For Pat Roberts?
Would we accept 10m from Man U or City or whichever big spending club if it were offered? And, should we?
I fear we would. And, realistically, we should. That sale alone could fund three really good Championship players for us.
However, if we could sign him long term and continue easing him into the Championship level and allow him to show he can contribute, he'll be far more valuable.
I just wonder if the club don't feel like they have a very short time window to act if the plan is promotion
Simple answer is this...will he sign a new contract? If yes then keep, if no then take the money.
No we should not, but £20 million maybe.
Hopefully he is signed with us for a few more years and we get to see him play in the first team for a couple of seasons before he does go. It would be a shame not to see him through the whole process from youth to first team.
Next season he will be bigger and stronger.
He has no evidence to prove he will ever make it at Mens level.
He has a year to go on his contract.
We can offer him nothing like the big clubs can both in wages and glory.
Do we really have much choice if someone like that offers 10million? He could turn into a Gareth Bale and be worth a fortune one day but he could easily do a Zaha and freeze on the biggest stage.
If he wants to stay then long lucritive contract and more opportunities next season. If his contract is long he is worth the gamble by not selling but if he doesnt want to sign and my guess is he is probably being tapped up as we speak, then the club have to make something on him and 10 million justifies the investment in the academy in the first place.
I suspect that Roberts hasn't much game time because Fulham want to keep their 'prize asset' under wraps, away from the scything tacklers
that inhabit this league. Little cameos here and there,when defenders are tired,enough to keep him in the shop window,wrapped in cotton wool
for the big pay day.
Like Smalling,I'd say take the dosh,good business for unrealised potential.We may even get him back on loan like Zaha with Palace.
You would hope that those who advise him realise that he would be better staying put for a couple of years to develop further rather than seeing £signs and suggesting he moves for the money.
It's really not that straight forward. Pat Roberts has the potential, or has had (he's had quite a quiet season for both senior team and youth setups) over the years. I have noticed he has had a growth spurt this season though and it does seem to have had some sort of effect on his confidence or ability for the time being at least. period of adjusting.
Being of smaller stature you have a better centre of gravity and also can faint your body a lot easier amongst other things.
The reality is he is still without guarantees - a lot of players have potential but then are found wanting. I've lost count of the amount of players quite early on in my lifetime who should've been great and were hailed as being the next big thing only to dwindle away - anyone remember Francis Jeffers? Once a shining light at Arsenal he quickly let it go to his head and faded away massively. Even David Bentley is one you could say should've done ten times better than he did.
Now the question is, why should he leave? and can we point to other examples for a gauge?
Let's look at Southampton's academy - Walcott, Bale and Oxlade - Chamberlin and even Chambers all plied their trade in the championship, establishing themselves and their quality in the championship before making the step up. It arguably is a better league in which to get that initial experience - it's more physical and requires more physically as well as mentally to get through and in regards to cultivating an attitude which makes him have to work hard, he should see that as a huge benefit to his own personal development. If you lose that competitive edge in football mentally, it can be the undoing of you (as is the case with any professional environment)
He's 17/18 now - on a serious note he's not in any rush apart from the one he puts on himself and if he looks after himself his potential would suggest that his career would last longer than most too (barring significant injuries).
Will he be looked after at Fulham? Yes - will he get game time? Definitely, especially if he makes good on even a portion of his potential. Plus he'll be playing for a team and with a team full of very talented young players who I assume all get on - that's powerful. We only have to look at our Europa League team to know that team spirit counts for just as much as any other facet.
The big thing for him though is his mental preparedness - If it doesn't work out at a top club then will he be able to cope? He wont get proper game time for a year or so at one of these big clubs just yet - they hardly play any of their youth players as it is. So, time at Fulham in a set up he's comfortable with and which knows him and his talents well isn't actually a 'safe' option, it's just an intelligent one.
The pressure is completely different too on the clubs that he could play for and for him at Fulham. Yes it's nice to be playing for a 'big name' or in a club with 'stars' but the pressure for them to get results week in week out could very well close any opportunities he has of playing for them. Do you really think he'd be getting first team football for Man City at the moment with their current poor (by their standards) form? The top of the league is getting even more competitive - throwing in a kid who hasn't developed to a high enough standard isn't really on offer. He'd probably get sent out on loan to a championship club (so what would be the point in leaving in the first place)..
