? Am I right or am I right? Dont even get me started on hickory dickory dock!
Well, first off, they couldn't use the cell-phones cos they were scrambled!! ok, ok, :Get Coat gif:
Then, think on the bright side, it didn't actually say that he perished in the fall, did it? Or even why he fell (was he on the Scotch do you think?), perhaps it was the Devile in him?
Someone has far too much time on their hands :dft011:
Like almost all nursery rhymes there was a story behind the rhyme which in this case appears to have a number of claimed sources. The rhyme never actually mentions an egg. Ring a ring a roses is probably the most unpleasant with its background in the plague.
Marvelous this internet thing.
This is brilliant! Such educated answers, maybe I have time on my hands but my youngest daughter loves nursery rhymes. Unfortunately ive heard them.so many times that I started to analyse them. I knew there was a story behind most of them but im surprised to learn humpty dumpty wasnt originally an egg.
Cheers guys. Anyone wanna explain 3blind mice for me please? That one really baffles me
Quote from: Beamer on September 04, 2014, 11:11:05 PM
Like almost all nursery rhymes there was a story behind the rhyme which in this case appears to have a number of claimed sources. The rhyme never actually mentions an egg. Ring a ring a roses is probably the most unpleasant with its background in the plague.
Except it doesn't. This is one of those wonderful explanations that was put forward as late as the war and suddenly was taken as true. There was no mention of the rhyme being connected to the plague. As there are several versions of the nursery rhyme. The one that is popular today is probably popular because of the late explanation of it. I cannot remember the exact explanation but I think QI had is a question and pointed the untruth of the truth we all thought existed in the rhyme.
Did I miss something? While reading the initial post, I was thinking about FFC and the debacle here .... the great fall - the fall from the Pem, the King being Khan, and all his men and horses (AM, FM,etc) ... or am I just of twisted thinking...
then I read all the actual analyses of nursery rhymes
Am I nuts or what? I actually thought DB's post very clever ... I must be nuts or twisted or else I read to many posts on this board. 1500.gif
FYI: Humpty Dumpty is actually a bastardization of Humptus Dumptus the legendary hunch back dwarf and at the time, the Roman Head of Telephone Lines and Communications, ( 2nd cousin to Biggus Dickus) who fell whilst connecting the Jerusalem to Rome phone line and fractures his skull.
The title is lost in translation, in fact the King was in fact the Roman Emperor at the time: Ian Claudius.
Humptus, (whose father Julius Chickenus) was in fact air lifted to Emporer's Hospital in Galilee by the drunken
Unconscious Pontius the Pilot !!
Pompous Humptus (as he was known by his enemies) did in fact make a full recovery but died 4 years later on the battle field, from shell shock
Quote from: mitimo on September 05, 2014, 01:28:27 AM
Did I miss something? While reading the initial post, I was thinking about FFC and the debacle here .... the great fall - the fall from the Pem, the King being Khan, and all his men and horses (AM, FM,etc) ... or am I just of twisted thinking...
then I read all the actual analyses of nursery rhymes
Am I nuts or what? I actually thought DB's post very clever ... I must be nuts or twisted or else I read to many posts on this board. 1500.gif
wow! Now you've mentioned it, the two do add up quite well. In fact id go as far as to say im a genius..... if id meant it. Sadly I was just analysing humpty dumpty and not fulham.
Im confused now.......
No.
pull yourself together danny boi, another dodgy post.
The version I have heard of Humpty Dumpty was that it is from the 1648 siege of Colchester, during the English Civil Wars. The Royalists were occupying the town, Parliament was trying to recapture it. The story goes that one section of the defences were dependent on a large artillery piece, named Humpty Dumpty (guns were given names back then). The Roundheads managed to undermine the part of the wall the gun was placed on, causing it to fall and break, and all the King's men were unable to fix it, so Colchester was successfully stormed.
There is usually a lot of suffering at the heart of most nursery rhymes, when you start to dig deep enough. Which is probably why kiddies enjoy hearing them.
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 05, 2014, 02:11:38 AM
Quote from: mitimo on September 05, 2014, 01:28:27 AM
Did I miss something? While reading the initial post, I was thinking about FFC and the debacle here .... the great fall - the fall from the Pem, the King being Khan, and all his men and horses (AM, FM,etc) ... or am I just of twisted thinking...
then I read all the actual analyses of nursery rhymes
Am I nuts or what? I actually thought DB's post very clever ... I must be nuts or twisted or else I read to many posts on this board. 1500.gif
wow! Now you've mentioned it, the two do add up quite well. In fact id go as far as to say im a genius..... if id meant it. Sadly I was just analysing humpty dumpty and not fulham.
Im confused now.......
You are confused? what do you think the rest of us are?
