He came on with 20 minutes to go when we were losing 5-2.
I rate David, but I think he needs to focus on his game. Some of his passes were really sloppy and, considering he was only on for a brief spell with fresh legs, that's not good enough.
He also has a tendency of mucking about a bit in the warmups.
He's seems lacking in focus right now, and that is blocking me from feeling truly sympathetic about his lack of time..
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on October 28, 2014, 11:31:14 PM
He came on with 20 minutes to go when we were losing 5-2.
:plus one:
Didn't understand the logic behind any of the substitutions - especially bringing on Eisfeld with <10 minutes left - we couldn't learn anything from that, surely?
The thing i like about David is his resemblance to Dembele, strong, good touch and can take a man on from midfield, i hope he gets a start in the diamond with Parker behind.
Bringing him on then might have been to sharpen him up a little for Sat
at Wigan. (Maybe Kit has him down to play there from start)
I suspect he's too Bullardesque in his head to give the type of disciplined midfield performance Symons wants.
Discussing Ruiz after the game B+W Geezer and I both agreed that he wasn't lacking effort or discipline but what we weren't getting were the sort of forward passing that opens up the opposition. David might do that better but at the risk of exposing the defence. I don't care what others say or think Ruiz actually is very good at that aspect of the game.
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
Ruiz was quite good - but he had Zverotic and Hyndman behind him who were poor - and Hoogland out of position on the right exposing the midfield even more
I wonder if people notice, when ruiz challenges for a ball, he makes a movement to make it seem he is going for it, but barely ever does, and wins it on even fewer occasions. he runs about a lot in defensive positions without achieving anything, im not talking about just yesterday. im talking since he joined.
Quote from: Baszab on October 29, 2014, 09:07:15 AM
Ruiz was quite good - but he had Zverotic and Hyndman behind him who were poor - and Hoogland out of position on the right exposing the midfield even more
Thought that Zverotic was OK actually.
Hoogland didnt look interested..
Lets not turn this into anothe Ruiz thread, there are enough of them already.
Chris David has always looked useful when he's played, although IMHO prone to overdo things a bit (his dive against palace last season). Kit knows his play and obviously sees things we don't about him. May be his attitude at training does him no favours. However come the January transfer window there may be a place in the team for him.
Hope he doesn't move in, from what little I've seen of him, there is a lot of talent waiting to get out.
David was incredibly disappointing when he came on. Compare his 20 minutes with McCormack's who wanted to get so involved he actually pushed Hoogland out of the way at one point.
I'm sure David will be off to Holland in January.
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
Nonsense.
I thought David showed why he should at worst be on the bench each game, showed skill and composure on the ball playing some clever passes and tried to push us forward.
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
I'm matching it to someone who can't seem to play a forward ball of any danger to anyone
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
85% pass accuracy doing what though?
David has a terrible attitude so why should anyone have any sympathy for him????
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
I'm matching it to someone who can't seem to play a forward ball of any danger to anyone
So you are then. If we take a larger perspective, does that player offer more than the odd great looking forward pass? The objective argument is, yes. The stats agree with this. I recall David losing the ball on a number of occasions, does anyone have his pass completion rate for teh game? I might be wrong but i'd say it isn't as high as 85%.
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 09:18:15 AM
I wonder if people notice, when ruiz challenges for a ball, he makes a movement to make it seem he is going for it, but barely ever does, and wins it on even fewer occasions. he runs about a lot in defensive positions without achieving anything, im not talking about just yesterday. im talking since he joined.
i suppose i dreamnt ruiz tackle that lead to dembeles second goal then
Quote from: fulhamben on October 29, 2014, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 09:18:15 AM
I wonder if people notice, when ruiz challenges for a ball, he makes a movement to make it seem he is going for it, but barely ever does, and wins it on even fewer occasions. he runs about a lot in defensive positions without achieving anything, im not talking about just yesterday. im talking since he joined.
i suppose i dreamnt ruiz tackle that lead to dembeles second goal then
Or perhaps its just a false point created to suit an agenda. Who knows.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:45:30 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
I'm matching it to someone who can't seem to play a forward ball of any danger to anyone
So you are then. If we take a larger perspective, does that player offer more than the odd great looking forward pass? The objective argument is, yes. The stats agree with this. I recall David losing the ball on a number of occasions, does anyone have his pass completion rate for teh game? I might be wrong but i'd say it isn't as high as 85%.
they both lose the ball.... But that was not what I was talking about.
was it ruiz that flicked it over for dembele who nearly scored a move that was close to ronaldos goal against liverpool
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:50:51 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:45:30 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 29, 2014, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 29, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
That one pass to McCormack shows why he should be in the team. It was a positive pass into the box something another certain player can't seem to do.