He should clearly know that he can make a significant contribution at his age group and that with time that will just continue to be the case and if that does prove to be the case the world will be at his feet anyway so he would be able to choose should he want to leave then and probably be a lot more developed and mature to make the decision for himself.
At this point in his career these are serious considerations? the reality is that now it's about his own attitude to wanting it enough to succeed rather than which setup he's at. By now he'll be increasingly aware of the tactical side of the game and what's expected of him, it'll be purely down to his ability to deliver.
The other thing is as far as youth set ups (and as a result maintaining a competitive environment which he can work off), you could argue that only Chelsea team wise have come anywhere really close to his friends in the Fulham academy/breaking through to first team. Having a high standard of team and individual skill by which to learn from and push yourself against is a real privilege. Our U21's may not have done as well this season but when you consider the players out on loan or who're injured or part of the first team setup now it's to be expected.
Woodrow I rate very highly, Betinelli has some Naïve moments (his punch on the weekend for instance) but has proven to be very solid. Hyndman and LVC are both potential stars too. Hyndmans distribution and ability to dictate play is impressive whilst LVC has been my man of the season for his impact (apart from McCormack). Then you have George Williams (who's already playing for Wales whilst at the club).
Then you have eisfeld and David, Dembele coming through the ranks and Plumain - he'll be all too aware of their ability. Kavanagh, Grimmer, Hutchinson.
So in short, he's got possibly close to two decades of playing time ahead of him. He's at a club which know him well and in which he's surrounded by people and players who value him and where he can also get full playing experience in a league which will set him up well if he succeeds in it.
Fulham may have had an average to poor season, no one will deny that, but in the same breath they will also unanimously acknowledge that on our day we're a match for any club in the league and have a lot more potential too. Still haven't seen half the squad play.
Presumably any contract he signs with us could have an release clause and any sale price could have add-ons for various milestones and also a percentage of any sell-on fee to us. There are so many variables and the main determinant will be Roberts' wishes. If he refuses a new contract whatever it includes then surely it would be better to take the money and run than have him go for nothing next year.
That said I hope he reads General's lengthy post reminding him of some of the advantages of staying. I also wonder how much of his decision will depend on who's manager next season.
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on April 27, 2015, 02:33:42 PM
He has no evidence to prove he will ever make it at Mens level.
He has a year to go on his contract.
We can offer him nothing like the big clubs can both in wages and glory.
Do we really have much choice if someone like that offers 10million? He could turn into a Gareth Bale and be worth a fortune one day but he could easily do a Zaha and freeze on the biggest stage.
If he wants to stay then long lucritive contract and more opportunities next season. If his contract is long he is worth the gamble by not selling but if he doesnt want to sign and my guess is he is probably being tapped up as we speak, then the club have to make something on him and 10 million justifies the investment in the academy in the first place.
I agree with Danny, I'd take the money as there is no evidence on what will happen in the future with Roberts.
The deal that i would make though would see him return to us on Loan for the season, plus a percentage of
a sell on fee.
My thoughts on another post which it was suggested a deal where Fofana was involved + Cash to me that wouldn't be good. As in my opinion I don't think Fofana is any better than what we got at the moment.
Where we should be looking at improving the squad from this season.
Bird in the hand...I'd say yes I'm afraid. With a clause guaranteeing a slice of any sell-on
Pat Roberts playing for us next season will not get us promoted.
10 million pounds, along with whatever we're able to pony up now, will.
Good youth player, but so are a lot of young lads. If he wants to sign a contract, then by all means keep him. But if not, thanks for the double figures.
Sell him to one of the big boys for cash plus a season long loan of one their better squad players with us paying zero wages.
Terry Tibbs.
No
Quote from: General on April 27, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
It's really not that straight forward. Pat Roberts has the potential, or has had (he's had quite a quiet season for both senior team and youth setups) over the years. I have noticed he has had a growth spurt this season though and it does seem to have had some sort of effect on his confidence or ability for the time being at least. period of adjusting.