Quote from: Rupert on September 05, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
The version I have heard of Humpty Dumpty was that it is from the 1648 siege of Colchester, during the English Civil Wars. The Royalists were occupying the town, Parliament was trying to recapture it. The story goes that one section of the defences were dependent on a large artillery piece, named Humpty Dumpty (guns were given names back then). The Roundheads managed to undermine the part of the wall the gun was placed on, causing it to fall and break, and all the King's men were unable to fix it, so Colchester was successfully stormed.
There is usually a lot of suffering at the heart of most nursery rhymes, when you start to dig deep enough. Which is probably why kiddies enjoy hearing them.
Of course nowdays the the thought police would not allow this as it is not condusive to accepting that some people with over active knives and forks may be obese and are being singled out for attention by having a fat gun named after them :005:
They're a learning tool for infants with their roots often in history. Same goes for fairy tales which often have pretty horrific forebears - e.g if you read Grimm in the original.
At least they're more profound than football chants - simple tunes for simple people.
Quote from: Holders on September 05, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
They're a learning tool for infants with their roots often in history. Same goes for fairy tales which often have pretty horrific forebears - e.g if you read Grimm in the original.
At least they're more profound than football chants - simple tunes for simple people.
I love football chants........
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 05, 2014, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Holders on September 05, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
They're a learning tool for infants with their roots often in history. Same goes for fairy tales which often have pretty horrific forebears - e.g if you read Grimm in the original.
At least they're more profound than football chants - simple tunes for simple people.
I love football chants........
Lol
"The grand old Duchess of York, she had ten thousand men..." (allegedly).
Quote from: epsomraver on September 05, 2014, 09:50:26 AM
Quote from: Rupert on September 05, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
The version I have heard of Humpty Dumpty was that it is from the 1648 siege of Colchester, during the English Civil Wars. The Royalists were occupying the town, Parliament was trying to recapture it. The story goes that one section of the defences were dependent on a large artillery piece, named Humpty Dumpty (guns were given names back then). The Roundheads managed to undermine the part of the wall the gun was placed on, causing it to fall and break, and all the King's men were unable to fix it, so Colchester was successfully stormed.
There is usually a lot of suffering at the heart of most nursery rhymes, when you start to dig deep enough. Which is probably why kiddies enjoy hearing them.
Of course nowdays the the thought police would not allow this as it is not condusive to accepting that some people with over active knives and forks may be obese and are being singled out for attention by having a fat gun named after them :005:
The Grimm fairy tales have already been sanitised and cleaned up for us adults as we know. Other stories that I enjoyed as a kid have been banned. Many things that were looked on as entertaining even twenty or thirty years ago are frowned upon and ridiculed now. Humpty might just as well be a story about 'taking offence' and not being able to recover from the insults.
Quote from: Lighthouse on September 05, 2014, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: epsomraver on September 05, 2014, 09:50:26 AM
Quote from: Rupert on September 05, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
The version I have heard of Humpty Dumpty was that it is from the 1648 siege of Colchester, during the English Civil Wars. The Royalists were occupying the town, Parliament was trying to recapture it. The story goes that one section of the defences were dependent on a large artillery piece, named Humpty Dumpty (guns were given names back then). The Roundheads managed to undermine the part of the wall the gun was placed on, causing it to fall and break, and all the King's men were unable to fix it, so Colchester was successfully stormed.
There is usually a lot of suffering at the heart of most nursery rhymes, when you start to dig deep enough. Which is probably why kiddies enjoy hearing them.
Of course nowdays the the thought police would not allow this as it is not condusive to accepting that some people with over active knives and forks may be obese and are being singled out for attention by having a fat gun named after them :005:
The Grimm fairy tales have already been sanitised and cleaned up for us adults as we know. Other stories that I enjoyed as a kid have been banned. Many things that were looked on as entertaining even twenty or thirty years ago are frowned upon and ridiculed now. Humpty might just as well be a story about 'taking offence' and not being able to recover from the insults.
Yes, you're right, you have to go back to the originals - which I have somewhere, I was going to look up the date but I can't find it.
So many other things have been sanitised and PC'd.
Oh I'm really interested in reading the original Grimm fairy tales, must look that up
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 05, 2014, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Holders on September 05, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
They're a learning tool for infants with their roots often in history. Same goes for fairy tales which often have pretty horrific forebears - e.g if you read Grimm in the original.
At least they're more profound than football chants - simple tunes for simple people.
I love football chants........
I don't takes too long to learn the words :005:
Quote from: Berserker on September 05, 2014, 10:53:34 AM
Oh I'm really interested in reading the original Grimm fairy tales, must look that up
I've got two volumes of the original somewhere but can't find them since I've moved. Also four volumes of "British Folk Tales" (author Briggs) which might be more accessible than Grimm in 18th or 19th century German. .