Are you matching it to a player that has a 85% pass accuracy by any chance??
I'm matching it to someone who can't seem to play a forward ball of any danger to anyone
So you are then. If we take a larger perspective, does that player offer more than the odd great looking forward pass? The objective argument is, yes. The stats agree with this. I recall David losing the ball on a number of occasions, does anyone have his pass completion rate for teh game? I might be wrong but i'd say it isn't as high as 85%.
they both lose the ball.... But that was not what I was talking about.
The passing statistics suggest David loses the ball more than the other. Do you compromise ball retention for the odd great forward pass? Not for me. I really rate David but I know who I prefer.
Quote from: SouthfieldWhite on October 29, 2014, 12:44:47 PM
David has a terrible attitude so why should anyone have any sympathy for him????
Ah, now that is interesting. There is no way most of us would know that (though some are reckoning it) but you are known on here for having genuine connections at Motspur. Can any more be said?
Quote from: epsomraver on October 29, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
We rarely agree but I actually thought Ruiz played well.
I only saw the first half and last 10 minutes.
Having said that he's not the 'long term' answer
Ruiz played well, pressing is just not the best aspect of his game and clearly he had been asked by Kit to set an example on this front against Derby as the most senior player....
On a positive note it did lead to Dembele's goal, oh and the free kick just before the penalty gift from Hoog.....!
You could clearly see he was putting in some effort, it's just not his style, he needs to be left floating about up top with the striker to work his magic.
Quote from: epsomraver on October 29, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
I am fed up with the "don't know what game you were watching" comment. It implies only your opinion is valid, and Ruiz divides opinion like no other player I have known. I was there and have watched the whole game again on the computer. Now it wasn't Ruiz's worst game by a stretch, but it hardly qualifies as a "good game". How you can dismiss any view other than your own on the basis of what I have seen amazes me. This was also the view of many people around me at the stadium ..and they were watching the same game as me ....don't know about you.
Quote from: Whitesideup on October 30, 2014, 01:39:20 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on October 29, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
I am fed up with the "don't know what game you were watching" comment. It implies only your opinion is valid, and Ruiz divides opinion like no other player I have known. I was there and have watched the whole game again on the computer. Now it wasn't Ruiz's worst game by a stretch, but it hardly qualifies as a "good game". How you can dismiss any view other than your own on the basis of what I have seen amazes me. This was also the view of many people around me at the stadium ..and they were watching the same game as me ....don't know about you.
I agree with Epsom that your view is nonsense. Its a view, but a view I take very little validity from and one your perfectly entitled to. I've had a few discussions with the same kind of people with this view and its always the same. He's too lightweight, not worth the money, doesn't win 50/50 tackles. In my subtle view, its boring and shows a limited perspective of the modern game.
I've seen nothing of him but is Smith going to get a go sometime soon?
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 30, 2014, 01:56:39 PM
Quote from: Whitesideup on October 30, 2014, 01:39:20 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on October 29, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
I am fed up with the "don't know what game you were watching" comment. It implies only your opinion is valid, and Ruiz divides opinion like no other player I have known. I was there and have watched the whole game again on the computer. Now it wasn't Ruiz's worst game by a stretch, but it hardly qualifies as a "good game". How you can dismiss any view other than your own on the basis of what I have seen amazes me. This was also the view of many people around me at the stadium ..and they were watching the same game as me ....don't know about you.
I agree with Epsom that your view is nonsense. Its a view, but a view I take very little validity from and one your perfectly entitled to. I've had a few discussions with the same kind of people with this view and its always the same. He's too lightweight, not worth the money, doesn't win 50/50 tackles. In my subtle view, its boring and shows a limited perspective of the modern game.
My real point was that people shouldn't get on their high horses and be dismissive of others' views. So you missed the point entirely, and then did exactly the same thing. Your enhanced levels of perception were clearly not up to this.
Please tell me, there are lots of comments on here about players in wrong position, wrong players on the pitch, in light of comments on previous managers does this in fact make Kit clueless?.
Quote from: Whitesideup on October 30, 2014, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 30, 2014, 01:56:39 PM
Quote from: Whitesideup on October 30, 2014, 01:39:20 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on October 29, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: Zu-Meister on October 29, 2014, 08:54:04 AM
he hasnt had a game in ages, probably accounts for his couple of mistakes. but he has energy, skill and vision. releases the ball quick too. better than ruiz all day long.