Being of smaller stature you have a better centre of gravity and also can faint your body a lot easier amongst other things.
The reality is he is still without guarantees - a lot of players have potential but then are found wanting. I've lost count of the amount of players quite early on in my lifetime who should've been great and were hailed as being the next big thing only to dwindle away - anyone remember Francis Jeffers? Once a shining light at Arsenal he quickly let it go to his head and faded away massively. Even David Bentley is one you could say should've done ten times better than he did.
Now the question is, why should he leave? and can we point to other examples for a gauge?
Let's look at Southampton's academy - Walcott, Bale and Oxlade - Chamberlin and even Chambers all plied their trade in the championship, establishing themselves and their quality in the championship before making the step up. It arguably is a better league in which to get that initial experience - it's more physical and requires more physically as well as mentally to get through and in regards to cultivating an attitude which makes him have to work hard, he should see that as a huge benefit to his own personal development. If you lose that competitive edge in football mentally, it can be the undoing of you (as is the case with any professional environment)
He's 17/18 now - on a serious note he's not in any rush apart from the one he puts on himself and if he looks after himself his potential would suggest that his career would last longer than most too (barring significant injuries).
Will he be looked after at Fulham? Yes - will he get game time? Definitely, especially if he makes good on even a portion of his potential. Plus he'll be playing for a team and with a team full of very talented young players who I assume all get on - that's powerful. We only have to look at our Europa League team to know that team spirit counts for just as much as any other facet.
The big thing for him though is his mental preparedness - If it doesn't work out at a top club then will he be able to cope? He wont get proper game time for a year or so at one of these big clubs just yet - they hardly play any of their youth players as it is. So, time at Fulham in a set up he's comfortable with and which knows him and his talents well isn't actually a 'safe' option, it's just an intelligent one.
The pressure is completely different too on the clubs that he could play for and for him at Fulham. Yes it's nice to be playing for a 'big name' or in a club with 'stars' but the pressure for them to get results week in week out could very well close any opportunities he has of playing for them. Do you really think he'd be getting first team football for Man City at the moment with their current poor (by their standards) form? The top of the league is getting even more competitive - throwing in a kid who hasn't developed to a high enough standard isn't really on offer. He'd probably get sent out on loan to a championship club (so what would be the point in leaving in the first place)..
He should clearly know that he can make a significant contribution at his age group and that with time that will just continue to be the case and if that does prove to be the case the world will be at his feet anyway so he would be able to choose should he want to leave then and probably be a lot more developed and mature to make the decision for himself.
At this point in his career these are serious considerations? the reality is that now it's about his own attitude to wanting it enough to succeed rather than which setup he's at. By now he'll be increasingly aware of the tactical side of the game and what's expected of him, it'll be purely down to his ability to deliver.
The other thing is as far as youth set ups (and as a result maintaining a competitive environment which he can work off), you could argue that only Chelsea team wise have come anywhere really close to his friends in the Fulham academy/breaking through to first team. Having a high standard of team and individual skill by which to learn from and push yourself against is a real privilege. Our U21's may not have done as well this season but when you consider the players out on loan or who're injured or part of the first team setup now it's to be expected.
Woodrow I rate very highly, Betinelli has some Naïve moments (his punch on the weekend for instance) but has proven to be very solid. Hyndman and LVC are both potential stars too. Hyndmans distribution and ability to dictate play is impressive whilst LVC has been my man of the season for his impact (apart from McCormack). Then you have George Williams (who's already playing for Wales whilst at the club).
Then you have eisfeld and David, Dembele coming through the ranks and Plumain - he'll be all too aware of their ability. Kavanagh, Grimmer, Hutchinson.
So in short, he's got possibly close to two decades of playing time ahead of him. He's at a club which know him well and in which he's surrounded by people and players who value him and where he can also get full playing experience in a league which will set him up well if he succeeds in it.
Fulham may have had an average to poor season, no one will deny that, but in the same breath they will also unanimously acknowledge that on our day we're a match for any club in the league and have a lot more potential too. Still haven't seen half the squad play.
Good and well thought out report, it certainly highlights lots of different aspects of his current and future potential career.
AS you say there is no rush to sign for a club that's going to hype him up and maybe sit him on the bench if he's lucky.