I used to ask questions like these and there actually two answers.
1. some nursery rhymes have value in helping with alphabet skills and more usually numeracy, such as 10 in a bed and 5 little speckled frogs.
2. But the more classic stuff was largely based on historical stuff so seems less relevant today. The grand old duke for instance, really did do all that marching, some said because he was mad, but actually he did it to make a valid political point that for the love of me I cannot quite recall and am not about to look up. For these, the value now is considered in parent and child joining in together witha bit of fun and teaching culture. Whatever you do with an infant that is a joint activity whether singing, reading going to the park, taking them to see fulham play.
Actually as the child grows older it is uinteresting to look up and discuss the origins of the rhymes and that heps start an interest in history.
BUT they are of great value.
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:15:04 AM
I used to ask questions like these and there actually two answers.
1. some nursery rhymes have value in helping with alphabet skills and more usually numeracy, such as 10 in a bed and 5 little speckled frogs.
2. But the more classic stuff was largely based on historical stuff so seems less relevant today. The grand old duke for instance, really did do all that marching, some said because he was mad, but actually he did it to make a valid political point that for the love of me I cannot quite recall and am not about to look up. For these, the value now is considered in parent and child joining in together witha bit of fun and teaching culture. Whatever you do with an infant that is a joint activity whether singing, reading going to the park, taking them to see fulham play.
Actually as the child grows older it is uinteresting to look up and discuss the origins of the rhymes and that heps start an interest in history.
BUT they are of great value.
The words of the Nursery rhyme are believed to refer to Richard, Duke of York, claimant to the English throne and Protector of England and the Battle of Wakefield on December 30, 1460. The Duke of York and his army marched to his castle at Sandal where Richard took up a defensive position against the Lancastrian army. Sandal Castle was built on top of the site of an old Norman motte and bailey fortress. Its massive earthworks stood 33 feet (10m) above the original ground level ("he marched them up to the top of the hill"). In a moment of madness he left his stronghold in the castle and went down to make a direct attack on the Lancastrians " he marched them down again". His army was overwhelmed and Richard the Duke of York was killed. A similar Nursery rhyme is The King of France went up the hill.
Quote from: epsomraver on September 05, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:15:04 AM
I used to ask questions like these and there actually two answers.
1. some nursery rhymes have value in helping with alphabet skills and more usually numeracy, such as 10 in a bed and 5 little speckled frogs.
2. But the more classic stuff was largely based on historical stuff so seems less relevant today. The grand old duke for instance, really did do all that marching, some said because he was mad, but actually he did it to make a valid political point that for the love of me I cannot quite recall and am not about to look up. For these, the value now is considered in parent and child joining in together witha bit of fun and teaching culture. Whatever you do with an infant that is a joint activity whether singing, reading going to the park, taking them to see fulham play.
Actually as the child grows older it is uinteresting to look up and discuss the origins of the rhymes and that heps start an interest in history.
BUT they are of great value.
The words of the Nursery rhyme are believed to refer to Richard, Duke of York, claimant to the English throne and Protector of England and the Battle of Wakefield on December 30, 1460. The Duke of York and his army marched to his castle at Sandal where Richard took up a defensive position against the Lancastrian army. Sandal Castle was built on top of the site of an old Norman motte and bailey fortress. Its massive earthworks stood 33 feet (10m) above the original ground level ("he marched them up to the top of the hill"). In a moment of madness he left his stronghold in the castle and went down to make a direct attack on the Lancastrians " he marched them down again". His army was overwhelmed and Richard the Duke of York was killed. A similar Nursery rhyme is The King of France went up the hill.
Amazingly interesting explanation, and not the one as told to me. I know many of these rhymes have multiple conflicting possible explanations and the one I had heard was more of a political point than necessarily factual event, and as I said I cannot quite recall the context. I will try and find it later (I am supposed to be working now but I feel sure the boss will indulge me for this cultural exchange).
Isn't it strange how the OP asked an apparently innocent question and her we are talking about the Battle of Wakefield.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgie_Porgie (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgie_Porgie)
georgie pordgy nursery rhyme also has historical origins, according to this link
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: epsomraver on September 05, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:15:04 AM
I used to ask questions like these and there actually two answers.
1. some nursery rhymes have value in helping with alphabet skills and more usually numeracy, such as 10 in a bed and 5 little speckled frogs.
2. But the more classic stuff was largely based on historical stuff so seems less relevant today. The grand old duke for instance, really did do all that marching, some said because he was mad, but actually he did it to make a valid political point that for the love of me I cannot quite recall and am not about to look up. For these, the value now is considered in parent and child joining in together witha bit of fun and teaching culture. Whatever you do with an infant that is a joint activity whether singing, reading going to the park, taking them to see fulham play.