That is nonsense, Ruiz had a good game last night although getting pushed and pulled about, I really wonder what game some people watch, if they did even
I am fed up with the "don't know what game you were watching" comment. It implies only your opinion is valid, and Ruiz divides opinion like no other player I have known. I was there and have watched the whole game again on the computer. Now it wasn't Ruiz's worst game by a stretch, but it hardly qualifies as a "good game". How you can dismiss any view other than your own on the basis of what I have seen amazes me. This was also the view of many people around me at the stadium ..and they were watching the same game as me ....don't know about you.
I agree with Epsom that your view is nonsense. Its a view, but a view I take very little validity from and one your perfectly entitled to. I've had a few discussions with the same kind of people with this view and its always the same. He's too lightweight, not worth the money, doesn't win 50/50 tackles. In my subtle view, its boring and shows a limited perspective of the modern game.
My real point was that people shouldn't get on their high horses and be dismissive of others' views. So you missed the point entirely, and then did exactly the same thing. Your enhanced levels of perception were clearly not up to this.
Oh, that dismissive tone was intended. I just wanted to reinforce the point that its ridiculous to suggest what you did regardless of the entitlement you hold to slag off a player for no valid reason.
David is a rare talent but showed his 'rust' brought on at that time. I feel he probably thought it wasn't worth it, so wasn't concentrating a tad. Stupid substitutions for a stupid team selection.
Rate David, from what I've seen looks a top player and hopefully he gets some more 1st team opportunities
I think before he can be judged, he needs a run of games but not in front of Ruiz. Ruiz will leave in January and his natural replacement is David I think.
David looks a talent that's for sure, but if the rumoured attitude problems are true I would guess that's why Kit isn't picking him. Shame but understandable if true
If David is the natural replacement for Ruiz, then why isnt he on the bench?
End this discussion. David would be in the team if Kit believed he had the right to be. He must be lacking something, or we would see more 1st team appearances. Most likely got an attitude problem, or is lacking fitness. Ruiz has quality only topped by RMc, and on his day, can control games. If Ruiz isn't working, simply sub him off. Kit has got our Starting XI sorted now, and David isn't part of it at the moment, so just move on.
The key thing Kit did was to decide on his best team and those he could most rely on as back up and let them grow as a team with only minimal changes.
That means that some players aren't getting game time and maybe deserve it but they can't all play and consistency and stability were absolutely necessary.
There doesn't have to be a reason why David was not in the favoured group beyond the fact that Kit preferred others.
Results show that he got his choices right.
Agreed with the main post. he should be used more and possibly instead of Ruiz who is clearly just seeing his contract out and looked completely disinterested on the pitch.
Quote from: Stefano Okaka Chuka on October 31, 2014, 01:53:19 PM
Agreed with the main post. he should be used more and possibly instead of Ruiz who is clearly just seeing his contract out and looked completely disinterested on the pitch.
Looked disinterested how exactly? He worked at least as hard as anyone else.
Quote from: TonyGilroy on October 31, 2014, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: Stefano Okaka Chuka on October 31, 2014, 01:53:19 PM
Agreed with the main post. he should be used more and possibly instead of Ruiz who is clearly just seeing his contract out and looked completely disinterested on the pitch.
Looked disinterested how exactly? He worked at least as hard as anyone else.
Its these kind of comments that annoy me. No justification fir it, just an agenda against him.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 31, 2014, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: TonyGilroy on October 31, 2014, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: Stefano Okaka Chuka on October 31, 2014, 01:53:19 PM
Agreed with the main post. he should be used more and possibly instead of Ruiz who is clearly just seeing his contract out and looked completely disinterested on the pitch.
Looked disinterested how exactly? He worked at least as hard as anyone else.
Its these kind of comments that annoy me. No justification fir it, just an agenda against him.
I don't have any kind of agenda against Ruiz: but apart from two nice passes and the assist for the goal he didn't offer anything else on the pitch against Derby and it's not like it's the first time. If he was playing football like a demigod I could bear his lack of effort, but he is not a world beater so if he doesn't perform I will criticize him. He looked disinterested in the last couple of games and in both games I couldn't wait for his substitution. David is more lively and energetic and possibly he will stay with us after january, so I'd rather develop a good young player than keep giving second chances to the eternally unconvincing Ruiz.
Preferring David to Ruiz is an opinion.
Saying that Ruiz doesn't work hard on the pitch is simply wrong. He is constantly on the move trying to influence play. He's not an effective tackler but midfielders are often better off not tackling because of the associated risks. Keeping shape and blocking the opposition often works better and Ruiz plays a full role in that.
I don't think that his forward passing is effective enough and David may be better at that but it's more than reasonable for Kit to prefer midfielders who maintain a disciplined shape.