Playing time next year in the first team is crucial.
Ego is also a big factor.
The lad says he wants to play. Will he have more chance of that with us. Yes. If his agent is blinded by a mega pay day for himself & Pat goes to one of the big clubs he will not get near the bench for years if at all. These big clubs just buy up any kid that shows a bit of class just to stop the others getting him.
My advice to him would be to sign a new 4 year contract at sensible wages, bulk up, carry on learning the game & be patient. He will then be in his early 20´s & that would be the time to consider a move.
If he does sign I would like to think that the club puts a £25 million buy out clause in place.
Yes...He done nothing yet to be anywhere near that value im afraid.
But on the other hand I'd like him to stay and see if the hype becomes reality...
Quote from: JDH101 on April 27, 2015, 06:09:41 PM
Sell him to one of the big boys for cash plus a season long loan of one their better squad players with us paying zero wages.
Terry Tibbs.
+ Roberts back on loan for a year or three.
The thing that has always baffled me with the argument that he isnt ready and should carry on bulking up is he is not a sean kavanagh. Roberts is allegedly one of the best players in his age group with the potential to be world class. Now if you're genuinely that good how on earth can you not even make our bench?
Owen, Rooney, Walcott all played in International tournaments at 17. Well Walcott was 16 and never played but he had a cap for England by then because he played for Saints at 16. Oxlade Chamberlain got a move to Arsenal by playing for Saints at 17, Shaw got a move to Utd by playing at 17 and all of these were regulars might I add not just bench warmers. Sterling is another one. The list goes on and on..... Wilfred Zaha, James Milner at leeds was just 16 when he broke into the first team. Phil Jones, Gerrard, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, Neville, Barkley.
If Roberts is genuinely that good then not playing him is preventing his development and wasting our best prospect. I find it fulhamish that we have this wonderkid that we all love and others are fighting to sign. The type that come along once in a blue moon for a club like us and we will never see him play properly in a fulham shirt and probably lose him for peanuts. Not good enough for a mediocre championship side but man utd and liverpool will bite your hand off lol
It's a tough one he is a top talent if he signs a new deal & gets game time I would be very happy but at this moment in time I would say take the money & strengthen our team with 3 good Championship level players
10 Million, you can't be serious??? As much as all the hype I have read about the lad, I haven't seen anything really out of the ordinary that (so far) makes him a great player! I hope I am wrong though, if he stays we probably won't be any wiser for maybe 2 seasons, if any club is willing to pay 10 million then I say sell him as surely we can buy 2 experienced players with Championship experience for that money.
Quote from: Twig on April 27, 2015, 01:51:00 PM
For Pat Roberts?
Would we accept 10m from Man U or City or whichever big spending club if it were offered? And, should we?
We should take the money.
At the moment I am afraid Roberts is still mostly potential - and we may unfortunately not be the right club to get him to the next level as we could still struggle next season.
So I regretfully must say take the money. We need to invest in the right, new players for next season.
Would have been a different scenario if this had been a successful season overall.
Yes - But only if we get like a + 10-20% resell value and if we where to put ALL the money into reinvestment on new players.
I haven't seen the genius that he is supposed to be. In the little we have seen of him he looks light weight, head down but tricky. Like Dembele I think he isn't there yet. Fofana up the middle looks decent going forward. But we really can't tell yet if any of the promise will turn into success.
Fofana is clearly closer to the finished article however.
10mill is wishful thinking. If it was offered sell him and as mentioned above get clauses on resell or appearances or maybe first refusal in the future.
I would take £10M plus Fofana with 10% sell on, like others have said at the moment he isn't that great of a player. Hasn't been tearing it up in U21s like he did in the U18s. What if he never comes good? That said if he accepts and 5 year contract than I would prefer that. But I would want that sorted before the beginning of next season.
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on April 27, 2015, 06:15:25 PM
Quote from: JDH101 on April 27, 2015, 06:09:41 PM
Sell him to one of the big boys for cash plus a season long loan of one their better squad players with us paying zero wages.
Terry Tibbs.
+ Roberts back on loan for a year or three.
But would he feature?
Take the money and run.