Actually as the child grows older it is uinteresting to look up and discuss the origins of the rhymes and that heps start an interest in history.
BUT they are of great value.
The words of the Nursery rhyme are believed to refer to Richard, Duke of York, claimant to the English throne and Protector of England and the Battle of Wakefield on December 30, 1460. The Duke of York and his army marched to his castle at Sandal where Richard took up a defensive position against the Lancastrian army. Sandal Castle was built on top of the site of an old Norman motte and bailey fortress. Its massive earthworks stood 33 feet (10m) above the original ground level ("he marched them up to the top of the hill"). In a moment of madness he left his stronghold in the castle and went down to make a direct attack on the Lancastrians " he marched them down again". His army was overwhelmed and Richard the Duke of York was killed. A similar Nursery rhyme is The King of France went up the hill.
Amazingly interesting explanation, and not the one as told to me. I know many of these rhymes have multiple conflicting possible explanations and the one I had heard was more of a political point than necessarily factual event, and as I said I cannot quite recall the context. I will try and find it later (I am supposed to be working now but I feel sure the boss will indulge me for this cultural exchange).
Isn't it strange how the OP asked an apparently innocent question and her we are talking about the Battle of Wakefield.
Isn't this the case with many sayings or common phrases? That over time they have taken on so many alternative plausible, probably equally correct, meanings once you just scratch the surface?
In the same way as certain forms of philosophy (circumventing one of the subjects we're not supposed to discuss on here) were put together so as to accommodate many alternative meanings for different people. It was the best way to secure adherence and put bums on seats. You have to pick it apart to understand it.
What gullible but paradoxically complex creatures we are.
Nursery rhymes are by no means an insult to children's' intelligence, on the contrary they are very abstruse - much more so than football songs which are supposedly for adults!
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 04, 2014, 09:52:14 PM
now im all for pretending an egg is an actual person.
Got a very weird look from those around me at work when I read that. It's been a quiet day. Absolutely in stitches
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: epsomraver on September 05, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
Quote from: nose on September 05, 2014, 11:15:04 AM
I used to ask questions like these and there actually two answers.
1. some nursery rhymes have value in helping with alphabet skills and more usually numeracy, such as 10 in a bed and 5 little speckled frogs.
2. But the more classic stuff was largely based on historical stuff so seems less relevant today. The grand old duke for instance, really did do all that marching, some said because he was mad, but actually he did it to make a valid political point that for the love of me I cannot quite recall and am not about to look up. For these, the value now is considered in parent and child joining in together witha bit of fun and teaching culture. Whatever you do with an infant that is a joint activity whether singing, reading going to the park, taking them to see fulham play.
Actually as the child grows older it is uinteresting to look up and discuss the origins of the rhymes and that heps start an interest in history.
BUT they are of great value.
The words of the Nursery rhyme are believed to refer to Richard, Duke of York, claimant to the English throne and Protector of England and the Battle of Wakefield on December 30, 1460. The Duke of York and his army marched to his castle at Sandal where Richard took up a defensive position against the Lancastrian army. Sandal Castle was built on top of the site of an old Norman motte and bailey fortress. Its massive earthworks stood 33 feet (10m) above the original ground level ("he marched them up to the top of the hill"). In a moment of madness he left his stronghold in the castle and went down to make a direct attack on the Lancastrians " he marched them down again". His army was overwhelmed and Richard the Duke of York was killed. A similar Nursery rhyme is The King of France went up the hill.
Amazingly interesting explanation, and not the one as told to me. I know many of these rhymes have multiple conflicting possible explanations and the one I had heard was more of a political point than necessarily factual event, and as I said I cannot quite recall the context. I will try and find it later (I am supposed to be working now but I feel sure the boss will indulge me for this cultural exchange).
Isn't it strange how the OP asked an apparently innocent question and her we are talking about the Battle of Wakefield.
People probably think that im a numpty for analysing humpty dumpty (little rhyme there). But how refreshing is it to escape the world of felix magath and relegation by discussing something so random. Just because its a fulham forum it doesnt mean every thread has to strictly be about ffc.
The fact so many of you have responded in such an intellectual way suggests maybe you like talking about nursery rhymes more than you thought you would.
As for the battle of wakefield lol...... I never saw that one coming
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 05, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
As for the battle of wakefield lol...... I never saw that one coming
Neither did Richard of York. 093.gif
Quote from: Rupert on September 05, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on September 05, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
As for the battle of wakefield lol...... I never saw that one coming
Neither did Richard of York. 093.gif
Haha so true rupert the bear!
